Startups bet that lonely freelancers crave company | Hacker News Reader

Startups bet that lonely freelancers crave company

bloomberg.com

110 pointslaurex74 comments

I'm in a co-working space, and the primary reason I took it was loneliness.

But I think that, for me, a social app wouldn't be able to replace a physical work space. It's not just the interaction with co-workers, but also the separation of work and home. The routine of riding my bike to and from the office is like a mental barrier, helping me to switch between work and leisure.

By going to my office, I effectively switch to work mode. I'm less inclined to get distracted (HN, YT, Reddit, etc) while I'm at the office. Then, during the ride back home I have time to reflect on the day. By the time I'm back home my mind is clear and I can relax.

My findings are that (at least in the Netherlands) there is plenty of opportunity for new co-working spaces. Currently it's hard for small or solo businesses to find a suitable office. All offices I found are either geared towards larger groups (10+), or had ridiculous requirements to be eligible. All the 'innovation' spaces are hard to get in when you just make a software product. They require some 'impactful' business to be accepted, which basically means you can choose between creating yet another replacement for plastic straws, or blockchain.

I don't need foosball tables, I don't need eco-vegan food, I don't want to attend blockchain disruption events. I just want a desk to sit at, and do my work.

I have thought about starting a little website where people open up their living rooms every once in a while to create an ad-hoc coworking space. It could even be the kitchen or the dining table, as long as you're sharing ideas, learning, and getting to know what other people are working on. From a business perspective, I'd rather make use of the plentiful libraries in Amsterdam than pay for a coworking space.

I think that was the idea behind http://www.workatjelly.com

Yeah I saw them, but it seems like it's just a directory to Facebook pages that needs to be updated by sending an email. I think there's a good business case to make a nice website and app that would afford people a coworking space-like luxury, but at rather ad-hoc and personal locations.

Safety becomes a big issue for this kind of thing. It might make sense to start by leverage a platform like couchsurfing which has a personal review system.

Good point; I think it would initially involve some personal vetting as well as starting at a local level. This could be made part of the listing process where the only way to get verified as a member is to allow a designated photographer if you're hosting, and some kind of social proof (LinkedIn?) if you're looking for a space. I think this is a bigger concern in remote towns and the countryside, though. For a city like Amsterdam, safety might not be that big of an issue.

Have a look at https://www.codiwork.com

i work from home and get a "day pass" at a coworking spot from time to time (Common Desk in Dallas). After a while, wfh feels like being on house arrest.

I head over to the co-working location for the commotion and activity honestly. Everyone is still working and so it's not like a social event but I need to be around other humans while at work from time to time.

Plus, one time I met these kids (likely right out of college) working on a IOT weather station. They had a few customers and we're working on their hardware at Common Desk. I chatted with them and gave them some biz pointers and some contacts from my network. I got a real kick out of that.

This was my experience at Coworking spaces. If you are more of a freelancer and need access to conferences rooms for your clients then they absolutely make sense.

If you're just working from home for another job though, there's not as much of a social aspect since everybody is just...working. I get much of the same benefit by going to work in my local library (out of the house, working around other people who are quiet).

I have a similar setup (also at common desk! heyo....although with silicon valley bank and Walmart IT housing corporate offices at CD it's perhaps less science fair-y that it used to be). I use it on the weekend and once to maybe twice a week on WFH days. It's nice to have a place to sit and work.

I thought that these type of arguments are stupid, like why would I need to hang out with people in an office, I've got my buddies for that after work. Later I moved to another country where I knew no one beside my wife, and then I realized that mingling with office crowd is actually the easiest way to expand your social circle when you're in a new environment. Yes, you can do that on conferences or in a gym or clubs, but it all takes more effort for introverts like me.

Even if you don't talk to others, being around people is very comforting. It meets a basic need we have as humans.

I think this is a generalization about the type of person you are. For me, I much prefer to work in a space where I am completely alone. I like to have music blasting without headphones, drink a smelly tea, or eat a stinky meal at my desk.

I can't do any of those things in an office with others around me.

Nope, I don't like to be in an open floor plan office when I'm getting disturbed every 5 seconds. I would 100% like to work from home.

Not all humans have that need. I work remote and 100% enjoy being alone. I have everything I need and rarely have to leave my house.

The primary reason why I would want to be a freelancer is because I DON'T crave company.

It's not for me (lack of commute, more time to exercise, cook a lunch, able to receive parcels, ability to see my kids, etc).

But I don't know why you'd pay for this. There's so many free video call services and even as a freelancer I'm often working "with" other people I can, and do, call.

Have you tried freelancing alone, and of you have for how long?

After working at a company, initially it felt quite nice but after some months/years I started feeling different. I have been working intensively at a companies, and then as a freelancer/solopreneur, alternating both modes along the years. Currently working mostly alone I have to admit that I crave the workplace - kind of the place where you go work and meet other people and share some kind of mission.

Throw parties at home when you feel lonely. Invite guests from various industries/walks of life. That would fulfill your social needs, make you more pleasant to be around, get that out of your system and allow you to focus 100% on your mission without wondering what if...

I throw parties etc. Workplace has totally different social point. I can do all that and have a workplace.

Probability of finding colleagues matching your interests and personality in a random workplace is very low and even if you are lucky, such situations usually don't last long.

I dont think thats the point of workplace. I'm not looking for friends, that is a different thing.

How do you figure this? Maybe if you work in a field that you don't personally care about at all, but I have a specific interest in my field of employment, which is why I work in this industry to begin with. My coworkers also share that interest, and I find that gives us common ground which makes it easier to bond in other ways. I also noticed that you edited your snarky comment out of your original response, which basically said that it is sad and pathetic to expect to have some sort of personal connection with your coworkers. Maybe you should have thought that one out...

Right, if someone doesn't have many friends to talk to, why wouldn't they throw a party and invite all zero of them

Parties are nice opportunities to make some friends... If you can't find any, go to language school, art club etc. and invite people just like that.

I think this is very personal. I've been doing freelance, solo (from home) since 2014 and I couldn't be happier. Workplaces drain energy from me for some reason.

I do have a fair amount of good friends and other social activities, so I'm definitely not lonely.

Yeah, varies from person to person for sure. Nothing wrong with different preferences.

I'm in my first year of freelancing and feel the same way, working alone feels so much more productive to me. No silly meetings or endless PR yak shaving and debates. I have coworkers in a small coworking space but I can go the whole day without being interrupted and get real work done.

Maybe I'll change after a few more years.

Yeah, pretty much. I like working alone. But I like working with co-workers, too. I've done both, and I'd say that ideally, I'd do two weeks solo, two weeks in a workplace, or something like that. Too much of either is not good...

I think there's an important distinction between company and interaction.

I hate interaction in the workplace, especially when it's spontaneous. Being remote allows me to be in the zone probably more than half of my week, which has a tremendous impact on productivity.

On the other hand, after a few hours of working alone I do crave another human presence.

What I've found works well for me is to have a chill twitch stream in the background. An interesting phenomenon is that some of the streamers I like sometimes stream without talking, so all I get is some background playlist, but it does has the desired effect whereas just playing the same music wouldn't.

I worked remotely for almost 8 years. Even managed a team of 10 developers remotely. I loved it as it gave me 2-3 hours each day for exercise and meditation. The only issue was I could not establish a clear work start and end time.

Can't vouch for people that are single but I get plenty of human interaction around my family. Still I like to work out of the house one day per week and work with different people in an office. I guess what's also important is professionally mingling with people, what tools and frameworks people use and so on. A change of scenery.

Actually it was nicer when my wife was working mornings, that would gave me a solid quiet 5 hours to work in.

Yes and no.

Coworking spaces exist but there's nothing like not being interrupted to supposedly "watch someone's laptop"* when you're trying to get things done.

* You should take a picture of it and list it for sale on Craiglist as part of a joke.

As soon as they are out of sight you run over and start installing preyproject onto it and add a cable lock while that's going on. run back. email them an invoice.

I mean if people assume you are going to watch over their stuff like it's your own, it's the right thing to do right?

Wow - that escalated quickly - should of added the sarcasm flag to it. Certainly it's not okay to tamper with someone else's system without their permission.

I would suggest they just take it with them, I would not leave mine laying out for other's to watch.

Maybe I should of suggested having a battery powered 360 camera on hand, perhaps shaped like the blue yeti microphones and painted like an eye?

Surely there is or one could be made / adapted to have an app where they can watch their laptop from the loo.. or rewind and see if anyone got near it. Maybe just a battery for a wise cam that can last 20 minutes. That way storage and app is and detection is already done.

Put into a minion or sauron tower / all seeing eye and it would be easy to keep an eye on it while keeping your eyes to your own projects.

Why do you have such a big issue with doing someone a small favor? It really greases the wheels of society a bit if people help each other out in small ways.

I've never had any problems if someone else asks me to watch their belongings in coffee shop etc. Doesn't really disturb me at all.

it's disturbing when you are thinking about maybe leaving, or waiting for someone and then you need to leave right away but now you are committed to stay.

otherwise, i watch others stuff instinctively even without bring asked. like neighborhood watch. you just keep an eye out for each other.

I'm with you on the not really minding to watch a bit - I mean if their table is in front of me or within what 145 degrees or so viewing angle? I'm going to notice any movement of object larger than a rat in the area, and would not hesitate to say hey bud, that other person is gonna be right back or something..

On the other hand I want to help others be more secure, and taking a backpack or case to the bathroom is not a huge deal (in most places) - and is generally more secure.

This past week we had some run through the bar at ocharleys a mile from here grabbing purses hanging on bar stools and sitting on tables then run out the door and through a hole in a fence.

It would be shitty to be accused of being in cahoots with someone snatch and grabbing.. and people should be aware that sometimes that person you ask to watch your X will be tempted to steal your X. And more tempted by knowing you are going to the latrine than to the soda machine.

Sorry it seemed like I don't want to help someone - I was trying to add to the GP's thing about how he/she does not enjoy co working spaces because of broken concentration by others asking to watch their stuff.

Of course I would help keep an eye out, but I would also like to help that person with other security / safety measure too, so they would be more secure in the future -

I think some people need a little auto-flag / light that pops up saying "I'm in the zone, don't break my flow" - I can relate to working on a thing and several side issues pop up that remain in short-term attention memory while changing code.. and getting through the mental checklist - and then get interrupted by family.. and try to come back and spend an extra 20-30 minutes trying to remember..

I could of closed my door, and should have - so it's not their fault.. so I see both sides of it. Generally speaking I would prefer to be social and helpful and can get my groove / flow back anyhow - so certainly being available to be present with other humans is often a higher priority. I also understand some others may have deadlines or whatever.

Also - what happens if someone else distracts you and you don't keep an eye on the laptop and something happens to it. Or what happens if two guys in black suits with sunglasses pop in and swap the laptop and look at you and give you the shh and finger gun to the head. I mean, what a predicament to be in.

I know none of that will ever happen, but someone's competition, an ex lover - I mean any sorts of things - many laptops are just value of the hardware sure, but some are data on the device and that could be a lot of responsibility -

I'm just sayin' - if it's not a chromebook, lets get some more layers of security! and an odd "all seeing eye" could not only be semi-cool tech, but a conversation starter if that's part of the appeal of engaging in the 'hey I'm running to the toilet' starter :)

Now, how to make an auto-do-not-disturb- I'm-in-the-zone, not-on-facebook bluetooth light/sign that detects typing in visual-studio/sublime/notepad++/jetbrains vs scrolling some web page. Might need to be more than a red/green light busy/not-to-busy; maybe do-not-bother (writing code)/available-to-chat(reading-perhaps)/please-save-me (I've been on reddit/fbook more than 30 minutes).

> "watch someone's laptop"

I'm that guy. Whenever I need to work in a coffee shop, I ask this of a coworker. Do you really feel like it's too intrusive? I never thought it would be a problem.

I think it's part of the social contract when working in a coffee shop. You're in public, drinking coffee, and people need to use the restroom... It's OK to ask people for help.

Getting upset at something is similar to people getting upset when they're bumped on public transport. You're in a cramped space, that's moving, and that people are entering and leaving, what else would you expect?

Honestly, just go. No one's going to steal your stuff, and if they did, some stranger isn't going to stop them.

You don't back up your assertion that, even after asking, some stranger isn't going to stop them. But I distinctly remember a scientific experiment that said otherwise. I googled and found this popular reporting: https://abcnews.go.com/WhatWouldYouDo/story?id=7091942

Shameless plug -- my company is working on solving this problem also, but unfortunately we weren't mentioned in the article.

We talk with a lot of remote workers, freelancers, consultants, and self-employed workers, and the common theme behind all our conversations is that it's lonely working from home or on the road.

We hold Work Clubs in coffee shops to give people an opportunity to work together for a few hours while getting to know other people and get out of the house. We support local small businesses and are building an IRL community for remote workers. Mental health is a major problem with working remote and we've found this is a good way to help break the loneliness.

Feel free to reach out to me (my email is on my profile) with any questions or comments, or check us out at https://outofoffice.app/

This looks good, but I'm reluctant to sign up without seeing information about what regions you're active in/have participants in. It would be frustrating to go through the process only to find that there's nothing in my region.

Thanks for the feedback, and I don't blame you. Right now we've got communities in Portland, San Diego, and the SF Bay Area. We'ree planning to expand to a few new cities soon and are always open to people who want to host Work Clubs in their own cities.

I have not found co-working spaces (I've tried a few in different cities) to enhance my productivity or my community. I have only been able to build community around shared hobbies or interests outside of work. I HAVE wished that there was a way to figure out who at a workplace shares my interests. For instance when I start with a new client with a large workforce, if I could quickly connect with who at that workplace is into BJJ, climbing, drones or w/e, that would be useful.

This may be my individual personality - just my two cents.

And here I am craving work from home. It's like another planet.

You don't know what you have until you miss it, I suppose.

Yeah I think there's a balance somewhere and for me it's not 40 hours a week in an office. Maybe 20 hours in an office and 20 at home would be more reasonable. I would imagine different people will have a different preferred balance from 0 to 100%.

You don't need to work remote to feel miserably lonely.

I moved to Canada with my wife, I consider myself lucky because I have two couples of friends who also moved here. Apart from that, nothing.

People where I work don't even say bye when they leave. This is insanely different from the country I came from, to say people there make a point of striking up conversations and caring about you doesn't make justice, it is just part of life. The worst part is that I am basically surrounded by fellow countrymen (1/3 of the team) but they already conformed to the norm here.

This has affected our marriage since we don't have that healthy time away with friends that heals any bad mood between us.

Where are you from?

I work remote from home ~80% of the time and love the quiet solitude. But I live with my my wife, three kids and a dog, so those hours of alone time feel precious. If I lived by myself I think I'd go crazy.

If this is what startups are working on and if this is startup news, then it just might mean the tech world is awash in too much money with too few ideas. Or the news has to sell ads and has publish something. I wonder where Brady will end up? Oh that's sports "news".

Also, I'm willing to bet more 9-5 workers crave privacy and alone time than freelancers want company.

Besides, if you crave company, isn't there something called family ( parents, siblings, spouse, children, etc ) or friends or even pets that a better suited for that role? Or why not take up a hobby like hiking, biking, etc for company? Isn't there something inherently sad and pathetic about trying to find company at work? Maybe it's modern society. I just don't get it.

I don't understand the claim that work relationships are inherently non-personal or inauthentic. I have legitimately good friends at work who do favors for each other, look out for each other, hang out outside of work sometimes, etc. I keep in touch with friends from past jobs.

We spend a very large percentage of waking hours at work and see a lot of faces. I really enjoy being friendly with those people and having legitimate, authentic, relationships with them.

Yes, I have found that this approach <surprise!> makes the workplace much more enjoyable. It feels like many HN commenters hate their work, workplace, coworkers, etc. This mindset seems to be more problematic than the actual working situation itself. Interacting with people is hard but necessary.

> I don't understand the claim that work relationships are inherently non-personal or inauthentic.

Didn't say that. I said it's pathetic for people who crave company to seek it at work.

> I really enjoy being friendly with those people and having legitimate, authentic, relationships with them.

Yes, that's called being a professional. I hope you are friendly to strangers, customers, etc too, but aren't desperately trying to use them for company because you are lonely.

Is it you WeWork?

As a freelancer I never missed a company. Going freelance was a clear and deliberate decision to not be a part of one.

The next step might be to connect like-minded freelancers offline. Kind of Couchsurfing way.

Paywall bypass:

http://archive.is/cfbW6

As a freelancer I dont want a startups "company". Yes, a fridge full of kombucha is not really interesting. Nor is a bunch of people bragging about spending VC money for no reason or working on useless garbage pseudo-product. And Im not lonely. So, why dont we kick it old school, and you just pay me money. As you have done for the last 20 years and will continue to do until Im bored of you.

> So, why don't we kick it old school, and you just pay me money.

That's the whole point of all these extra "benefits": so that they can pay you less money.

If the FAANG companies set any precedent, this isn’t really true.

They would have to pay even more money without the benefits. Maybe.

Partially, but for those there's another catch.

They have the campuses with game rooms, food, daycare, etc. all in order for you to spend as much time there as possible. They are literally building company towns.

plus to switch market norms to social norms. they want you to feel like a family, not only because it benefits you, but because it benefits them. you would probably be willing to move furniture to your neighbor but would not do it if he offered you 10usd.

they know that we are more productive if we feel like a family and if our opinion maters. this is nothing i came up, it's something that the division inside google came up with when tasked to learn what increases productivity in teams and why are some teams more productive then others. there is a book on the subject that i cannot remember now.

I visited a major company once, a relatively large company you've all heard of. Went to the bathroom and oh, that's neat, they have toothbrushes and shaving kits and stuff for employees. A couple minutes later it clicked: oh they have those there for when you spend all-nighters. Oh no no no.

I'll stick to my small company 9-5 gig, thanks.

I can't speak to that company's motivations, but my current position has similar amenities (showers with soap, basic toiletries in the bathroom, food/drinks readily available) and I don't think anyone here's been pulling any all-nighters. They're mostly used by folks who bike in to work in the morning and need to clean up, or get something stuck in their teeth after lunch.

It could all be some malicious plot for when the 24-hour work days hit in a few months, or it could just be a nice and relatively cheap benefit that helps people out? I know there's plenty of times I realize I have to present at a meeting and I'd feel much better if I could make sure I was well-groomed before it.

It's not hard to make almost any action a company makes into evidence of brutal malice, but that doesn't mean it's always true.

This is also really overplayed.

I know many people who work at big tech companies and I've spent some time at a megacorp or two in my day. The on-campus amenities may keep you at work longer (willingly!) but seem pretty orthogonal to how much time people really spend working. Low-amenity Amazon has long hours, High-amenity Google has pretty normal/reasonable hours, high-amenity Facebook has high-ish hours, low-amenity Microsoft has normal/reasonable hours.

Yea, I just see it as an added benefit that may or may not have value to me. My current job has a happy-hour on Fridays with beer/snacks, but I'm usually not around late enough in the day to attend. That said, once a month or so, it's a free meal and a couple drinks, so it's an extra $10-20 a month I get to save.

Things like free food are gimmicky, but it's also a non-trivial financial and time benefit to not have to prep a fresh meal a few days a week. I'd take a small salary cut to work somewhere where I got a healthy breakfast/lunch every day for free. It's only $100 or so in actual food cost savings, but it's a lot of mental overhead that you get to pass on. Lot less stress on my life to make sure I prep enough for the week, and left to myself, I may not pick as healthy of food as they'd prep for me.

I understand that you don't like these products described in the article, but why should the developers of these products pay you money? What are you selling?

Unreadable.

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