Ask HN: Dropping out of college and moving to SF

I didn't think joining HN, I'd be spending so much time answering questions from young people, but hey, it is somewhat satisfying in lieu of more technical and human science discussion.

I'm 38 and I took a GED to leave high school for a programming job. I didn't realize until my 30's how much fun college probably would be. I'm not going to discuss the merit or benefit of a degree, because it is a highly personal evaluation. I simply wish I had the experience my friends had with some of the stories and adventures, friends and social life. I didn't take my first real vacation until I was 33 - almost 17 years of non-stop 80-100 hour weeks.

That being said, I'm also old enough to look at a post like this and feel both frustration and excitement for your position. Statistics about a college degree earning more over a lifetime, don't lie, you will simply have an easier time in life in almost every way if you complete your degree.

Here's the "tough love" part: You have provided nothing to indicate to a reader whether you would be an asset at 19, other than passable writing skills. Not that I wouldn't hire you based on this criteria, but why should I when the market is heavily saturated with experienced people?

Being 19 with no work experience, college education, deep technical talent and on top, you bore easily? Honestly, no, and you haven't made a good case in your post. One more semi-nasty point: product and business development people generally have relevant experience in developing products and sales, its a skilled field, not something to do because you can't program.

I'm glad you're excited to move to San Francisco, as a 9th generation native of the Bay Area, it is an awesome place to live (this damn rain, notwithstanding), but it is a very expensive, very challenging place to live without a network of loved ones, patient relatives, a sure source of income or a solid job offer.

Since you've indicated you have no money saved, I'm assuming you'll try and borrow funds to get here; make sure you let them know you'll probably need more and try to avoid burning any bridges with family or friends.

Because the Bay Area is very populated, the unemployment here is very high and I have friends who have been without an interview, even in technology for well over a year. My cost of living is very high compared to most of the country, public transportation is decent, but not expansive. There are far easier places to strike-out to with a wild-hair and not be eaten alive.

I am, however, envious of your youth and future. I wouldn't TRADE mine, but darn ain't it fun and exciting to be 19, have no prospects, no responsibilities and have the world in front of you.

Take older to younger advice; slow down. Make a plan, save your money, network remotely, visit with your savings and complete your degree. Build something that will impress people, even if its a website discussing your perspective on product and business development.

As a 37 year old, I'd go along with almost all of what eengstrom said, in general. But there is a counter-point... being to cautious and patient can be a risk in it's own right. In my own case, I look back and feel that I waited too long to indulge my "wild hair" and move to a place with more opportunity. Now I'm struggling to deal with a world where a 37 year old is considered "old" to be a startup founder, and worrying about the real possibility of age discrimination as I continue forward in the technology profession.

I'm not recommending going off half-cocked on a whim or anything, but there's something to be said for being aggressive about pursuing things. And unfortunately nobody can really tell you how to judge when a decision is being too aggressive or just silly... judgment is one of those things you really only gain with experience. All I can really tell you is to study hard, consider all the alternatives, solicit as much information as you can from various sources, and then make the best decision you can. In the end, whether you succeed or not isn't going to come down to any one decision in isolation anyway (well, 99% of the time anyway. A decision to start imbibing crack cocaine is pretty much a one way ticket to failure, but I hope you get my drift.)

save your money

Definitely this. Building a safety-net / nest-egg will both allow you the confidence to make some risky decisions at times, and may just save your ass one day if one of those decisions fails to pay off.

Hah! Me? Too cautious? I would never have listened to my own advice, but then I had a job in hand and money saved, which seems an entirely different scenario than the OP.

How, also are you too old? Go to your pitch meetings like I plan to: I will be surrounded by octogenarians in overalls and Victorian wimples! Social camouflage!

Hah! Me? Too cautious? I would never have listened to my own advice, but then I had a job in hand and money saved, which seems an entirely different scenario than the OP.

:-)

How, also are you too old? Go to your pitch meetings like I plan to: I will be surrounded by octogenarians in overalls and Victorian wimples! Social camouflage!

Oh don't get me wrong... I don't think (or at least acknowledge) being too old, but I am cognizant that there is a certain sort of bias towards youngsters in this field. I'm still thrashing away like mad on my project, and I'll be pitching it as aggressively as I possibly can (or harder) when the time comes. If anything, in my case, age is just making me hungrier exactly because I have that "I haven't done anything yet" feeling.

But there is a counter-point... being to cautious and patient can be a risk in it's own right. In my own case, I look back and feel that I waited too long to indulge my "wild hair" and move to a place with more opportunity.

I would emphasis this as well - I don't think you will get to your death bed some day, and think - "golly, I sure am glad I didn't take any risks. I sure am glad I never did anything stupid."

Sometimes, the real risk is caving to fear.

Another note - never underestimate the value of persistence, and effort. One of my favorite quotes is from Coolidge:

Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

I would disagree with this safe-net concept. In general, a young guy has almost nothing to lose and everything to gain. Secondly, if he gives himself a reason to fail.. he is allowing himself to fail.

With that said, I'd say, figure out a half decent plan. Execute it. Fail.. Learn. Execute better. Repeat. It doesn't matter how much you fail but don't take on too much debt.. just work more.

First thought: Perhaps try to transfer to another school? There are great schools out there where you can find motivated, smart students and perhaps even find some great co-founders.

Second thought: Stay where you are one more year/semester and use all of the time normally spent partying to create a great open-source project that will act as a resume. There has to be some way for companies to understand the level of complexity you can handle, whether your code is clean and loosely coupled or if it is rookie code, etc.

Third thought: Stay in school and find a co-founder and an idea and apply to three-or-four of the top incubator programs before quitting school to see if you can dovetail into something where you can be surrounded by great people.

I am, of course, assuming that one year off will turn into two years off, which will turn into just plain giving-up on school. When I think about my four years in college, I realize that I learned how to be a great entrepreneur, how to manage massive complexity, how to be a great leader, etc. outside of my comp sci classes (which were absurdly easy for me since I had momentum going in -- I started with senior-level classes my first year in). That's something that many people doling out "college is a waste of time" advice fail to realize. Working in a startup isn't about slinging code, it's about collaboration, interaction, being put on the spot, learning to respect others in spite of their faults, not being afraid to take a stand in something you believe in, etc. Those are things one can master in college if one prioritizes those outcomes.

I once asked my advisor (a big name in computer vision at the time -- I was an AI guy) why the university didn't teach programming on a particular computer in a particular programming language and his response was "you're not here to learn, you're here to learn how to learn," and in my case, that was a lesson I needed.

Think about the guys in any prison movie: Take time to plan your escape.

1) Instead of digging a hole with stolen spoons in the prison yard, learn to program. "Rails for Zombies" (the tutorial) or Michael Hartl's book can substitute for stolen spoons. Build a personal pet project or find a way to contribute to an open source project. It'll be more fun than digging a hole in the prison yard. And you'll develop a marketable skill that'll get you a job so you don't end up back in prison.

2) While you are developing programming skills, get yourself transferred to a different prison where you can make an easier escape. You can get into any community college in the Bay Area (Laney College in Oakland, for example). Or try SF State or CSU-Hayward. Going to college in the Bay Area will give you a base and you can make your escape to a startup from there.

3) Just like the guys who volunteer in the prison library to get in position for their great escape, once you're in the Bay Area and enrolled in a local college, volunteer for all the startup events and conferences (seems like you've already done that with the TechCrunch events). It'll be a lot easier to ask people about jobs or hookup with a cofounder if you can say you're already living here and have got some useful skills.

You're smart to recognize that you need to escape your current environment to move ahead in your life. Just make the change in a smart way. Or you'll be stuck in solitary confinement for a long time.

I'd consider going to a better school, if you can -- it's not that hard to transfer after 1-2 years to a place like Stanford. It might also be a function of freshman classes vs. upper division classes; you might consider trying to take upper division or even grad classes in areas you really care about, just to be around less worthless people. The only classes I enjoyed were grad classes in crypto, which I took by just blowing off many prerequisites with handwaving, and learned on the fly.

Of course, I dropped out of a top school to work on startups, and while I sort of regret not getting a degree, I also regret not dropping out earlier to work on startups earlier.

I'd be a lot more encouraging of "drop out for a year to work on startups" if you were a developer, vs. bizdev/product person. Spending a year more at college becoming a competent developer is probably the best way to use your spare time, then reconsider dropping out for a while to join a startup.

it's not that hard to transfer after 1-2 years to a place like Stanford

citation please? from anecdotal evidence, selective private schools take very few transfer students. however, good public schools like UC's take a lot of transfer students from the California community college system

I learned taking time off does not have to equal dropping out. You can return and finish your degree, if you choose.

I gained a lot of perspective when I took off and moved to SF to run my start-up. When I returned to school couple years later, I enjoyed it a lot more. I credit it to better class selection(now that I knew what I was really interested in) and an improved attitude towards school(I learned that I didn't know it all as I often thought before I took off).

Just wanted to say some of the best folks in my college CS group were military folks who were a bit older (2-4 years) who knew the value of the education.

That said, it is a huge stigma to not finish your degree... you better have a job or strong vision. For every Steve Jobs there are probably hundreds who would have done better by completing their studies.

Don't do it. Transfer to a different school or try to make your experience at your existing one better. It's a big risk moving to a new city without money and trying to make it work. Don't ruin your safe and stable situation.

I don't think it is a big risk. I don't think you have to ruin your safety. And stability in your late teens and early 20s is overrated imo.

Knowing what the average HN user is capable of, I don't think moving to SF is a huge risk in terms of survival.

That makes no sense. Being an HN member does not grant you magical survival abilities. Also, despite being an awesome place to be, SF is expensive to live in.

Being an HN member does not grant you magical survival abilities.

There is nothing magical about a large percentage of HN's members possessing a valuable skill(ie. programming, hustling).

Also, despite being an awesome place to be, SF is expensive to live in.

Agree. But there are enough hacks around it. Dining out too expensive? Cook at home. Apartment too expensive? Commute to SF on BART or get an apartment in the Tenderloin. etc.

I completely agree with transferring to a different school. There are plenty of places outside of San Francisco with great startup scenes and great schools. Cities like Austin, Boulder or Boston all have growing startup cultures and incubators where you can stay in school and find great people to pursue an idea with.

Drop out of school.

School is for some people, not everyone. It doesn't sound like it's for you. A degree is a good way to get a crappy job (and these days, it's no guarantee of that). It's not the best way to learn, especially for tech stuff.

Ask yourself what you're hoping to get out of school. You know what you'll get by moving to San Francisco and HUSTLING. If school isn't going to give you what you want, then ignore what everyone else says and quit. A degree isn't the safety net it used to be... being self sufficient and skilled IS.

What in this post makes you think that the OP is self sufficient and skilled?

"Product and business development related work is where I think I can contribute the most. Is it realistic to think that anyone would hire a 19 year old, unproven college drop out?"

Realistic, yes. But is it realistic to think you'll get paid a salary worth mentioning? Not so much.

It sounds like you want to get in on something early, and most things early just don't have much money in them. My advice: find a start up you love and go for it. If you're really gung ho about a specific startup and are willing to share the founders' vision, I have a hard time believing they would reject you're help. Expecting a decent salary though, is probably too much.

I was in the same situation as you 2 months ago. I couldn't find a startup I loved so I started my own. Now, I'm developing a product out of my old bedroom in my parents house (free housing ftw). When the product's done, I'll move out west.

The one thing I would stress is to always have a backup plan. Things will not go according to plan as much as you'd like, so be ready. I'm living with my parents now, but if they kick me out I know exactly where else I can get free/cheap housing while I develop. If I run out of money and realize my startup won't make it, I can most likely go back to school. If I can't get back in school, I know I would have an absolute blast being a bartender on a cruise ship. After I save up some money I'll start over.

Don't drop out. College is awesome, I don't regret a single day in college. I did a ton of internships to keep myself busy, partied a ton, started a company (Mugasha) and made a ton of friends. College is not all about academics, you will meet amazing people, having a lot of fun and look at the tech/startup world from a different angle.

As others have mentioned, transfer to a university in the bay area. Best of both worlds, Berkeley, Stanford, SJSC, Santa Clara, SF State etc.. tons of choices.

Jumping from college dropout to one of the most expensive and competitive job markets in the country seems a little bit too much. It's a big country with hundreds of big and lively cities full of opportunity that don't cost a fortune to live in or near.

Even the little commuter town I live in (Winder, GA) has a couple of web-heavy businesses started in the last decade. One's a design firm, and the other makes clothes.

Maybe you just need to stop drinking.

Yeah, I haven't had alcohol since last semester

Well, then. Why not? Even if you don't find a job, SF is a great place to be unemployed.

Plus, if you decide you want to go back to school, you establish CA state residency, go to a CC for $20 a credit, then transfer into to a UC.

In the same situation except I went the community college route and just recently transferred to a CSU, as it's all my parents can afford. My situation's a bit different because I'm only a Caltrain ride away from SF, but I understand how you feel.

If you stay in college, figure out a way to bend every assignment into something that you can show off as part of your resume/portfolio.

The "social experience" of college is way overrated IMO. All the cool, smart, motivated people I've ever met in my life either already graduated or dropped out. You certainly don't need to be in college to make friends in your peer group, so don't stay based on that.

On the other hand, general ed classes have a way of exposing you to ways of thinking you might not otherwise encounter if pursue only what you think you're passionate about, and in my opinion, the maturing of my thought processes has made college worthwhile.

YMMV. Either way it'll be an adventure. Enjoy it!

I am in a similar situation (20 years old, semi-dropping out to start a company.) Here's my advice/what I'm doing:

1) Don't drop out entirely. Being a part time student allows you to still access most of the university resources. Many of these can be very valuable.

2) Don't move to SF. It seems tempting, but if you have no plan, no skills, and no money, it's a recipe for disaster. SF is also extremely expensive; unless you're going to NYU, it's probably a lot cheaper to live in your college town.

3) Work on your own projects to get some experience/a portfolio. No one will hire a random kid with no skills.

My advice is to work on a project yourself until it gets the attention of the online community. Then you can drop out 100% and move to SF, as you'll have proven that you can provide value.

I won't say if you should or shouldn't do it, I think there are risks to doing it but if you can find a position it could pay off and give you some experience. If you decide to transfer a bonus would be somewhere with a tech scene, i'm not sure where you are from so am not sure if there is a startup scene where you are but if you decide to start a company while in college knowing there are other startups/tech resources within a travelling distance will give you some of the benefits you'd find in SF. On a smaller scale depending where you go. I think you should just think it over and make a decision.

Three points:

1.) Don't use the advice here to make a decision. It's all based on personal situations that probably differ from yours. Read it with a grain of salt.

2.) Always have a backup plan or two. So if you leave school, make sure you have ways of getting money/job/back to school/etc.

3.) My advice (see #1) I'm 19, left college after a year of CS, founded a startup etc. But I worked for a startup before that, so I had a vague understanding of what I was getting into. I also have a few safety nets & backup options.

Do you know anyone out here? Do you have any money saved? If the answer to either of those is no, what would you once you got here? What is your resume like? Any experience? Open source? Anything? If the answer to the previous question is "very little" or "none" it is going to take a while to get a job. you may even need to just start doing some projects of your own/open source to get some experience. You might have to take some manual labor job to survive at first. Something you're willing to do?

I have a distant friend who I might be able to stay with for a period of time. No money saved. All extra went toward tuition to minimize loans. All my experience has been from working on small projects here and there. For someone to hire me, I acknowledge that they would have to be taking a risk.

You don't mention it in your question, but what is your experience? You say you want to work at an awesome startup, but do you have projects (such as websites) or anything you can reference to prove you know what you're doing?

San Francisco is a great place, but you're already going to be fighting against quite a lot of people with more experience. Unless you some impressive projects to show, finding a startup who is going to take a risk on a 19 year is not a good bet to make.

cj, as a fellow 19 year old University student I kind of know how you feel, especially with respect to your friends lacking ambition. If I could graduate now and get into real work I think I would really enjoy it. Some of the classes I have to take, or the work I have to do seems really boring and irrelevant. For example we were required to take a course on Probability which was taught by a terrible prof and through the whole semester all I could think about was working on something real and exciting.

However, I'm studying Computer Science (my program, Business Informatics, is actually half CS and half business) and I'm very glad I chose this program because in one of my first classes I met another student who is just as passionate and driven as I am. We've become great friends and recently started working on some software we hope to work on over the summer and launch.

So I was going to ask if you've considered switching from Neuroscience to CS? Or perhaps consider dropping in on some CS classes? You probably stand a better chance of finding like-minded students there. Who knows, there could be someone just like you eager to work on software and get into startups.

Just my two cents...

This idea has fail written all over it. Unless you can land a gig with a startup before you move finish your degree or at least stick it out another year until you have a great idea to pursue or find a startup that really wants to bring you onboard. Also, you didn't really mention what your skillset is? Are you a rockstar developer or designer with a proven body of freelance work? This may be a different story then.

Easier to get laid in college than in SF. And if you do get a startup job, they might cut you first to pay for some new espresso machine or something like that. Employment security is probably non-existent.

I am from another country, so this might be wrong, but SF feels like a playgroud for middleclass valley-dad-pays-for-shit children. Plus lots of homeless people and asian girls in cowboy hats.

You can always go back to college in this area as well. Sonoma State is nice for a CSU, and UC Berkeley is obviously excellent.

You should absolutely, 100% drop out of college.

Moving to SF? Yeah, dunno about that; if it's what you want, good on you, go for it, but from one engineer to another it's overrated and you'll tire of it sooner than you think.

I would keep your grades up for now, and try taking a year off school to try it. I did this and haven't gone back yet.

if you DO go, consider looking into co-ops for your living arrangement. Fairly cheap and you get a pseudo family as part of the deal.

Do it.