Hacker News Reader

Comment by cactus2093 | Hacker News Reader

cactus2093

And then when guests know this about the rating system, a lot of them will go even further to avoid giving a low rating because they don't want to harm the hosts' livelihoods unless something truly outrageously bad happened.

Just like a lot of people I know will tip 20% on a restaurant bill without even reflecting on the level of the service, because it's so ingrained into people that wait staff rely almost entirely on tips for their livelihoods so people feel guilty using this quality signal mechanism the way it was initially intended.

View on HN

The argument that you should always tip food service ~20% is generally based on the claim that "quality signal mechanism" is not actually the intent of the tipping system, but merely an excuse (that was perhaps true at some point in the past) to justify legally paying workers low wages and artificially reducing the sticker price of food.

Because the way it was intended is inhumane if you even barely reflect on it

It's inhumane to give someone a bonus for good performance?

It is not a bonus, they are legally exempt from minimum wage laws.

The entirety of their livelihood is dependent on our judgements of their service.

If they don't make enough in tips to reach minimum wage, the employer still needs to close that gap. It's not as exploitative as we're led to believe, or at least no more so than working a minimum wage job is normally.

Yes but this never happens. If you cost your employer money at the end of the month because you didn't make minimum wage then you'll be fired. Employers don't want to pay out, employees don't want to be fired so nobody ever speaks of it when it happens and employees just accept less than minimum wage.

You are mistaken. Firstly asking your employer to close the gap is a great way to get fired. Secondly minimum wage is so low that you cannot possibly live on it. It's in fact so low that not even walmart pays minimum perhaps because the kind of people who would work for it aren't liable to be worth employing.

Federal minimum wage is 7.25 after taxes this is about 250 per week wherein most people in this situation are paid every 2 weeks. That is to say that one cannot expect to have more than 2 paychecks per calendar month for a grand total of $1000. If you didn't need food, clothes, medicine, or anything else this is about enough for rent.

What this means is that the employee/employer relationship not to mention the individuals ability to live indoors and have food is actually predicated on the ability to achieve greater than minimum wage. Tipping out even if they can do so isn't enough to keep anyone afloat. Not tipping in a state that has a tipped minimum wage is not that much different from dining and dashing its just not illegal because its never been illegal to screw someone if they are substantially poorer than you.

cactus2093 referred to how it was originally intended, not how it currently works. I believe the original intent was for workers to always be paid a decent wage by default, and to get a bonus for exceptional service. Now it's inhumane not to tip because tipping is built into salary expectations, but that's unrelated to the original intent.

it depends: that isn't true in san francisco, FYI.

The jobs aren't blanket exempt. That's a federal rule. A ton of states don't exempt tipped jobs from minimum wage. In California, for example, where it is the case, the usual minimum wage is $12 or $13, depending on the number of employees, and a dollar less for tipped jobs.

But repeating the pattern, that's a state rule. Different parts of the state don't exempt jobs from minimum wage. (God, I'm glad I'm not a lawyer). In San Francisco, for example, the minimum wage is $15.59, and as far as I can tell, it holds whether you're tipped or not.

Minimum wage didn't even exist when tipping started.

Is it not expected that when you pay money for a service then the performance should be good? Good service should be the default. If the service is outstanding then that is when we should start giving a bonus.

US tipping etiquette has nothing to do with good service and all to do with propping up underpaid staff.

I think we agree, it's more of a matter of adjective grade. I expect service to be adequate. Some of it is frankly good. Once in a while it's outstanding.

As for US tipping etiquette, cactus2093's point was that current US tipping doesn't really reflect what was originally intended. But kingkawn made a claim that extended past the current US tipping practices.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com