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Comment by WalterBright | Hacker News Reader

> Most of the value of an elite education is signaling

Not in my case (Caltech). It was clear when I got an industry job that a BS from Caltech was at about the same level as an MS from other institutions. But if the institution is large enough, one can get an elite education by careful selection of the classes and professors, and doing the maximum in those classes rather than just getting by.

For example, take honors calculus, not weeder calculus. Don't avoid the math heavy classes. Don't waste your time with easy-A classes. If you don't find yourself studying 6 hours a day, you're not getting an elite education.

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> If you don't find yourself studying 6 hours a day, you're not getting an elite education.

Seems like an unhealthy attitude to me. I really dislike the perspective that education is at its best when the learning is most difficult. The best teachers are the ones that make things as clear and digestible as possible. Bad teachers are the ones that want to see you sweat.

It isn't about wanting to torture students. I never learned so much so fast before or since - and there was a lot to learn. I prefer teachers that expect a lot from their students.

It's not fundamentally different from athletics. If you want to be a good athlete, you're going to have to work your tail off. If you want to be an incredible engineer like Kelly Johnson, that ain't going to happen if you party through school. Nor would you have any chance of working with an engineer like him.

So ask yourself - do you want to design rocket engines? or cup holders?

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BTW, as for health, I came out of Caltech a far more confident person than when I entered. I knew what I could do, and was happy about it.

It's wrong to treat the brain like any other muscle. It's more comparable to a neural network (pardon the tautology). You feed in data (knowledge) in hope that some of it sticks and forms new connections that you can use to better tackle new and existing problems. There's no rule of the universe that states that the process of feeding data into the brain has to be challenging.

Now, I'm not arguing that hard work has no merit. Clearly, working hard can increase your rate of knowledge-consumption and get you further faster. For some people, you included it seems, that works out great. For others, the ever-present "110% or bust!" attitude can have serious mental consequences. Accepting that education can happen without rigor won't harm those that intend to push themselves anyway, but it sure would benefit the constantly stressed-out students.

> There's no rule of the universe that states that the process of feeding data into the brain has to be challenging.

No pain, no gain. You're simply not going to become an expert in any field, mental or physical, without a lot of hard work.

> If you don't find yourself studying 6 hours a day, you're not getting an elite education.

This is absolute nonsense and a garbage mentality, akin to gate keeping.

In my experience 4 years at Caltech, the ones who didn't flunked out.

Of course, there were a couple unicorns (like Hal Finney) who didn't study and aced the tests, but they are as far beyond you and I as we are from a first grader. Me, I tried studying less, and it simply did not work.

I also have a friend who flunked out of Caltech. About 10 years later he asked if he could try again, and they said sure. He got straight As this time. I asked him if he was any smarter - he laughed, and said no, just that the second time he was ready to work.

I'd guess that if you attended an elite institution and got a degree without studying 6 hours a day, you're either a unicorn or a victim of the institution's marketing department.

Yikes, I wonder what you think of people like me that couldnt get an elite education.

I don't care if someone has an elite education or not. It's about whether they can do the job or not.

After what you just said, color me skeptical. I went to a state school and got an average-ish CS degree with average-ish internships and research, how far behind am I?

You're already far behind due to your insecurities or Will an internet forum really guide your life ?

An MIT grad will always have more gates open than an NCSU grad. You need to do other things in your career to lessen the gap. There is no moving past this point no matter who you ask. And no the amount of hard work you do doesn't matter. Everyone of the "elite" school students work hard.

> An MIT grad will always have more gates open than an NCSU grad.

In the immortal words of Amy Klobuchar “are you calling me dumb?”

> You need to do other things in your career to lessen the gap.

Such as what exactly?

If you had admits from MIT and NCSU, both full rides, which one would you choose ? Let's see what cognitive dissonance you concoct now.

That wasn’t my question

Answer my question too, what would you choose between the two ? Would brand and prestige play a role in your decision ?

All your posts here disparage higher "brands" than what you have.

I’m not disparaging anything. Only you seem to...

That's neither here nor there really. I'd appreciate an answer!

1. I'm not calling you dumb. 2. It's prestige you're after. It's clear from your answers you want some validation from society. There are brands you can chase - BCG for consulting, Google (no Amazon doesn't carry the same weight), Rhodes scholar etc..

If you're saying Amazon doesn't carry the same weight, you seem to be calling me dumb.

No I am just stating a fact. Also if someone perceives another person to be "better" than you, that doesn't make you dumb. There will always be people smarter than us. If you're chasing validation you can keep going and chasing degrees + institutions.

And now please answer MIT vs NCSU ? If you reply with NCSU then we're done here. No point even discussing with someone who is lying.

I don't see the relevance of this question

Why can't you answer it ?

I stated a fact. You implied it meant you were dumb. The average MIT kid may as well be smarter than the average NCSU kid. But there sure may be NCSU kids smarter than some MIT kids. All of this is relevant to a certain degree. You keep on harping over the same points.

I don't know you, so I have no idea. Your employer and colleagues could give you a better assessment. But I can say that an average grade taking the top classes at school is much better than average grades in the minimum-to-graduate classes.

Education doesn't stop with the degree. Good engineers never stop studying to expand their expertise.

I've been working for several decades with other engineers. It's not too hard to see who are the good ones and who aren't. The "aren't" are the ones who solve problems using trial and error, and when they get it to work they don't bother figuring out why it's working.

The "are" engineers will do whatever is required to find out what is actually wrong, work to understand it, and will do a targeted fix.

What kind of engineer you want to be is entirely up to you.

One thing you can do is take the youtube MIT CS courses. It's free. I've taken some of them to fill in gaps in my education.

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