Dutch went from shortest to tallest in Europe through sexual selection
royalsocietypublishing.org
royalsocietypublishing.org
But why were they aggressively selecting for tall stature? Perhaps because they were on average shorter than rest of Europeans, so they felt there is something wrong with them? Which isn't unbelievable, I've seen shortest girls demand the tallest men.
So when nutrition improved those already tall genes which were there, got time to express themselves to the fullest.
Here is some acecdote:
In my village, people mostly select average height partner. And tall people aren't considered more desirable. No one compared height or thought of it as some advantage but when men from other tribes started appearing near the village, suddenly they started thinking of how to increase their height, some are now drinking gallons of milk in effort to improve their height because they are lagging, while women want the tall men now. My grandma tells me, they never thought about "height" as a trait they select in their partner, they never thought about it. To her, any man who was average and could work on farm (not crippled), was not very ugly was a good partner.
Three sons - 6', 6'3" and 6'4"
If the height differences were adjusted for income etc, it would be convincing. I didn't read the OP. Did they do that?
They did compare them to other populations at the time. Unless the Dutch were especially under-nourished, then the effect seems reasonably well-founded.
Imagine if you've a goal to increase height of people from 165 to 190cm with minimum number of generations. How will you go about it.
Easiest and fastest way is to have two tall parents breed. You'll see it happen within 2 generation.
Now, if you improve nutrition of people who are 165cm today. How many generations of better nutrition does it require to make them reach 190cm? Certainly more than 2 generations.
Point is that, if you think "sexual selection" is not fast enough to take people from 165 to 190 within few generations (as is the case with Dutch) then better nutrition certainly is not either.
Cattle/pet breeder do it all time.
We can get a precise idea about this since it shows up in the genetic record and over the long term it's under half. A lot more men than you think are cuckolds.
How do you know most males get chance to breed in our society?
Just because a lot of men end up married and have kids to show doesn't mean they are their biological kids.
These days I see single moms are marrying guys who simply take care of the kids they already had.
Meanwhile Denmark sperm export is doing good.
These days many people are getting suprize on 23andme when they come to know about their lost connections.
And but how do you achieve that just using nutrition?
Effect of nutrition on height is overstated. Unless someone is malnutritioned, their height won't benefit much with better nutrition
We can even see this in cattles, if you start with a short cattle, no matter how much you feed it for generations, they'll still he shorter than one you can get from tall breed.
(Yes, I am aware…)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_countr...
Basically, when you are the tallest people in the world, any immigration will tend to shorten the average length.
> Basically, when you are the tallest people in the world, any immigration will tend to shorten the average length.
I know it's popular in Holland to blame the immigration on everything, including destroying the average height, but since a significant part of the population comes from Balkans, those immigrants are actually "improving" the average.
Aren't Turks the biggest immigrant group?
> "Finally, it is important to emphasize again that our effect sizes are very small"
It doesn't provide a motivation for why this phenomenon only happened in the Netherlands, and not it's neighbors Belgium, Germany or Scandinavia.
Those would be much more similar in Social equality, and to some extent even dairy consumption.
Edit: I've corrected Holland, to read Netherlands. Apologies for the misnaming.
Dutch were really short because of malnutrition.
Perhaps people were trying to make sure their children become taller despite being so short. So they tend to marry the tallest people. This works because of improving nutrition.
Perhaps this preference for height became ingrained culturally in the society. This cultural preference becomes ingrained since it can be reproduced by relative isolation (cultural and/or physical).
According to the article, tall men were favored whereas average sized women were favored. I wonder why tall women weren't favored versus average sized women? I think these preferences are in general populations but were exaggerated here?
It's hard to be malnutritioned. Can you link why only Dutch were malnutritioned and not other Europeans?
You don't really lose much height through lacking diet. My grandmother was born in poverty and there was famine and drought at her time which killed 3 of her family members, yet she was 6'2 tall.
The dataset focuses on the north-east of the Netherlands (specifically the three provinces of Drenthe, Fryslân, and Groningen). So no, not Holland.
The Netherlands. "Holland" is the name of one Province in the Netherlands.
Edit: I stand corrected. Actually two provinces.
Example: Q: What you call your country? A: Deutschland Q: Ok, then we'll call it Germany
???
I like 'Navajo: Béésh Bich’ahii Bikéyah ("Metal Cap-wearer Land"), in reference to Stahlhelm-wearing German soldiers.'
This apparently confused the English so much that they called the inhabitants of the Netherlands "Dutch".
It's especially common when the two sides have difficulty communicating: "What do you call yourself?" "Ger man." (Spear man [1]) "... henceforth the lands east of the Rhine shall be known as Germania."
[1] This is only one possible etymology.
My guess for Germany, which certainly seems the weirdest, is that it's a result of that process happening and the name getting fixed at different times for different languages, combined with the region having a rather complicated political history.
They were already tall no? Were they ever shortest in Europe?
I'm sure this is no secret among professional evolution scientists, but this side of evolution has AFAICS not filtered into the general consciousness, for some reason that I have yet to figure out.
Maybe because it would give women a more important role than we so far have been willing to accept? Maybe because it would give animals an intuition and intelligence that we traditionally have denied them?
I'm not so sure this isn't broadly accepted. As far as I understand it everyone knows why the peacock has ridiculous (or beautiful, depending on your sensibilities) feathers, or why male birds are beautiful, while female birds are plain.
I wonder how can tall gene flow in a way that they are only expressed in a specific gender but not other?
So basically, it will look like as it looks anywhere else. Pretty sure there are 6'3 Dutchmen who feel short in Netherlands.
That said, shorter people can cultivate presence and earn respect through competence, people-skills and the like. There are many leaders in history and today who are shorter than average who can command a room. But they've mostly had to earn respect the hard way. They start off with negative points and have to work hard to even get to zero. Tall people start off with positive points is all.
Examples from ALL species of vertebrates and invertebrates can be shown where "Bigger = Better".
In nearly every case it fits one of two criteria: Sexual selection and Territory Defense.
Nearly every species will attempt to make itself appear larger to attract a mate, or scare off a threat.
OTOH... sexual selection isn't all about combat; it's really quite comforting to be the smol spoon.
Yes, it could be why Scandinavian are taller but East Europeans are not, maybe Scandinavian never faced enemies like Mongols? So in Scandinavia always solo fight (sword/axe) gave advantage to tall men while in East, archers were already able to kill taller men with ease so there was no advantage of being tall.
I wouldn't want to be taller than my current 200cm though.
And why they didn't have more kids before the time when they were shortest?
What could drive tall people having more kids in last 150 year when they went from shortest to tallest?
Did anything big happen in last 150 year?
For example, Mongol archers could definitely kill enemies no matter how tall they were. So there was no advantage of being tall once better weapons were available.
Selection for tallness could have happened because of peace time.
This is an important observation and should be explored more deeply. When there is more equality for gender/class, and more economic security, people, viz. women, are freed to choose mates on other factors, such as attraction
> programs included both positive measures, such as encouraging individuals deemed particularly "fit" to reproduce, and negative measures, such as marriage prohibitions and forced sterilization of people deemed unfit for reproduction. [0]
Eugenics refers to an organized and systematic (top-down) approach to manipulating the genetics if a population. Obviously this is not good.
Competition and dating are good, I don't think anyone is arguing with that.
Confusing the two is like confusing capitalism and communism. Both systems affect the economy but in very different ways for very different reasons.
While in dating market, people select partner which ends up changing the population