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Comment by vgchh | Hacker News Reader

Tesla is no longer a novelty. They just manufactured the millionth car. I own a model 3 and people ask me how do I like it. My usual answer is that I have "no compelling reason" to buy an ICE car - ever. Despite all the free marketing that Tesla gets, I don't think people grok how good the car actually drives in real. You really need to experience living with it to appreciate why it's a game changer.

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You think it's more of a game changer than the $8500 used Nissan Leaf I bought (which, before you start, is perfect for me because I use it around town, and yes it works fine for 95+% of my car trips, including 100% of my commuting miles)?

I'll tell you something. I'm sure enjoying having that extra $60k in my bank account that I saved by not buying a horribly overpriced depreciating asset.

You're just making a general argument about buying used vs new. That's not interesting, or revelatory. It's just overly judgmental.

And you're quite off on the price of a Model 3. I think you're confusing it for the Model S.

$60k that he claims is much closer to the ASP than the $35k that Tesla claims.

It’s impossible to buy a used Tesla for anywhere close to $8500. I find the comparison compelling.

Because they're better cars than the Leaf and thus maintain resale value better. The Leaf isn't coming out on top in this comparison. There's a reason some things are worth more than others.

Friend of mine is a Leaf enthusiast and even he concedes it's pretty awful. It could have been great, but the batteries degrade so fast you can practically watch the range decrease with every drive.

You're not going to sway the people who were going to be buying a BMW or Mercedes with that argument.

Car buying is a LOT of signalling. There is a reason for the stereotypes surrounding people who buy those types of cars.

> You're not going to sway the people who were going to be buying a BMW or Mercedes with that argument.

Did you not read the article?

Also: https://twitter.com/thirdrowtesla/status/1236678690462765057

The comment I was replying to was extolling the virtues of buying a Nissan Leaf.

The people interested in buying a BMW are not going to be swayed by "cost effectiveness" arguments.

What's the range on the used leaf you bought? Maybe 100 miles without AC/heating? There's a reason why the Leaf didn't succeed in the way Tesla did, and it's not all because of Musk.

Also, a new model 3 is 40k, and Teslas depreciate a lot less than a Nissan. But I do agree that buying brand new is generally a bad idea imo

Buying a used Tesla might not be a great choice, because they've locked it down so you're forced to use their repair shops instead of 3rd party. That's going to increase your cash outlay in a way you weren't expecting.

Most common car repairs 2015:

Replacing an oxygen sensor – $249 - Teslas don't have these

Replacing a catalytic converter – $1,153 - Teslas don't have these

Replacing ignition coil(s) and spark plug(s) – $390 - Teslas don't have these

Tightening or replacing a fuel cap – $15 - Teslas have a charging port cover, and it breaks

Thermostat replacement – $210 - Teslas don't have these (in engines)

Replacing ignition coil(s) – $236 - Teslas don't have these

Mass air flow sensor replacement – $382 - Teslas don't have these

Replacing spark plug wire(s) and spark plug(s) – $331 - Teslas don't have these

Replacing evaporative emissions (EVAP) purge control valve – $168 - Teslas don't have these

Replacing evaporate emissions (EVAP) purging solenoid – $184 - Teslas don't have these

And how much is a replacement battery pack? - ICE don't have those

Mostly irrelevant, because it’ll last longer than the lifetime of almost any ICE car.

I like my Model 3 pretty well, but maintenance cost is a losing argument at this point, still. So far, the real world numbers show that Teslas cost more to maintain than a similar ICE car. It may eventually be true that the simplicity of an EV means lower maintenance costs, but we are not their yet.

That's equivalent to replacing an ICE engine/transmission, how often does that happen, and how much does that cost? It's a moot point, ICE cars lose that one by default.

Secondly, it's not just the pure monetary value. We have four cars in a family of six, and despite my brother being good with the wrench, ICE manufacturers have made it incredibly time consuming and difficult to do even the most basic maintenance work outside of maybe oil changes and brake pads. HUGE dealership service costs are practically unavoidable with modern ICE cars despite improvements in reliability to previous eras. The peace of mind and reliability gained from having fewer mechanical problems is invaluable. I'm gladly willing to pay MORE for electric cars in their current state to not have to deal with dealerships and mechanics. They're only going to get better.

Thirdly, I've been in the market for a new car for the past year. Driving assistance on motorways and London like traffic where you spend hours daily are a huge help. Virtually every viable option right now is a baby compared to Tesla's autopilot. Although this could be improved upon, I have no trust in ICE manufacturers to make any meaningful strides to catch up anytime soon. They're still figuring out android auto (which is a must because their proprietary tech is equivalent to a kick in the balls). The new kid on the block is just doing it better.

Lastly, a decade-ish old company/tech here warrants serious discussion in its CURRENT state compared to giants that are decades old, and they have no answer so far. ICE Vs electric is a forgone conclusion at this point, but I wish other manufacturers catch up to the trend sooner rather than later because that's ultimately better for us consumers. I'm not a fan of Tesla's Apple like views on product ownership in regards to repairs etc. But sadly, their current offering is far better than competition so we have no choice.

You missed my point completely. The comment I responded to cherry-picked a large list of items that didn't apply to electric cars, so I cherry-picked an example that didn't apply to ICE cars. Neither example is really relevant to the point I started with, which is that Tesla in particular is locking you into their repair centers in a way that is new to the car industry.

If you have common ICE car, it is very inexpensive to keep it running when you can wrench yourself. I spent less than $600 in 15 years and 160k miles for all parts to repair 2005 Malibu. I had to go to dealer once, because ABS control module is locked. You need dealer codes and 'programming'. $240 for 15 minutes work.

For 2005 Malibu:

Oxygen sensors: one is $19, still running on originals.

Catalytic Converters: one side Carb Compliant $319, still running on originals

Spark plugs: Iridium NGK 6*$5, took me 1 hour to replace

Thermostat: $4 + $3 shipping, 15 minutes to replace

Mass air flow sensor: still original $62

Prices from RockAuto.

Define "didn't". The 1st generation Nissan Leaf in 2011 was was pretty terrible, but they kept making them, and brand new ones (since 2017) are actually quite nice, with more power and 200 miles of range. Definitely not Model S nice, but luxury cars are a totally different segment. There's room in the car industry for Nissan making the economy electric car and Tesla in the luxury or up-market segment.

AFAIK the current Leaf still has terrible battery management, so I wouldn't plan on it holding value any better than the ones made 10 years ago.

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