Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him
petapixel.com
petapixel.com
If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper would get an extra fee.
For high value items (i.e. like OP's camera) it would certainly be in everyone's best interest and platforms like ebay, Facebook, Amazon could insist that all parties use this type of service or relinquish their ability to dispute.
Too over simplified??
Sort of, except the agent wouldn't be handling (receive and/or disburse) money. They just certify and record a part of the transaction (i.e. shipment).
Those stores already have notaries, help with shipping, provide mailboxes, and the like. It'd fit pretty well into their wheelhouse.
1) in the high end, is a UPS store or equivalent going to have a staff member on hand with enough expertise to vouch for a product? 2) condition is sometimes a bit subjective. One persons "Mint" is another persons "Very Good". When you have quality disputes, what are going to do? cancel the transaction? that is an expensive and painful process for all involved.
I think if you shoot for the least common denominator and can do the following there is some value to be added: a) is it not a brick (unless he is selling an actual brick :) ) b) is it the brand and model that the listing advertises c) if it is easy to do can you verify it is in working order when the item is packed and sent away.
I still see some wiggle room for problems, but I do think that being able to prove you shipped the item is important. Furthermore, if the seller sold an expensive item, didnt he insure it? If the item "didnt arrive" then we have a different problem. The seller keeps his money, and the buyer works with the insurer(who has a vested interest in not paying so will likely investigate a bit) to get made whole again.
I stopped using ebay for the reason that most of the sellers just werent trustworthy enough. Amazon keeps trying to blur the line between marketplace and the company, which IMO is a bad move. I think they should run it in a similar manner than reverb, charge higher fees to pay for it(within reason) and actually do something to scammers on both sides of the transaction...
Probably it's because the platforms don't want to make services to root out fraud because then they become more responsible for owning it. Outside services can't break in because the platforms aren't going to put trust in them. Those services would have to own the cost of fraud.
Probably. These shipping services don't really have any expertise to accurately judge the quality of many of the items they ship. They just move boxes around.
Some rando at FexEx Office doesn't really know how to determine that your DSLR has the advertised shutter count, nor do they know how to verify the SMART status of those hard drives you shipped, nor would they be able to validate the authenticity of your designer handbag.
There are specialized consignors popping up online that do have the ability to do these things, though.
Yes, this is true. I think a basic service offering might just record the weight and photo of each item being packaged up.
The question is, can a platform protect sellers in this way and still afford to compete with other services? Most buyers like buying from Amazon/eBay where they always get their money back. It’ll be a tough sell to get them to use a platform with higher barriers to making a return and higher overhead costs.
I think that you need to address the concerns that buyers have in order to be successful in attracting buyers.
the seller is selling a used item and the buyer is searching for a deal. if lets say ebay offers this protection for sellers and other don't.and lets say all sellers jump to ebay. all other platforms would lack good deals on used cameras so the buyer if he wants a deal would have to go to ebay and follow the process.
For many items opening the packing reduces value
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22388197
The UPS or something can take a photo of the product or item they received. They are not verifying what's inside. They are just verifying the weight, a photo from few angles, available only in case of dispute. Seller can also do that, but a third party doing it with no horse in the race can act like a notary. We are verifying what we saw. A camera "box" with X pounds of weight.
If seller wants them to verify the inside contents, he needs to Show them the inside contents. Then UPS will be confirming by photos that yes, an item with this serial number is there inside and we packed it. No guarantee of shutter count or working or not. Just what they see & record in a photo.
Its kind of slippery slope. What if its just a empty camera body? What is its a junk camera? What if buyer says these above falsely?
* I know I don't have the authority to say this, I just want to be helpful.
Please don't copy/paste comments on HN. It lowers the signal/noise ratio and makes for pain when we go to merge duplicate threads. If you want to refer to something you posted elsewhere, please use a link. Better still, when you see a split discussion, email hn@ycombinator.com so we can merge them. We'll make sure your comment ends up in the winning thread.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21668637
Please don't copy/paste comments here. It lowers signal/noise ratio and isn't good for conversation. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
This was interesting. Would it only be an issue if the copied comment was a root comment of the article? Otherwise the copied comment would be under a different branch without possibility of collision with the copy under a different branch. If that the case?
The boxing video could be made available on the courier's site for any interested party to see (when enabled by the shipper). Sure, it may not capture the quality of an item, but that's a fairly small detail that can be resolved with a return/partial refund and it would at least put an end to the rampant fraud that goes on.
For anyone else that is curious, it was in 1958 and here[0] is a link to a PDF
[0] https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/hope-diamon...
You could sell your camera to a company like KEH, and they take on nearly all of the seller side risk when dealing with consumers.
The real problem here is that Amazon is not following their own policies, and refunded the buyer when the buyer did not provide proof of delivery for the returned item, not anything else about the system in general. The recourse for that is small claims(or arbitration, but small claims is probably better for you, and it is allowed as an exception to the required arbitration)
However these platforms can solve anonymity - may be UPS can verify ID and address in addition to basic checks with item photo and weight. That is, make it equivalent to an in person exchange.
The advantage of this over Amazon is that as a seller, you know B&H isn't going to screw you over in any way, and if they do, you know where to serve your lawsuit. A trusted business with a physical location is the counterparty in your transaction, which makes it pretty low risk. As a buyer, you know B&H is trustworthy and you can come back to the store and have a problem resolved.
Amazon offers nothing in a typical Amazon.com transaction beyond matching buyer and seller. They can't trust the buyer, and they can't trust the seller. So they can't really help with the transaction in any way, they are just there to take a cut for basically nothing. B&H takes a larger cut, but they actually do something.
Of course, people like money, so Amazon is rolling in it while most people don't even know that they can sell their camera to B&H. (I've bought used stuff from them because I don't trust random eBay listings, but never sold anything because the amount of money they offer wasn't worth it to me.)
I've gotten a few duds from Amazon in the past, but smaller, focused online stores like Sweetwater will inspect your gear for you before shipping it out to you, will give you a direct line to a sales+support person. In fact they'll even give you the email of the entire executive team of the company if you want to contact them directly.
As much as I like free Prime shipping, for higher end gear I'd much rather have access to a real person with expertise in the gear I'm purchasing, and a brand name and reputation to protect. I was not a believer at first, staunchly sticking to Amazon, but everything I've gotten from them has been top notch and without any defects, so I became a convert.
But people don't like risk, either. To choose one of very many examples: consumers will often pay more for "safe" brands they're sure will be good than take a risk on something new that's significantly cheaper.
Obviously, Amazon is doing better than B&H, but there's other explanations for that, and it's not like B&H is doing poorly.
Ok, so this is a serious problem, wont you agree? But is it an unavoidable one? Would it be possible to get something in-between, where it's both a good deal and adds a lot of trust? I suspect the physical presence part is a big driver of cost. Both because of rent, but also wages. And because the camera is not displayed to the whole country, worse matching of buyer and seller.
In my case, I wanted to sell the previous model of a camera after the new one came out. To upgrade, of course. They offered about $100 on a $400 camera, and sold used ones for about $300. That's a big cut, so I decided not to upgrade and am perfectly happy.
My time to make a listing somewhere, collect offers, vet a one-off purchaser, and pay for shipping was probably more than $200, so it was actually a good deal. It's not a good deal if you operate at scale and can get the efficiency up, however. So if you wanted to start a business, you could probably eat their lunch. (Or fragment the market and put everyone out of business!)
I mostly buy old film cameras used from them. People selling them on eBay bought a custom-made 4x5 camera for $6000, don't want it anymore, but can't bear to see "their baby" go for less than $5999. People selling to B&H are less emotionally attached so the prices are better.
I was trying to reason around why they take that big of a cut.
Over 1000 transactions, you’d do better selling on Amazon. On one transaction, your statistical outcome is still the same, but you run the risk of hitting that one bad outcome.
Fraud by delivery company staff. Someone might choose to risk their job for a verified $2k+ package. Moreso if they ended up with a truck full...
(Maybe this, in turn, would create some other bad incentive or opportunity for fraud.)
Another random idea: law enforcement agencies could conduct sting operations where they buy and sell valuable items online (with extremely thorough documentation of the shipments sent or received), and then criminally prosecute counterparties who commit outright frauds. E.g. maybe 0.05% of the people buying or selling expensive cameras would be police and prosecutors who would try hard to send you to prison if you tried one of these scams against them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_on_delivery
COD is so old, it's the name of an AC!DC song. (Well, there it stands for "care of the devil", never mind).
You describe what you are shipping, how much you want for it and who covers the shipping costs.
The buyer will go to the courier office and inspect the item, if they agree to buy it, they sign off on it, pay the price + shipping (if they are the one who's supposed to pay for shipping) and the seller can get their cash from an office near them the next day.
Important bit is, the buyer inspects the item and signs on it, if they buy it, if they refuse, they cannot keep the item.
Even after providing proof that the IMEI was not reported as stolen, and them waiting weeks for the buyer to provide any proof (they didn't), they still sided with the buyer. I called for weeks, and finally after about two months, somehow the person on the phone was able to just issue a refund. I've not sold anything on Ebay since.
On top of that, when I had an issue with buying something through paypal, they used that ^ instance as a negative against me while on the phone. "Well I see you sold a stolen iPhone in the past..." was not something I was expecting to hear.
I woke up one morning to get an email notification thanking me for purchasing a back bumper, a wing, and a few other parts for a 2012 Hyundai Genesis, which I obviously don't have and neither have I made that purchase. The fraudster even put their real delivery address and name less than 20 miles away from where I lived (which I reverse searched and confirmed that the name was associated with that address). I immediately notified eBay about this, they refunded me the purchase, and asked me to change my password. I did all that, removed the perp's address from the account, but eBay didn't have a legitimate 2FA solution, so I was kinda out of luck here.
Lo and behold, the day after, I wake up to info on my account (name+address) changed again. They couldn't change the email, as I have 2FA on my email account, but they did everything they could aside from that with my eBay account. This repeated at least one more time afterwards. By the end of this saga, I just gave up and closed my eBay account after getting my refund.
I just did some googling, and it seems like eBay STILL doesn't support any form of 2FA aside from SMS-based one (which is exactly how, I suspect, they got into my account in the first place, as I didn't get my email compromised). What a shame, but oh well.
Just for the sake of satisfying my own curiosity, I looked further (back when it all happened) into the person who hacked into my account and found some interesting stuff. The perp took some measures to cover their steps, but it was done very poorly:
1. The name and address used for the purchase belonged to a woman who lived at the address used for delivery in South Atlanta (verified that). I decided to check her social media, and saw that she held a job as a nurse or something like that, with nothing suspicious pointing at her actually being the perp. Her account looked pretty "professional" and normal.
2. Suspiciously enough, she didn't even have a Hyundai Genesis car, which is what the parts were ordered for. But then I noticed something interesting.
3. There was a guy appearing in a lot of her pics that looked like he was her bf. He didn't seem to have a job listed anywhere on any of his social media. He did, however, happened to own a 2012 Hyundai Genesis coupe. Also, most of his FB profile pics were either selfies or of his car or of him brandishing guns (mostly in his bedroom, all while displaying poor trigger discipline), which is not really damning on its own, but in the context, it definitely doesn't play in his favor.
Which leads me to a reasonable hypothesis that the guy who got access to my account used the name and address of his gf to ship the car parts he fraudulently bought, so that she takes the fall in case the authorities decide to investigate.
A number of online services I use send SMSs as a form of 2FA. Apparently this is not entirely safe.
2FA through SMS isn't safe, and while it is better than no 2FA at all, it is just barely better than none. If you are curious to find more info, there is a lot of writing that has been done on this topic. I am very impartial to Brian's writing on security topics, and he has at least one post regarding SMS-based 2FA [0].
0. https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/08/reddit-breach-highlights...
Used hardware for Forensics use and Enterprise grade hardware (PCIe cards) have been pretty good to me.
Honestly Facebook having such aggressive “fake profile” enforcement makes FB marketplace one of the better ways to buy and sell online
If it's a phone, meet them at your carrier's store and have a rep confirm that the phone will work and can be activated on their network (no IMEI block, correct frequencies, etc.).
Ironically, when I tried doing a chargeback on a transaction as a buyer, I got denied after waiting for 30 days for a reply, and had to pay a fee for an "untruthful claim". The bank is Erste Bank in Serbia. In my opinion my claim was valid, as the seller did not reply to me at all.
But, when I used my US credit card to file a chargeback it went through fine and there was no issue. I wonder if some countries are more lax with charge backs?
The explanation I get is that if a card payment was verified by the customer with 3D Secure, it is considered valid and cannot be challenged. Which is true, the customer did enter their personal password on the page, and then the code received by SMS that's valid for 30 seconds. What the banks neglect to consider is a non-cooperating merchant that refuses to return money that was paid under a sales contract and specific conditions, i.e. "I am buying a light green colored desk lamp with frosted glass", and receiving a broken product, or "Item significantly not as described" -- counterfeit product, or a pink ceiling lamp with transparent glass. Banks in the USA almost always take the customer's side.
Interesting to note (because of the proximity and similarity between Canada and USA, vs. say Germany or Spain or Russia), Canadian banks, as far as I know (from friends there), do not take the customers' side if there is no doubt in the security of the payment process and the validity of the authorization, regardless of the claims by the customer.
The claim would go through the police or a formal fraud complaint, and you’d be basically pursuing the fraudster in small claims.
Was this with a credit card or a debit card?
At least with my (European) bank the above is only true for debit cards, while credit card payments can also be chargebacked on contract disputes with the seller.
To submit a chargeback you physically have to go into the bank office, and write a statement, sign at least 5 papers, and wait 30 days for a REPLY. If they approve it, wait 15 days to get the money back, but they can extend it up to 45 days, for a total 75 days of agony and hell.
What is the worst thing to me is that MasterCard/VISA rules should be the same worldwide, and at least for MasterCard, the rules are the same on the Serbia-specific website (https://www.mastercard.rs/sr-rs.html), yet every bank lies it's way into non-compliants with hand-wavy statements about their own terms. Additionally, I pay for a MasterCard Gold which is 3x the price of the regular card, so I could evade this bullit, yet I'm in the same problem as everyone else.
Was it a credit card or debit card?
Debit cards often only provide limited chargeback capability (e.g. if your card is fraudulently used).
This mechanism is quite often used for frauds and unaware entrepreneurs can be robbed out of money - PayPal will refund money, close case without hesitation. I think that only solution would be to use court route but in some cases equipment cost may be lower than attorney and court related costs (in addition to seller not being used to procedures, not aware of what to do).
And that's your problem. If you deny a return within the return period, you're in violation of Amazon policy, and the A-Z team will rightly rule against you. The correct response is to accept the return, then deny a refund after it comes back to you because it wasn't sent back with the same accessories you sent it with.
If it comes back with parts missing, you can do a partial refund. Buyer can still do an A-Z claim, but you’re in a much stronger position, especially if you have proof of how you sent it and how you received it.
They did change to automatically approving returns a few years ago, but with an opt-out ability. My guess is either OP's product fell into an obscure exception to that rule, or OP opted out, or something similar.
https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/G1791
> What should I do if a buyer wants to return an item?
> All Amazon sellers are required to accept returns.
https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/G200495860
Amazon makes the laws and acts as a court now? I don't understand why people respect "company policy" so much. The laws of the land take precedence. We are not corporate slaves.
Also, people respect 'company policy' when they want to do business with that company.
To me this sounds like Amazon is saying "this is too complicated for us, and we don't see how to deal with it, because we don't know who's telling the truth". Like "If you've got a problem and a case, go to the police; not against us, but against the buyer".
But if the author isn't interested in using Amazon after this incident, Amazon's TOS don't matter much.
I'd be interested to hear from someone with a bit more legal knowledge how this might go. It's a good thought for sure.
I'd rather think that Amazon would be forthcoming in assisting any demands an investigation would make, like provide all the information regarding the seller and buyer on this issue to the police.
Sure, it would be nice if Amazon would withhold the money from the buyer until it is proven that the seller has obtained the item, but how does this get proven?
You can't sue the buyer by serving Amazon.
Thanks for that.
They gave the guy a call, he answered with "no hablo inglés" so they hung up and told me, "Sorry, nothing we can do."
See https://www.facebook.com/lalawgroup/posts/1719796444820559
My understanding is they sued the customer, Amazon stepped in to defend them, and they got a judgement against Amazon. But Amazon suspended their account in the meantime.
...which wouldn't matter in this case, because the seller isn't going to use Amazon again anyway after this experience.
Linked post says:
> Nonetheless, the court found that Amazon was at fault, and liable for the item, and ordered a judgment in favor of plaintiff against Amazon.
So basically sounds like the seller recovered their money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_claims_court#United_Stat...
Collecting on these sort of judgments can be difficult, time consuming, and frustrating.
> Collecting on these sort of judgments can be difficult, time consuming, and frustrating.
Definitely, and it's quite possible at the end of the day the fraudster doesn't have significant assets to recover. Still, might be worth trying it for $2900 or more, depending on how you value your time.
It's possible they still have the camera, if they weren't just scoring goods for resale.
It doesn't seem right, you could definitely abuse it to make someone's life miserable.
Most cases are clear cut so the ruling is straightforward. Doesn't mean you'll actually get compensated. However, you can apply to get it enforced by a sheriff I believe.
But even then, I'd take a day trip to Florida for $2905.99. Heck, this is a great time of the year to go, and I usually don't make any money when I go there.
That passed the House, but almost certainly will die in the Senate considering that in the House it only had 2 Republicans vote for it and 183 against it (14 not voting). Democrats were 223 for, 2 against, 9 not voting.
[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1423
I say "thief" because that's how it looks to me. But how can I or Amazon be confident given the evidence I've only just read about?
What would help is posting up front a list of evidence that would convince Amazon in case of a dispute. If Amazon does not provide this then perhaps a third party could figure it out and post it.
It does not seem to be a good place to buy or sell expensive items.
Fuck amazon - newegg is cheaper anyway.
Also, Newegg gave up on maintaining their reliable filtering tools for third party sellers.
In any case, isn't the author's scenario pretty bizarre? I had no idea that Amazon served as a mechanism for selling one-off small scale used items. Further the author mentions that it would be cheaper buying and selling than renting...only this is precisely the risk you need to factor in buying and selling (which could have been a fake cheque, getting rolled during the exchange, etc).
I ordered a 2017 Dell XPS and got the 2018 model instead, didn't complain.
So assuming you sold this as used, that sucks I feel for you. However if your one of those scumbags who sells used things on Amazon as new I have no sympathy and I would happily report you for my money back. (I have encountered this maybe twice in all the electronics I buy on Amazon)
If you want to sell used things you have opened, flag them as such on Amazon or go to Ebay. I buy from both places and will always take a deal on a cheaper gently used item if its disclosed up front.
Edit: For clarity, FTA > "To this day, I have no idea what he claimed was “missing” from the package. I even included all the original plastic wrap!" He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?
He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?
Also damn on the downvotes. Guess as someone buying online I should just enjoy getting used shit sent to me at a new price?
The guy got scammed thousands of dollars and you're "that guy" saying it's probably his fault with no evidence.
Just say, "sorry this happened to you, that sucks" or say nothing.
Umm, I had you until that line...
That line of unquestioning sympathy may be polite, but it leads us to nowhere. Or more precisely, to insular groups of internally self-validating comments with no sanity check or objective truth.
Tone, hey, sure, maybe OP could've been a bit more reserved.
But I will defend vehemently against attempts to sanction people with questions and wanting to know details before committing their moral outrage one way or another.
The seller denied the return (against Amazon's policies). The buyer should return the item, but the seller slipped up and the buyer was entitled to open an A-Z Guarantee claim.
The reason why this matters is because "New" items are grouped in a separate tab/link on the product detail page.
Frankly speaking, selling anything other than sealed products in perfect conditions as "New" opens you up to misery.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
> New: Just like it sounds. A brand-new, item. Original manufacturer's warranty, if any, still applies, with warranty details included in the listing comments. Original packaging is present for most New items but certain items like shoes may be re-boxed.
> Used - Like New or Open Box: An item in perfect working condition. Original protective wrapping may be missing, but the original packaging is intact and in good condition with minor damage possible. Instructions are included.
Reading those two descriptions, and considering a brand new, never used item, which has had the box opened and then the items re-packed into it as they originally were (in perfect condition, in their original wrap, unused, no fingerprints, etc.), I would definitely consider that "new", not "used - like new". As a buyer I would also have no problem receiving such an item.
If the box had any kind of shrink wrap, adhesive seal, or anything else that's now missing or broken, it is unambiguously "Used - Like New or Open Box". That's literally what "open box" means.
As I buyer, I would absolutely have a problem buying, say, a new MacBook on Amazon that was missing its original shrink-wrap.
It's simple: is there any detectable difference from how you bought it, or any packaging replaced? If so, then it's not new. Period.
I'm not sure how that is ambiguous when used specifically calls out "Open Box".
(and FWIW, the article doesn't actually say whether it was used or not - it says "mint-in-box", which doesn't necessarily mean completely unused)
Sounds like a good way to receive products that failed customer QA, and that the customer can't return themselves for some reason.
If you're going to sell on Amazon, use FBA.
A-z claims cannot be filed on FBA orders.
If this is in fact your last sale on Amazon, and you no longer intend to do business with them, email Jeff@Amazon.com as a last resort.
Keep in mind, that email should not be used lightly. Be succinct and stoic. Provide proof that you have done everything else to resolve the matter.
https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/...
A popular PetaPixel post that gets coverage on additional social platforms is your only form of recourse against Amazon.
The first two email complaints went unresponded to. After threatening to put on tiktok, I got a phone call from the regional director in charge of the deliveries within two days.
* I swear it seems like there's a simple algorithm that scans the message for trigger words and then chooses a response based solely on those trigger words. I've received responses to issues completely unrelated to my entire message, except for the fact that they're about something I briefly mentioned in an aside or something like that. It's horribly horribly frustrating, even when I know it's going to happen.
Because they only had my email address and building location, Amazon repeatedly called the property agency, who (stupidly) gave them my phone number and details.
Honestly asking, there might be some special team to go through the jeff@amazon.com emails.
https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/5-years-later-jeff-bezos-...
Yes it does. It goes to his executive team. Granted, I haven't used that email in almost 2 years. I hear response time is way longer nowadays.
>But I can just hit up Jeff like it's no big deal?
No, you'll get ignored if your issue is not substantial or if you haven't gone through every other possible method of resolution. This is the "supreme court" of Amazon support, akin to the Ombudsman's office.
If you email the CEO, it goes to a team of people who handle those messages, not just to him personally. It's not guaranteed to work, but it sometimes does.
Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories? One could just unpack the box right after filming.
No, of course not. Buyer didn't provide any details about what was missing or what was received. This isn't a level he-said/she-said, it's one party being forthcoming and the other evasive. Both parties had equal opportunity to lie, but only one put in effort to appear honest. Amazon should at least hold their scammers to a higher standard.
I offered him to return the item even at my expense, he refused. He threatened of negative feedback, made a claim with PayPal and got half the amount back pretty much instantly, and kept the item of course.
Since this I've decided that when I don't need something anymore I'm just better off donating it or simply trashing it. Dealing with dishonest buyers and everyone siding with them by default is just not worth the hassle.
This was an issue for music gear too, but somehow reverb.com managed to address it and make it a pretty painless experience. Their customer service is excellent, and if one of the two parties are unsatisfied, they'll intervene and try to find a compromise. They send you boxes to ship your gear in, they set up shipping for you, they automatically track the shipment as it gets picked up etc. I've been hoping to find something similar for camera gear, but have had no luck so far.
The only downside is that the prosumer camera equipment world seems to be rapidly shrinking, so it might be not a great idea to step into this space right now. Whereas there doesn't seem to be a dearth of people buying guitars, drum kit pieces and effects pedals.
As a buyer I've had zero problems with Keh the couple of times I've used them.
I think those services can be useful for buyers, but sellers who want to get the most for their gear will avoid them. Like you said, something like Reverb could compete on taking a smaller cut.
Edit:
1. Dictionary: evil, adj.: morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant
2. To get the prompt you need to stay around on the page for a while, scroll around, pretend to read it. Triggers at least in mobile chrome browser.
You didn't get hurt by this.
Google (ha) has a better definition: profoundly immoral and wicked
EDIT: Also, I think "outright evil" is a bit strong. A dark pattern for sure, but not quite evil.
Frankly, selling anything on Amazon is crazy. But if you do have to, vet your buyer. Look at their previous purchases and feedbacks. Avoid the quick deal that will blow in your face.
The bottom line is that eBay (and Amazon too) are more focused on the buyers. Buying on eBay is great, because you have 100% buyer protection. There's no seller protection at all.
I'd recommend sticking to either local selling apps (like Craigslist etc.) where you can verify the buyer (though stay safe and do it somewhere public), or through online communities that manage access and feedbacks (there are several on Reddit and Facebook).
1) who in there right mind would buy something online where there is no protection (sellers aren't the same as they have to sell somewhere to make a living).
2) most buyers are honest who just want their item. Profiting from fraud as a buyer is a lot more work as they need to resell the item to gain currency, which is risky (both from exposing themselves to stolen item investigations as well as being a victim of fraud themselves as a seller).
3) imagine if sellers could just ship rocks to buyers instead of cameras without consequence. Every scammer and his dog would be in on the gig without 5 seconds. (1) becomes even more bleak.
The general view is sellers need to take fraud into their overall operating expense budget, just like department stored do with shoplifting.
Worse, eBay sent warning messages claiming that the accounts were suspected of being compromised, so the scum company knows it and still doesn’t block the accounts.
How’s that work when selling a single item?
But naturally sellers are then cutting down their potential buyer pool - it's a dilemma they need to deal with.
Of course one easy way to do this is cut out the entire online buyer pool altogether and sell your camera at a pawn shop - near-zero chance of fraud there.
Why don't sellers just do this? Because they want more money than the pawn shop is willing to offer, so they take the risk of selling online.
It's always important to remember what we are actually buying and selling a lot of the time is risk - the value of the item is often just a fraction of the overall purchase amount.
My favorite Amazon "scam" examples are products ordered from Amazon that drop ship from Walmart. I call it a scam but some people would say it's a service...
Buyers also generally have to buy somewhere, especially for necessities. The difference is that finding a place to buy is easier than finding a place to sell.
> 2) most buyers are honest who just want their item. Profiting from fraud as a buyer is a lot more work as they need to resell the item to gain currency, which is risky (both from exposing themselves to stolen item investigations as well as being a victim of fraud themselves as a seller).
You don't have to just resell to profit. Just buy stuff you want anyways then complain.
> 3) imagine if sellers could just ship rocks to buyers instead of cameras without consequence. Every scammer and his dog would be in on the gig without 5 seconds. (1) becomes even more bleak.
The current system works because there are many buyers and few sellers. Most people are honest. And everyone buys things. But most people don't sell things. Skewing in favor of the buyer makes it so the few sellers aren't overrun by fraudsters. If even 10% of the dishonest people in the world were actively selling stuff on Amazon, it would probably be a huge problem.
Much of what gets sold online is discretionary purchases, not necessities. Like cameras. And necessities are cheap and readily available down the road - why wait for toothpaste to ship online when you can buy a tube on your way home from work?
> You don't have to just resell to profit. Just buy stuff you want anyways then complain.
Well you really do, if your goal is to acquire currency. Having a garage full of stolen items is a liability, not profit.
> The current system works because there are many buyers and few sellers.
It works because buyers are willing (and able) to spend money. It's the only ingredient necessary for a market. Demand will always create supply one way or another.
> Most people are honest.
There is little evidence of this outside of Japan. Drop $50 in a carpark and see how many people return it to the store.
> Skewing in favor of the buyer makes it so the few sellers aren't overrun by fraudsters.
I am not sure what this means. Skewing in favor of buyers creates conditions where there are buyers in the first place, allowing for the market to exist. I suspect the reason sellers aren't swamped by fraudsters is as I said in a different comment - profiting from fraud as a buyer is difficult, dangerous, and requires a lot of effort and work. Most buyers just want their items. ALL sellers want to make money, and a fair percentage are happy to ship sub-quality garbage for over-inflated prices (a kind of fraud in itself?).
I tried to look for a way to report the seller to Amazon, but from what I found, I need to have a seller account with Amazon to do so, which I don't. As a customer, I can't report the product without buying it first. Does anyone have a link or email I can use to reach out to someone at Amazon about this?
Some of these products have thousands of positive reviews[1]. I find it misleading, and to be a nuisance to consumers who rely on these reviews to guide their purchases. I don't know why Amazon makes it so difficult to report these fraud schemes.
Since I found it difficult to reach out to Amazon, I reported the seller to my state Attorney General's consumer protection division and to the FTC. Since then, I've gotten even more ads like this, and I don't have the time to report them all to agencies that may or may not follow up on my reports.
But thanks anyway.
Seller can also do that, but a third party doing it with no horse in the race can act like a notary. We are verifying what we saw. A camera box with X pounds of weight.
If seller wants them to verify the inside contents, he needs to Show them the inside contents. Then UPS will be confirming by photos that yes, an item with this serial number is there inside and we packed it.
Its kind of slippery slope. What if its just a empty camera body? What is its a junk camera? What if buyer says these above falsely?
Scammy buyer would purchase say, 32GB sticks of RAM and ship back 1GB sticks with the stickers swapped.
As a general rule, if the main differentiating feature of the product is hard to verify, or if the product is expensive and easy to resell, stay away.
Asking to meet on the steps of a police station does a great job of filtering out scammers.
Are those local-selling apps any better in quality of transactions? Letgo, Offerup etc.?
When I used to sell bikes/parts on CL, my rule was anything over 200$ I would only do in-person and locally (Besides, any full bikes in that price are probably too expensive to ship.)
And frankly, If it's something you have a hobby doing, you can wind up meeting some people who share your interests. When I sold a Mountain Bike to a guy we wound up meeting in front of a CVS and just shot the shit for a good half hour after the sale.
There's not much need to worry about buying on Amazon.
I do t know what Fred Miranda is, but eBay will also always side with the buyer.
I’ve had FedEx steak from me twice. Caught both times, but only because I really pressed the issue.
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