Tesla X parts that had to be replaced after 400k miles | Hacker News Reader

Tesla X parts that had to be replaced after 400k miles

jalopnik.com

119 pointsranit125 comments

Of the $29k in repairs, over a quarter of it is just periodic new tires yet they don't break that out in the article.

I was saddened to see that key fobs are about $150 (and he needed 6 of them). That's the kind of pricing jackassery that I would not expect from Tesla. The number of fobs is about right, I've worn my Ford's fob button out in about 120k miles, but 3rd party chip keys are $5 and 3rd party fobs are $5. It seems like a 15x markup for a required, consumable item is bit "Detroit".

Toyota Corolla keyfobs are like $400 CAD, last I checked.

$5 seems unrealistically low. The Tesla keys supposably have higher security, I remember they changed the software to address some vulnerability. My fobs each serviced 4 years w.o. breaking over 4 years

bank cards with identical security (secure element) cost well under $5, in bulk maybe even under a dollar.

It's as if price and cost are different! Subaru wanted to charge me too much to replace a fob, last time I asked.

The price of bank cards to users is blended into the product, however, some charge a low single dollar digits for frequent replacements.

It's not at all unexpected a key card for a Tesla would be low.

Seems to be $25, which is much cheaper than most remote keys.

https://shop.tesla.com/product/model-3-key-card

That's for two cards as well, so only ~$12/ea. Pretty reasonable.

Not identical security method though. This is over bluetooth and has way more electronics in it than a chip-and-pin card.

By comparison, the NFC-based 'Keycards' that the Tesla Model 3 has can be replaced for $6 each.

bank cards can be tapped on NFC terminals: ISO/IEC 14443

What is the security model delta here?

Now how about the universal fob at autozone

How do universal fobs work? Do they pair with your car in some way?

I've just paid £500 ($650 USD) to replace a lost Land Rover key and only they can program them against the car. We needed two but I decided to stick to just the one(!)

I think that reflects the fob price, afaik tesla doesn't make them themselves. Meanwhile the model 3 rfid cards are $5.

Not an apples:apple comparison with the 3rd party ford fobs - where they've had decades to copy them.

The Model X (and S) eats tires at a prodigious rate. It’s unnatural.

Is there a way to change the torque curve and maybe steering geometry when you want to save tires, and then switch back to ludicrous mode when it's time to burn rubber?

Yes. You turn acceleration setting onto chill mode.

I have had anecdotal evidence that chill mode reduces Tesla-specific car sickness too.

The armchair scientist explanation is that the aggressive modes respond to every tiny adjustment of the accelerator pedal with “instant” changes in torque. All these small changes lead to motion sickness even in people who don’t normally suffer it,

Chill Mode on the other hand seems to reduce the micro adjustments by eg: smoothing out the accelerator setting by averaging over a few seconds.

This is not true. The performance models with performance tires eat tires just like every other high-performance car with high-performance tires. Ordinary Teslas with stock tires don't.

I’m also really surprised they don’t break out tire costs. Compared to a normal SUV, the frequency of replacements here is insane and Model X recommended tires are not cheap. This is a large cost factor many people don’t consider with Teslas- they are extremely heavy, but sit on performance tires. It’s a recipe for spending money.

Overall, though, these costs are very reasonable on a per-mile basis for a luxury car.

The main reason S and X chew through tyres is the driver activating “electric smile mode” which is where depressing the accelerator pedal causes driver and passengers to smile.

Rapid acceleration and deceleration will wear tyres faster. There will be a large negative correlation between “area on power graph shown in orange” and “longevity of tyres.”

What is this ‘electric smile mode’ I can’t find it through searching.

They're coyly referring to "ludicrous speed" -- the mode where you can accelerate from 0-100km/h in less than 3 seconds.

Also it’s a rental. So lots of random drivers that want to push the car more than it normally would.

400k for a rental car is insane. Most petrol rental cars would be scrap in a third of that amount.

Not even ludicrous mode. Even a relatively tame Kia Niro or Hyundai Kona will give the same enjoyment of instant torque with no engine noise.

For reference, Maddie Goes Electric https://youtu.be/9A4ytljB-jo

Driving an electric car is literally being propelled by magic.

(for certain definitions of magic, my favourite being Arthur C Clarke, “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”)

latest Tesla models don't need a key at all

phone + bluetooth is the primary key

and keycards cost $10

Aren't keyless fobs more expensive in general? My Honda dealership also sell keyless fobs at that price. Is there any manufacturer that sell keyless fob relatively cheap?

Most of this seems to be cosmetic (various switches breaking, noisy seat mechanisms) that the typical buyer would not bother fixing on a car with 100's of thousands of miles.

Also interesting how much they got covered under warranty. I'd assume Tesla is doing these repairs for free as they are getting valuable data on the real world durability of their cars. I don't think the average owner would get a free battery or CV joints when they reach a couple of hundred thousand miles in 10+ years.

The fact that the battery had to be replaced 3 times in 3 years seems very odd.

An average owner would likely never have it replaced.

I only noticed one. Can you note the mileages when it was replaced two other times? I agree with you that most owners wouldn't have been able to get that warranteed at the 300k mile mark.

Unfortunately, the battery warranty is one of Tesla's weakest points.

The other battery replacement occurred at 158k miles. I'm guessing the third replacement that comment is referring to was actually the line item for refunding the 355k mile battery replacement, which (as I understand) isn't a third replacement.

So, two battery replacements in 400k miles.

The ones at 158k and 355k were the 12v battery. Those are annoying, but probably not exceptionally high for 400k miles.

It looks like 317,037 was the only high voltage battery replacement. That wouldn't be too bad, IMO.

This is just a guess from reading the article, but the A/C that was running non stop for years runs off of the 12V battery instead of being belt driven. There are many issues that occur when people take affordable passenger cars, (e.g. Camry) and drive them as taxis, that stem from not being used as designed.

The 12V battery is the tiny one that doesn't cost much, similar to the one that every ICE car has. Teslas do need a marine grade 12V battery, which costs a bit extra.

The article states that the A/C compressor runs off of the high voltage battery, not the 12V.

I'm curious what is running off of the 12v to cause such wear, but considering the miles traveled having to replace it 3 times isn't actual that crazy.

Note that they’re talking about the 12v battery, not the battery pack. The 12v battery is like an accessory battery.

Yes. It’s the same size battery that every ICE car has.

Not odd. Tesla’s are notorious for being hard on the 12V battery due to all of the non-traction loads in the vehicle. We replaced ours with deep cycle 12V lithium packs to prevent early mortality.

Tesla replaced mine with a deep cycle marine battery. Which aren't that much more expensive than a conventional ICE 12V battery. This is apparently now standard equipment.

This is great to hear.

The article mentioned which repairs are done for free - warranty or good will.

The free batteries really must've skewed the data, assuming a regular consumer couldn't work out the same deal. Batteries are supposed to be a significant fraction of the cost of an electric car; analogous to replacing the engine in a combustion car.

Battery prices are still falling by about 10% a year. I don't think the cost of battery replacement would be that big a cost if it needs to be replaced after 10 years. You would get some money for your old battery as well.

The big question with any battery replacement is what the core credit is for the expended battery. If the battery costs $20k, but you get an $18k credit for surrendering the used battery, then it's not so bad. In theory, used car batteries would still be in fine shape to be used in fixed systems (like a whole-house battery, etc.) thus generating a nice core credit, but there just isn't enough data to know what that will look like in 10 years.

> would still be in fine shape to be used in fixed systems

I don't understand what you mean; if the charge they hold is a fraction of the original charge, or worse, who's going to be using them as-is?

I'm sure there's value in recycling the various exotic materials they're made of, but I don't see how that would be anywhere near 90% of the original value

If space is not at a premium, then it's perfectly reasonable to buy twice as many half-efficient used batteries if you get them for cheap.

> I don't think the average owner would get a free battery

Tesla's old Model X battery warranty was 8 years, unlimited miles, 70% of original capacity. The new battery warranty is 8 years or 150,000 miles, 70% retention:

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

So had they bought the Model X under the new warranty they would have had to pay for the new battery since the car was beyond 150,000 miles.

I'd really like to see a write-up like this on one of the model S's from northern europe. The biggest longevity concern for me is rust and corrosion of the frame due to winter road salt.

Allow me to ask a stupid question: isn't there a simple cleaning routine to do to ensure long term corrosion free ?

If you are referring to a car wash, well the problem there is that car washes recycle their water. They filter out the dirt, but not the salt. So the salt water gets pressure fed into crack and crevices making things worse.

I was more thinking about a dedicated procedure, optimized for salt removal.

In aviation, the recommendation is to wash the outside frequently with clean water.

However, cars are in contact with salt water, so there's an extra concern there.

No. Not if you’re using a car normally. Water and salt will both cause corrosion and the longer salty water is in contact with the underbody of the car the faster corrosion will work. Even if you washed the underside of your car every evening after returning from work there would still be the corrosion from the eight or so hours since you left for work in the morning and that would accumulate.

What about treatments like Dinitrol? These were quite popular decades ago in the Nordic countries.

They aren't popular at all in North America, even in the cold and salty parts like Canada. I've never encountered a car that had it, new or used. I don't know why. My perception of them is that they don't work well enough to justify the cost, but I don't know if that's true or not.

Not really, the best thing you can do is not expose the car to salt in the first place.

I once worked on an enthusiast's classic car back in the midwest which was exceptionally clean. The owner said every time he drove it in the winter or rain, which was rarely, he would put it in the air on the lift in his garage, and spray the car from below with WD-40 he purchased by the drum.

That seemed to have helped, but it's no panacea, and there's definitely rubber stuff which will be unhappy about getting WD-40 soaked regularly.

How does this differ from an ICE car?

I'd assume the question is more about whether Tesla's are designed to hold up in those conditions, not so much about EV vs ICE.

I think the meme is "Designed in California, for California."

There are plenty of parts of California that are cold in the winter, and use a lot of road salt.

Perhaps you're confusing California with Florida?

lol, it's just a meme, we can skip the lesson on California climate :)

Ah. So what you're asking is if Teslas are designed to hold up to the conditions in Tahoe, where all of the engineers at Tesla vacation during the winter?

Memes are great. In this case, great at misinformation.

You can't compare the effects of the occasional weekend in Tahoe to that of a decade of winters in Toronto.

I'm not. I'm saying that California has cold parts, like the north of the state, and that many Californians visit the cold parts.

Nobody said otherwise. Why so defensive?

I'm not being defensive. Also, if you want to have a productive discussion, please don't say things like this.

We passed productive conversation 5 comments ago. The context of this subthread is the longevity of Tesla vehicles in a prolonged winter environment, such as northern europe or Toronto. You, yourself, agreed you can't compare the occasional weekend in Tahoe to those environments.

I agree that we passed productive conversation a while ago. And no, I don't agree about the context; that's the whole point. If you want to have a productive discussion, you'd stop acting like this.

> There are plenty of parts of California that are cold in the winter, and use a lot of road salt.

Let’s be real. Those parts of California are hardly a blip on the state census (ie actual, full-time residents).

I'm claiming that many people in California visit those places, and it's during ski season.

Are you claiming that only full-time residents of those areas can understand winter weather? I'm not sure you meant that, but I'd recommend against thinking that.

I’m saying you can take any car for a day trip in snowy climate a few days a year and it will be fine (tires matter more than car in that case). Driving through salted roads every day to work for 3-6 months of the year is a different story.

Here in the Midwest, used cars coming from fair-weather states command a premium over the local options for those reasons.

Like many people who currently live in the warm parts of California, I moved here from the Northeast. You might want to broaden your definition of people who might possibly get the point you're making.

By the way, people who visit Tahoe in the winter, even for a few days, are critically aware of the tire issue, thanks to the frequent "winter tire or chains" requirements.

Literally, people who only occasionally visit Tahoe during the winter own "Tahoe cars" that don't have to use chains, thanks to a combination of all-wheel-drive and winter tires.

This is a thing! For example, the Apple Watch doesn't have built-in workouts for Skiing or Cross-Country skiing, presumably because it's not something that, beyond a handful, Apple employees typically do.

I don't work at Apple but Tahoe trips do seem to be fairly popular in the bay area -- maybe the watches can't handle that much cold and snow?

Apple employees probably go skiing more often than most Americans, since it’s pretty easy to drive to Tahoe from Cupertino.

Most of the Model S and X chassis is aluminum, and will experience longer longevity than traditional steel frame vehicles.

It might not rust but it can corrode.

Ford had hood issues:

http://www.fordproblems.com/hood-rust/

Aluminum boats:

https://goneoutdoors.com/effects-saltwater-aluminum-boats-85...

anybody with experience regarding protective coatings ?

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=steel+coating+salt+corrosio...

The first link about hoods is talking about aluminum/iron interfaces, not salt.

During my DIY days I had a 10+ year old BMW in a winter climate with an aluminum heat shield on the exhaust. When I swapped out the muffler, the heat shield was barely even recognizable as aluminum and basically crumbled to dust in places.

Was that because of road salt, or steel parts nearby? Steel parts nearby are usually the actual issue.

> Most of the Model S and X chassis is aluminum, and will experience longer longevity than traditional steel frame vehicles.

maybe with regards to weather/corrosion resistance, but no where in the automotive world does aluminum offer greater 'longevity' than steel mechanically.

aluminum is brittle, and gets more brittle. it's trickier to weld, and most fasteners that interface with it are supposed to do so with a compatible metal insert rather than a threaded surface, creating even more issues and higher part counts.

elastic modulus is hugely beneficial to the longevity of metal parts on a constantly torqued structure.

aluminum vintage race cars are generally subject to more comprehensive frame and suspension inspection pre-sale and pre-race for this reason, it doesn't fail gracefully like a similar steel part.

All that said, I get why Tesla likes aluminum. It's great. I love it, too. But I think that selling it with the idea of longevity isn't entirely honest in any regards besides corrosion/road salt resistance; and aluminum isn't even that great at that.

The benefit is that aluminum is lighter than steel. Any longevity beyond that of steel is gravy. Sure, aluminum is harder to work with and is more complicated for manufacturing; that’s why the Model 3 uses an aluminum steel alloy instead.

Nothing lasts forever.

Aluminum gets pretty gnarly where in contact with steel, especially when you add salt water. I'd be surprised if Tesla's fasteners and sub-assemblies were all aluminum.

Source: In a former life I worked as a mechanic in the rust belt.

This isn't strictly true. Aluminum and steel certainly do corrode very differently, especially due to the protective properties of aluminum oxide layers, but it's definitely much more complicated in terms of overall longevity. One of the main factors for this sort of the things is the mechanical fatigue that cars experience. Whereas steel and other ferrous alloys have something called a 'fatigue limit' [1], where for a given stress, they'll maintain integrity indefinitely (at least for practical purposes). Aluminum, on the other hand, will continue to experience an increased likelihood of failure under small and smaller cyclic loading.

Estimating mechanical longevity from a small number of first principles concepts like materials is extremely difficult, and usually is only be conclusively determined through statistically relevant groups undergoing destructive testing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

This Volt made it over 475K miles -- not sure of the current status. I think it had couple repairs or so.

some more backstory : https://insideevs.com/news/334835/this-chevy-volt-has-400000...

One thing to note is that this is a rental/commercial vehicle, which people absolutely do not treat as kindly as their own vehicles. They don't mention how many miles were shuttle vs normal rental, and I'm surprised the article makes only a brief passing mention of that fact at the beginning.

I wish there was a "continually improved" model of car where they gradually tweak every part that fails over time, instead of just throwing it all out with an "all new redesigned" model every 10 years (with all fresh weaknesses).

Continual small improvements is exactly what Tesla does. That's why so many of the small issues listed in the article have since been fixed (as the article points out).

There kind of is. The Chevrolet Express/GMC Savannah vans have remained largely the same since the late 1990s. The design of the headlights and grill have changed a few times, and there are several different versions of the engines, but stuff like brake systems, heater controls and fans, seats, instrument panel, etc. are more or less the same.

I don't think GM makes passenger versions anymore, but the cargo vans are still super common in my area (southern Ontario).

Have they actually improved its weaknesses, though, besides upgrading the engine from time to time?

For example, today I replaced a front wheel hub-bearing on a FWD car. These are designed with a cast steering knuckle that the axle goes through. The bearing assembly is mounted on the front of the bore, the axle goes through the bore into the hub-bearing from the back, and there's a little seal on the back of the bore that the axle rides on.

Diagram: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Steering...

The weakness is that water inevitably gets into the bore around the back seal (since the axle moves around a bit) and the only way out is through the bearing out the front. It rusts out. Nobody has improved this design for the past 50 years, as far as I am aware. Perhaps a weep hole? Perhaps they need to be completely filled with grease?

Like a Lada?

https://i.redd.it/469hjiwz3ga21.jpg

Haha, I mean if they'd actually improved every part that prematurely broke on the Lada for the past 40 years it would probably be the perfect car by now XD

But Henry Ford lost this argument 90 years ago when GM proved that styling newness trumps all other factors when it comes to sales.

Isn't that pretty much Toyotas modus operandi:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way

An interesting parallel here to continuously refactoring a codebase versus doing a big rewrite.

I want to say this is fairly reasonable for a 400k vehicle, but two AC compressors before 120k miles is crappy. An electric-driven compressor has a muuuuuch easier life than one driven by serpentine belt that with a clutch. It should be essentially a forever part. That's some shitty design on Tesla's part.

Going that long on factory brakes shouldn't be too surprising either; hybrids have been doing that for decades.

It ought to be a forever part under normal use. This car got to 400k by being used all day, every day.

> electric-driven compressor has a muuuuuch easier life

I disagree. Tesla cars run the compressor more often.

- There's a setting most people leave enabled that will cool the car anytime it reaches 104 (when parked).

- you can also leave the ac going while you're away from the car, like in a restaurant.

- you can cool the car from your phone

- this was a service vehicle, so they probably left it going so customers would get a cool car.

- This specific tesla was going across the desert between vegas/palm springs/los angeles

That equates to $60 per month maintenance if the car had been driven 10K miles per year ($29K / 400K miles = $.0725 per mile) which seems extremely good.

> That equates to $60 per month maintenance

You mean $600/month? $29,000/48 = $604.16. And that doesn't include Tesla's free (outside of warranty) battery replacement.

Your number assumes the car is driven 100,000 miles a year, which would get it to 400,000 miles in 48 months (4 years).

The original comment assumed 10,000 miles a year, which is on the light end.

The car is only 4 years old, it couldn't have been driven longer than it has existed.

I think OP adjusted to more regular annual mileage (10k miles/year), and adjusted the costs with it.

Additionally, with lighter milage, many of the repairs would likely have not been necessary.

7 cents a mile is in line with a Toyota Camry or Prius. Which are not high performance luxo cars. I think for other cars of the Tesla X's class (cough BMW cough) the maintenance costs are closer to 20 cents a mile.

So very good indeed.

My detailed spreadsheets show a Honda Civic 6 cents a mile to maintain the first six years. And I used dealers due to my two left thumbs. Many owners cut this in half by doing routine stuff themselves.

I think I have spent $1000-1500 on maintenance over the last 5 years or so with ~60k miles, and that's with taking my car to a private shop for a recall fix ($300-400, wife had the car out of town), which accounts for a quarter to half of that amount. I drive a Prius with oil changes every 5000 miles, which amounts to ~$30/change ($5-10/air filter, ~$5/oil filter, ~$20 for synthetic oil), or ~$400. The rest is small, periodic maintenance (starter battery, lights, fluids, etc) and tires (replaced twice).

So I'm looking at ~$0.02-0.03/mile maintenance costs doing most of the work myself, about half or more of which shouldn't be necessary with an EV. I probably could have been under $0.02 if I was more proactive in checking the recall notice.

This is out of the context of the article, but how does someone spend the cash on a Tesla X and then put Nexen tires on it as soon as possible?

I can't think of a company that makes cheaper rubber.

Might just be my own opinion, but talk about out-of-whack priorities.

I wouldn't want to drive even the world's safest car if it had tires on it that I wouldn't put on a mid 90s beater car.

My two Honda Civics had similar profile: pretty reasonable to maintain the first 200K miles. Then not so cost effective afterwards.

I mean... 400k miles is a LOT. I've never personally been in a vehicle with that many miles, the most I've seen in a vehicle I've driven/ridden in is about 190k miles and the car really needed to be shot and put out of its misery. The fact the car was still running at 400k miles is amazing.

I've heard that the LeMans 24-Hour race is very gruelling on vehicles: how practical would having a Tesla (or any other EV) try doing it? (Or has it been tried?)

With battery swaps?

Probably could run the whole race but the need to recharge often would hinder it substantially. Notable Toyota entered a hybrid car in 2019.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid

There is Formula E, but they swap cars at pitstops.

For LeMans, I think you'd have to do something similar to bumper cars with an electrified grid above it.

Formula E no longer does car swaps with the Gen2 car. The races are 45 minutes plus one lap. You can watch the recent Mexico race on the Formula E YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDjw0AWiVX8

Here's a 24 hour run Porsche did with the Taycan. They covered 3,425km in 24 hours:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jSG_10_JRg

EVs are uncompetitive with ICE cars in 24 hour races at the moment due to the time lost in recharging. Much faster charging or fast battery swaps would be needed to match ICE vehicles.

> They covered 3,425km in 24 hours

That's amusing. I tried doing a rough calc when researching the answer below and came up with about 2000 miles or 3200 km for an electric. Close!

If batteries got 50% better they'd be competitive.

A Tesla would be left for dead by a Leaf:

https://insideevs.com/news/359903/video-nissan-leaf-beats-te...

"The particular race showcased in the video is between an older Tesla Model S and a new, modified Nissan LEAF PLUS"

Doesn't really seem like a fair comparison, regardless of what the subtitle says.

Of course it isn't, the whole argument is pointless. It's just a bit of fun.

A comparison to a similarly priced car/mileage/environment would be more interesting.

A front axle replacement is $2k? That's insane!

Ehh, the line item says front axle and part of the Halfshaft.

I'll admit I don't know all the parts in these cars... but if I see front axle and front halfshaft there's probably a differential and other stuff involved too. Such things can vary pretty wildly in price. As an example, the front diff for my car it is just a couple hundred bucks for the part, on some VW models it's almost a grand. The Tesla part is probably on the lower side of that band, if it was involved. A more detailed breakout would be helpful to find out.

If the repair included a differential the line item would have said that right?

Replacing an axle doesn't mean the differential is involved at all.

As someone who's replaced at least a dozen axles.

Depends on the design. I was quoted something like that to replace the front axle half-shaft on my Toyota pickup. I ended up doing the work myself, but I can understand the high labor cost: it's a very time-consuming repair.

Time consuming, nah, can do it in less than an hour. We do it at rallies all the time. Maybe your pickup is different...

1987 Toyota 4x4? The book shows it as (I think, it's been a long time) 6 hours of labor. It took me closer to 12 doing it nights after work.

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