The Brave browser is brilliant, but probably not for the reasons you think
rudism.com
rudism.com
On the other hand, companies which are supported by user donations act in the best interests of users. This includes websites such as Wikipedia and the Internet Archive.
Brave does offer the option to make a “tip” to websites, but it’s hardly necessary to have Brave be the middleman for all user donations.
Is Wikimedia acting in users best interest? It really doesn't need to beg for your money but it cant get enough of your money? haha
I don't know what it costs to host 250 billion page views per year but they claim 40% is spend on hosting. They have 180 million to spend so hosting would be72 million? 1 dollar would buy 1400 page views? If you simply use a crappy service, say hostinger's 1 usd per month x 12 you get 1200 GB bandwidth. Average wiki articles are 3.6 kb. That is 27 million page views. 20 000 times 1400? I'm not an expert but I imagine hosting on that scale is much cheaper.
It is acting in my interest 1:20000 which is certainly better than selling my personal information to creepy faceless money men.
I would much rather buy access to 250 GB worth of wiki articles for 1 euro but no one figured out the payment model.
Brave does seem lovely until you see them solicit funds in other peoples name without permission. It much seems like [say] collecting funds for Greenpeace but hey! I keep an administrative chunk for myself.
The puzzle is unsolved.
Good luck
If you have a budget to make some donations, please out LE on the top of the list. They are doing a wonderful job and you are will make a massive change.
Ads are just the most friction-free way (from the reader's point of view) to pay for it. You don't have to install anything or connect your bank account. There's a lot wrong with that, including the proliferation of crappy content, but it does fund a lot of the genuine content as well. Both readers and writers want a better way, but results are mixed at best.
I don’t know what’s the answer. Maybe a separate “commercial” internet, sort of shopping internet, where you you accepting the rules and the reward is your attention, time and resources for free content.
I like the "asking the right questions" thing a lot. I'm never quite happy with the question, the way I've put it certainly leaves a lot of room for improvement. My formula is something like: First blow up the "problem" way out of proportion (summarize all parts that are wrong with something) then remove the most unreasonable arguments.
I do lots of things for free both online and offline. Its a gift really, I put in the effort, the time and the money. (I wouldn't call it a business model tho) The problem with this is that I can only do so much. With free software for example people have a drive to make something that works. We get a huge amount of great stuff but with rare exception the end results don't get polished. There is always a lack of effort with boring shit that would add a lot to a project. (I always feel terrible when looking back at the state I abandoned a project in.)
Say you have a product to sell, you have to find ways to find customers. The same goes for gifting free things (like software) So, uhhh... where is the free marketing?
Users expect the product to find them FOR FREE! but this simply doesn't work. If we paid some incredibly small amount to be found by products that are interesting to us we would be far less reluctant to provide the necessary personal details. I own 3 guitars that I never play. There are lots of products that fit that profile. If such a product finder was tied in with say 100 other subscriptions and my ISP billed me for those services it would be something incredibly cheap and worth buying. In stead google charges stores an arm and a leg to chase me with wimmens panties because my deceased mum ordered those 15 year ago. WTF??
People wrote fantastic free software that would have been even better if enough users could find it. Meanwhile the commercial alternative is rubbed in peoples face all day long. I would like to see the "build it and they will come" model work.
Adsense makes a hundred billion in revenue because free doesn't work. This is the puzzle. If you can figure out how to do it for free ill give you 5 internet stars and a standing ovation. Ill be pondering how to do it on the cheap. Call me unambitious ;)
Which I personally have no gripes with.
In any case, the basic dynamic is interesting: the less you pay for things directly, the more power you give up to those who do. The abstraction is largely symbolic for ads (consumers pay advertisers in higher product costs), but apparently where and when money exchanges hands matters to who ultimately has influence.
I'm not sure HN would benefit from requiring a paid subscription. I think that aversion to the aforementioned criticism would be avoided even more, or otherwise replaced with sheer entitlement.
While some of these thoughts are definitely unwelcome, as they should be (we do need boundaries), I'm quite happy to engage with the mixed and low quality non-tech content either to educate myself to other points of view, or to attempt to counter them in the case of misunderstanding. And that's what a good debate is all about.
For me, that's a great experience because I enjoy being given the opportunity to be sensibly proven wrong.
That was back in the early 2000s where if people wanted to protest against a forum's new policy, or a decline in quality, they'd just boot up a fresh instance of phpBB and essentially 'fork' the community. I don't know anyone back then who hadn't had experience setting up and modding a phpBB board, or dealing with vBulletin and Invision Power Board. I kind of miss that because now we just have various SaaS that run managed communities through apps...
There are likely plenty out there, but you're probably looking at niche forums that require some time and investment to become a part of. HN is one of those. Reddit will only offer you so much.
Just think how useful google could be if you could filter out commercial results, or import a domain blocklist, or control the ranking algorithm.
Think how usable social media would be if it weren't a way to turn money into "engagement".
Think how much better news sites would be if journalists weren't dependent on wealthy patrons who have the power to withdraw their funding when they perceive bad or unfair coverage.
The illusion of a service being "free", without giving the user any power to actually dictate what makes a service high or low quality, is ultimately just lowering the bar on what the role of technology should be—it's not just a machine for a small portion of society to have "passive income".
Think how useless social media would be if it primarily connected together wealthy individuals that can pay the upkeep needed to operate a sophisticated global network while those who most need a voice cannot.
Think of how much worse society would be if news required an unpopularly high ad-free fee which meant that the best news organizations catered first and foremost to wealthy and already-educated patrons.
The illusion of a service being "ad-free", without serving the broad but lower class foundation of society, would ultimately just destroy the impact and democratizing power of technology. It's not just a machine for a small portion of wealthy, educated Hacker News elites to pay and keep for themselves.
Advertising influence is surely not all positive, but there is no silver bullet here, and I would consider the wet dream of those who want to get rid of advertising without a practical substitute to be a massive regression. I consider the alignment of profits with breadth of access to be one of the biggest engines of progress in the modern age. A poor child in Detroit and a simple mother in a third world country use the same web browser and internet as the most powerful political leaders and heads of industry. That's the world I want to live in.
That's exactly why they built the whole thing on top of decentralized cryptocurrency.
Brave does not control BAT – it is an ERC-20 token on the Ethereum blockchain. Do they still own much of the BAT in circulation? Yes. But other than tanking the value of the BAT you own by selling all of theirs at once (a silly thing for them to do), there isn't much power they can exert.
You wouldn’t have to pay to host your site or worry about it bogging down if its been posted on reddit or hn, if it is payed for by visiting users out of their monthly bill to their ISP.
Brave, ironically, is one of the few attempts to solve the microtransaction problem.
So the good news is that there is a practical method of microtransactions! The minor downside is that is not C2B, but B2B.
It is adding a dependency on the Brave developers not to mess up and create security holes, in addition to whatever trust you place in the Chrome project itself. (A browser plugin requires somewhat less trust since it's sandboxed, but the permissions are still pretty scary.)
But I guess it's like buying an Android phone from anyone besides Google? Or installing packages from Debian and hoping they fix more security issues than they add, compared to the original developer. It's usually true, but not always.
I think the risk they add from a security perspective offsets the risk Chrome brings from a privacy perspective.
I should really switch browsers on my phone; while brave works OK the fact that their revenue model is broken should signal that they will likely need to do something shady in the future. I never opted in to BAT simply because I figured that maybe 1% of the sites I visit would be opted in to the program. Plus, I'm not going back to watching ads.
Brave with the BAT features turned on still uses its builtin adblock.
From there, I think you need to state a bit more clearly how is their revenue model broken.
For me, it's still the most acceptable "major" Chromium-based browser.
I'll stick with uBlock, thanks.
Source?
tldr; Brave as a 'single ad network' does not end up 'receiving 100% of information' because the overwhelming majority of that data stays on your machine, where it belongs.
Perhaps you heard some false claim we "replace ads" on pages -- this is usually asserted without skepticism. We've never done this, we talked about doing it again only with both user and publisher opt-in, via private matching and anonymous confirmation so no remote tracking at all.
Anyway, if you don't like ads on the Web, use Brave. If you want to try Brave Ads to get tokens to give back to your top sites and channels, rather than free-ride, cool. If you'd rather not try Brave Ads but want to give back, you can do that too (you have to sign up with Uphold, though; regulators do not make this easy but it's doable).
How do you justify such a broad-spanning assertion?
All true, and this is why I use Brave. Brave punishes privacy invading ads.
If you opt in to BAT, Brave values attention and gives users control over how the attention value is spent.
https://github.com/brave/adblock-rust
Here is an excerpt of the read.me:
It uses a tokenisation approach for quickly reducing the potentially matching rule search space against a URL.
The algorithm is inspired by, and closely follows the algorithm of uBlock Origin and Cliqz.
I had no idea that the whole thing is yet another altcoin IPO with excellent marketing. They really must be laughing all the way to the bank...
Excellent marketing and a useful product with widespread appeal. It's weird that you focus on the coin as if it was the primary goal. It's merely a means to an end, and one of the best real-world uses of cryptocurrency that I've seen.
I'm not 100% if I had to specifically install it from the add ons menu, but I believe I had to.
Also this is Firefox Preview we're talking about - even if it wasn't able to be uninstalled it's software that's in testing!
Since using Brave, I have JavaScript off by default and can easily enable it for specific sites.
Makes most websites so much faster.
A browser is a remote code execution engine for attacker-controlled content. Looking at their bounties on H1 https://hackerone.com/brave/hacktivity they are still solving problems which Mozilla and Google have researched and extinguished long ago. I don't trust Brave to get the security right. Also Ethereum is a scam and doesn't scale but that's a whole other topic.
As for their claims around paying content generators with their fake monopoly money, this article was absolutely on point.
Ethereum is not a scam. It has evolved a great deal over the past 6 years, and thanks to zero-knowledge proofs, ETH does scale now (up to 2300 transactions a second, without any need for further upgrades...see Loopring for an in-production implementation of this tech https://loopring.org/#/), so you should update your knowledge on the subject.
It's not fake money. It's getting paid to view ads. This is not even a new idea. I used to use an internet service back in the 90s that was free as long as they could spam me with ads (NetZero). Facebook and Google make hundreds of billions of dollars off of ads, do you really think there's no room in that to give back to consumers of ads some portion of the revenue? The only reason they don't is because their duopoly over internet advertising is pretty stable right now.
It's getting paid with fake money to view ads.
Inventing a currency out of thin air so they can mint as many dollars as they want and you and other geniuses can form a secondary market where all of you can trade it is the genius of brave and the point of this article.
Instead of paying you, they make their own currency and pay you. You can make some money off of it in the secondary market because some other idiot thinks it's worth actual money.
You know what else inarguably has monetary value? A perfect one to one copy of an american 100 dollar bill. This absolutely has monetary value and therefore you should buy it, just like how you should buy crypto.
I'm not sure how you integrate a distributed heroin based system into a browser.
What I am comparing is the illegitimacy of heroin to the illegitimacy of the crypto issued by Brave. I am sorry that you were incapable of deducing this. But now with this simple explanation of the nature of an analogy you get it!
If you do, I’ve got some bad news about people making their own currency.
If a company issues stock and says this piece of paper represents a percentage of the company, this is also not producing currency out of thin air.
If I print out american dollars that don't represent anything and start trading those dollars in the capital market then I will go to jail for counterfeiting. This is 100% producing currency out of thin air.
But wait, change that american dollar to crypto, then everything is legal. This is because crypto represents high technology and buzz wordy concepts. Everybody knows that buzzwords makes everything legal and right.
This is a "tech" site, no stupid people exist on a "tech" site because of the word "tech," so everything you say must be 100% correct and infallible. Makes sense.
That's a weird and provably false belief. I have found many goods and services that have vastly improved my life via ads.
I have a beautiful very large framed print of a schematic of the ship from The Life Aquatic in my office I admire several times a day I bought from a Facebook ad.
It is something I likely never would have searched for myself but something that has vastly improved my general mood. Any time I'm frustrated, I glance up at the details of the ship. It helps me find center.
My life is improved, through advertising.
baseless
> In the initial Brave Ads release, users receive BAT for viewing the ad notifications. In future releases, users will be able to earn additional rewards for engagement events within the ad tabs. Brave does not reward users for clicking on the notifications. Brave’s position is that users should only click on ads that they have a genuine interest in engaging with.
If this wasn't the case I'd not have a problem with it. This way it just seems like a huge scam (which considering you can just use Firefox with some add-ons it probably is Mr. Brendan Eich)
That is so much noise that it renders fingerprinting as a strategy utterly useless.
You will maybe have a randomized fingerprint but it doesn't matter if 99% of other fingerprinting vectors are Stoll left open.
Just look at their github. They have fingerprinting bugs that are beyond uniquely identifying (fonts best example) which are open since years. It isn't solvable through Chromium which all of Brave knows yet they market this.
If a vector can be randomized or otherwise arms-raced vs. the remote adversary via C++, then "Chromium" is not an obstacle for Brave. Consider the case of extensions, where your point would have been valid if you'd written "Chromium extensions".
Fingerprinting can be done many ways, but most are not economic: they cost too much for the too few bits they get from the target browser. The common methods, notably fingerprint2.js, use APIs that we at Brave, along with Apple and others in the W3C Privacy CG, are taking on.
ICYMI, https://brave.com/whats-brave-done-for-my-privacy-lately-epi....
I mean benefit of doubt is one thing but you claim it can be done while it's hard to read it out with JS (which it isn't it's a ten line script to identify all of those vectors). But the cpp code that requires thousands of lines of edits is easy?
That Chinese girl (sorry don't know your name) explicitly said it's too hard years ago but 4 years later you sat it's possible yet the bug is still left open?
I really don’t think that that’s a selling point. I really think most would think this is not a browser’s job.
Also, not our job to help Eich displace Google. As users, this is not our concern at all.
1. user privacy – the data for ads is processed in your browser and then only meta is sent to the ad network. Rather than the current system, where Google's/Facebook's ad network fingerprints your browser and then tries to track everything you do on the web.
2. convenience – you can have the browser automatically donate money to the people/websites you visit most without any payment processor middleman.
2.) We’ve got Mozilla doing a great job.
Monetizing the internet is not a priority I care about and ads are not what I need my browser to optimize.
Also there will always be the problem of Bernden Eich who gave money to take away people’s most basic right in California. I can’t support that.
2) How is Mozilla facilitating that at all, much less doing a great job of it?
3) Brendan Eich co-founded Mozilla, so that's pretty funny given your point (2).
2) Mozilla’s stated goal and track record is user privacy. Brave’s is a Trojan horse for an alternative ad network.
3) we know who Eich is. Having co-founded Mozilla doesn’t make him a saint. The fact that his world view (expressed through real substantial action that has impact on people’s lives and happiness) is not compatible with what Mozilla stands for, is the reason why he’s not there anymore.
Brave does not have such a data-breaching ad "network" or "real-time bid" platform. Instead the Brave browser downloads a fixed-per-day-for-large-N-population ads/offers catalog of URLs with metadata for each URL, including the first level text-y search-like ad call to action, only if that browser's user opts in. This catalog compresses well and delta-updates, similar in scale to anti-malware/anti-phishing lists. For ad confirmations we use a blind signature protocol (Privacy Pass variant).
You can do whatever you want to do with Firefox. Enjoy the free blocking mechanisms, including fingerprinting, and install whichever 3rd party ad blocker.
Users understand the relationship there, so please don’t try to spin it. It’s not about user’s data.
You’re embedding an ad client into the browser. You want to sell ads yourself. Selling ads and controlling the browser is Google. That’s a conflict of interests.
* fixed typos
We give no browsing data out to any server including ours, and we pay users 70% of the gross. This user-first design flips the Google model that Mozilla facilitates by default for its ad revenue share. If our users don’t like it, we go out of business. If Firefox users remain unaware of their uncompensated value to Google, Mozilla thrives. Got it?
1) advertisers were willing to pay Brave the same amount as they do existing advertisers, and
2) Brave took a similar cut as existing advertisers (including user payouts), and
3) Publishers were actually taking BAT from Brave
Then there wouldn't be much of a financial difference in who was placing ads. #3 is obviously not the case currently, which seems to be the point you were making.
To be 100% clear: I don't support what Brave is doing, have never used their products, and think their entire business model and its associated crypto-nonsense is at best a waste of time.
Wait, is that what my attention is worth to the online ad industry? I would gladly pay <$25/month to not be tracked for ads. (Or, even better, enjoy that as a consumer right protected by law.)
I currently pay $0 for a decent ad blocker but my DNS is still unencrypted. I would not be surprised if my former ISP (Big Cable Co) found a way to track me that way, hopefully my current ISP (local utility) would not. Also suspect that data can leak through the ad blocker anyway via first-party requests.
I don't care that a tonne bat shit has real monetary value. I don't want it. It's not legal tender, I'm not willing to accept it. I don't care that their fake internet tokens have monetary value. I don't want them. Brave is stealing from people and paying them in shit.
Brilliant in two ways: (1) they are an ad company that has fairly successfully wrapped itself in a Klingon Cloaking Sheild made up of "open source" and "pro-privacy" atoms; and (2) they did an ICO at a perfect time (peak of hype with BC soaring) and ease of implementation (Etherium). It was so good (bad) that it brought a tear to my eye.
Getting back to the article, I felt that the grade school "Daddy-O" interludes were unnecessary and distracting but I otherwise really liked it. And the illustrations were boss!
In fact, I liked it so much that I wanted to buy the author a coffee. So I clicked the link and...I was taken to some startup payment service that made it a chore to pay $3, so I bailed. I thought that was ironic as that payment site reminded me of Brave. Intermediating a common transaction with useless clutter and therefore foiling it.
So the Brave exec team and founders made a nice chunk of change and have perpetrated a ruse. But, luckily for users, they balanced Karma by producing a mighty-fine browser. Its capabilities rank it among the best.
Standalone client-server apps have full, unsandboxed control of your computer. It’s impossible to see the content of encrypted network requests, short of hacking into the app. See: Wacom’s drivers track the name of every application that you open:
https://robertheaton.com/2020/02/05/wacom-drawing-tablets-tr...
Apps are deployed via the browser today for one simple reason - they’re everywhere, and you can write your app once an run it just about anywhere.
It’s the promise of Java, realized.
I'm not very happy that browsers and JavaScript have become the dominant app platform, but I think we'll need something with similar features to displace it.
Naaaah, Firefox with uBlock Origins and Privacy Badger makes sure I don't see ads, but thank you for trying.
This means umatrix will break most websites by default and require you to check what elements are required and allow them manual but offers higher security because you essentially audit every website you visit.
uBlock Origin can also be used in default-deny mode, see [1]
* * *
[1] https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Blocking-mode:-medium...
Basically, when a website loads, it can access resources from various sources. For example, if you access www.example.com, it may also load Analytics from google.com, it may use sharing icon and javascript from twitter and Facebook, it may load some video file from Akamai content delivery network etc. etc.
With uMatrix you can control what resources load from where.
In the default mode, uMatrix will load the resources only from the domain you are accessing, i.e. if you are accessing example.com, it will allow images, javascript, videos etc. to only load from example.com and block from all other sites. This can break some websites - for example, youtube.com which loads videos and javascript from other servers in different domain. In such cases uMatrix allows you to allow resources from the other domains / servers to load and save this settings (or you can just switch off uMatrix temporarily for that site).
Since many resources aren't loaded by default (and a lot of websites include such crap resources from other sites like Google, Facebook etc), it saves bandwidth and the web page often loads faster. But it comes with added complexity when a website breaks.
I'm still figuring it out but it's more granular than merely off or on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/706xrr/umatrix_vs_...
Note that I do 'online shopping/purchases' in another browser, though.
Also, at this point, I don't trust anything based on Chromium...even if it's all open-source etc. The last time I checked, it still phoned home to Google some telemetry data. Granted, I haven't looked into it for a while as I've turned my back on all things Google a while ago.
Is this an actual thing that's noticeable by people?
What is more noticeable to me is that projects like uBlock Origin are entirely community driven and thus less likely to succumb to monetization schemes like "acceptable ads".
Plus I trust Firefox itself more than I trust Brave, because Firefox has been with me ever since 2005 when I started my career.
I use Brave everywhere, from desktop to iOS. I do not use their BAT thing at all, so my praise is not incentivized.
I love the page that shows me time saved/ads blocked/redirects/etc. I'm sure the time saved stat is highly questionable, it's only as good as heuristics in it, but it's fun.
Anecdotally, last summer, we were vacationing on the Oregon coast, where the service was really poor. I experienced multiple cases where safari (on iOS) just was not going to load any time soon if ever, but brave did and handily. IIUC, Brave is using the same low level rendering engine that safari is, but the top part (UI and request handling) is different.
I think it's cool that Firefox users have lots of knobs and buttons they can turn and push, but for right now I value that the Brave experience is an ad-less experience that Just Works out of the box.
On mac I use adGuard, in iOS I use Refine content blocker.
With Chrome, yes, as long as it continues to support uBlock Origin and you don't count its built-in communication with Google.
My brave browser tells me: " rudism.com: Not yet verified This creator has not yet signed up to receive contributions from Brave users. Any tips you send will remain in your wallet until they verify. "
But hey Rudis is probably right. Everything should be free and no one should get paid for work. lets not even try to fix or attempt a different economic model. We're all so happy with the current one...
These amounts are pretty small.
If PayPal or credit card were used (without prefunding things) you'd have most of that money eaten up by transaction costs.
As others have mentioned, this does seem to be a "real" use for crypto currency to achieve microtransactions.
I think BAT was a good call. One of the few real use cases so far for a cryptocurrency.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1875750223
(Naturally I believe people who say white-on-black works for them, but I don't believe that preference is universal or should be a default if readability is an important criteria.)
Like anything else, you would have to have sufficient practice with light on dark to be able to be good at it. Light on dark is known to be better for people with contrast decreasing visual problems. Black on white is generally lower contrast as the large bright areas tend to bleed into the tiny text areas.
Was curious so I checked - high-end ereaders are 300 PPI, which tends to be the minimum PPI for good quality print.
You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for others to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
A Microsoft product with drop-downs inside of drop-downs? Say it ain't so.
Brave does feel good, but it would be better if the spyglass at the bottom was "find in page" and not Search, since we have an omnibar.
But there's a problem: you never moved the money at all. You need to bookend it with two transactions to move the real money in and out of the bitcoin system, which nearly always involves intersecting the controls of the real system. It's more like hawala banking. And can suffer 50% exchange rate swings in a very short time.
A lot of low rent internet chum would also disappear. So maybe that's a fair trade off, but it will also hurt your local newspaper pretty badly.
Nobody has really come up with a good sustainable alternative to ad-funded content for a lot of publishers. Brave is one of many attempts at this, too bad it smells a lot like a crypto currency scam.
Wow, we have _completely_ different understandings of the value of the Internet. To me, the (realized) promise of the Internet is not just an additional channel for established media, it's the decentralization of publishing in the first place. "Low rent internet chum" is a consequence of that, but IMO it's been far more than worth the tradeoff.
I already pay for my local newspaper (and most of their content is behind a paywall anyway).
When you combine the complexity of the system, the constant need to try to maintain backwards compatibility and the sheer number of people involved in the project, you have every reason to be skeptical.
This is a 2 year old codebase that has had a paid audit and tons of eyes on it. Just this week, someone discovered and announced an issue. While the fix is relatively trivial, the amazing thing is that it went unnoticed for so long.
I can only imagine ETH2, which is a brand new codebase, whole new consensus model, using cutting edge research (zkSNARKS) and shaped like a rube goldberg machine, will be full of issues nobody has even dared to imagine. I couldn't imagine trusting billions of dollars of value to that literally over night.
Aside from major technical challenges that are specific to Ethereum, a major problem with sharding a blockchain in general is that it somewhat obscures the reality that each shard is in fact a separate blockchain with separate network participants and so it might as well have a separate unit of value and not be constrained to a single token.
The ideal solution IMO (to really promote decentralization) is to have multiple independent blockchains and networks interlinked together via open source decentralized exchanges - This will mean that any token's value could be instantly determined relative to that of any other token in a trustless way by polling decentralized exchanges.