What happens to a mail-order mattress after you return it
fivethirtyeight.com
fivethirtyeight.com
At least, until I found something I liked. I purchased a Purple 3, thinking that if I loved it, I'd just stick with it. I did love it, but I couldn't justify spending $2k on a twin(!). I returned it, and purchased from another company for ~$700. I didn't like it as much as the Purple, but when I went to begin the return, I was told that there was no return process, and that I could "move the mattress to a different room, or donate it." Two days later, I received a refund for the full purchase amount. That ended my journey; no awesome mattress at any price beats "decent and free."
As much as I appreciate getting a new mattress for zilch, the experience made me extremely wary. Was my mattress so cheaply-made that the manufacturer could afford to give them away? What was up? So I did some research. It turns out that the mattress industry is a racket. The markups are ludicrous; almost every mattress on the market costs, at most, a few hundred dollars to make. And then it's also impossible to comparison shop because "models" differ based on retailer by one or two small features; that means no price-matching, if you can even tell what you're buying.
These are the kinds of things that make people suspicious of the way the economy is set up. It should be easy to find out what you're purchasing, and then to pay a fair price for it. Instead you have entire manufacturing-retail chains built on obfuscation and able to eat untold amounts in lost product.
Shipping is expensive, especially for something as heavy and bulky as an uncompressed foam mattress. Among other things, I have a free stroller (sans cup holder) and a life-time supply of Feather razor blades (they accidentally sent the bulk packaging) because Amazon didn't want to pay for return shipping.
Factor in the risks and headaches of trying to resell a used mattress, and I can easily see never wanting to take one back even if it means having to factor into the regular price the costs of finicky buyers. The mattress market is weird: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/mattress-store-bubble/
I bought a queen for around $600. It's fine. Improving sleep has been more about exercising more often, decreasing screen time, and reading/meditating before bed.
And I've personally had everything from a waterbed to a (high-end) futon in my own house.
So I know I don't want something really crappy but so long as I don't go off in some weird direction or really cheap out, I'm sure I'll be just fine.
Also, I tend to be hot generally including when sleeping. From what I've read, a foam mattress may not be a great choice given that.
Non-memory latex foam lets you sleep much cooler because you don't sink into it so much. I also tend to be too warm and have used latex foam mattresses for the last 20 years. They have been fine, unlike memory foam.
I can’t really say that taking a company up on a free trial counts as wardrobing.
I told them, they said to throw it away and they would send me a new one. They sent me a new one but I repaired the other one - it seemed line a terrible waste to toss it. It crossed my mind that I could claim similar things for other objects even when they weren't broken.
That said, they both broke within a year. Taught me another lesson: buy cheap, replace yearly. Better than buying expensive and replacing yearly. Now I buy $50 outdoor wooden umbrellas.
It was just the discrepancy between the initial reluctance to throw away, (even though it had been replaced, implying to me ecological /'this is still fundamentally sound and repairable' reasoning) and the ultimate conclusion to throw away every year.
No judgement, just confusion.
On a tangent, I dislike more and more the unrepairability and complexity of things. I'd love to be capable of making everything for myself, from basic components (not necessarily scratch). Still not for eco reasons, it may be worse (less efficient) in some cases in that regard, but just to know how everything worked and was put together, and be able to fix it all because I built it in the first place.
These companies are all marketing companies. There is no “science” they literally get rolls of foam from foam makers, throw them on in layers and try to find the right combo. I was there, I’ve done it myself.
The companies that end up winning have fantastic marketing, like purple, or were early, like Casper.
Markup for foam mattresses in general is close to 2000%. Average foam cost for a king mattress was <$50. The old school mattress companies are close to The same which is why they have stores on every corner.
The industry is dirty as hell and as cut throat as they come.
As far as the returns, a reputable company will send the Salvation Army or local equivalent to pick up the mattress and it becomes a tax write off for the company. Otherwise like others have said they will tell you to keep it. No sense bringing it back to the warehouse and in a lot of places it is illegal to resell a mattress.
AMA if you want. Fascinating industry.
https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-blogg...
What experience do you have to assert "These companies are all marketing companies. There is no “science” they literally get rolls of foam from foam makers, throw them on in layers and try to find the right combo. I was there, I’ve done it myself."
If all those retailers are themselves buying from a small number of suppliers, they could be paying a lot of that markup, while their own margin is razor thin due to cutting each others' throats.
So for mattresses you really can't afford low margins if you want to stay in business. I can't imagine mattress stores sell more than several mattresses a month. As for why Casper and Purple mattresses are so much when you are supposedly removing the middle-man (the physical stores), I'm not sure. Because they can? I don't really understand why someone would buy one of their mattresses that you can't test out at a store, when you can pay the same price at a store and test out all your options.
This could apply to cars (and it does a bit) but the higher price and social factor makes people understand them more. Mattresses are just cheap enough (with just enough "bargains") that it's easier to just get it over with.
For your last point I'm from Australia so our brands are different but we have plenty of the online foam mattresses. I got one because mattress stores felt a lot like a car sales lot last time - clingy, pressure tactics from someone with a massive information advantage. The online companies all had full refund policies so there's limited risk apart from time.
But there are people who do buy them often enough - hotels! I like to find a Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt/IHG standard mattress and it should be good enough. Ask a hotel manager to hook you up, should only be $250 to $500 at most for a King.
As someone who bought a mattress online:
1. You don't have to go to a store, which makes it much more convenient to buy. 2. If you don't like it, you can return it for a full refund, so there's no possibility of wasting money on a mattress you don't like.
I think I paid around 30€ to buy a foam mattress in Germany
https://www.lidl.de/de/matratzen/c11480
Edit: Here's the german discounter store archive, it lists past sales of the three largest chains Lidl, Aldi north/south. Just search for "Matratze" and you can check past sales up to 15yrs ago:
As for a startup, generally people don't buy mattresses that often, but I know I would if they were 100$. Even cheap ones end up around 5-700$, which is nowhere near an impulse buy. As a result, I only replace a mattress if it's completely worn out, which takes a solid 10-15 years.
Funny how popular it is to replace the 800$ phone every 1-3 years but 1-3k$ has to wait until the mattress is unbearable. Everyone I know has this attitude for mattresses.
1) There are already lots of cheap memory foam mattresses that are relatively well reviewed on Amazon for example this one for $200 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00474X5DO/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_z... (not a recommendation, just looked it up).
2) The average markup isn't 2000%. You can look at Casper's COGS in their S-1. Also, the return rate is built into the cost, so that adds to it.
3) In general, a cheap mattress is going to be perceived as low quality. It's like how nobody wanted Warby Parker glasses when they were priced around $20. Then they changed the price to $99+ and they actually improved sales.
I’d have to look at my data to see CPC costs but i tried a lot of angles and channels to generate sales cheaply and struggled to find anything sustainable.
CPCs, ad dollars, imagery, affiliate commissions hell, It’s only a matter of time before some affiliate comes in this thread pumping their garbage mattress review site. Half of them you can even get listed on without them asking for a special deal or rate.
The market is super saturated CPCs, affiliate commissions and the rest of the advertising eats into the real margin.
The rest of it I always saw that people associated more expensive with better when in reality there isn’t that much difference in quality. ie they will all suffer from sagging at some point. Brands play into this too.
Back when I listened to the radio, there were literally mattress store ads multiple times an hour, all day every day. Sleep Train, etc. Is that the key to their "fantastic marketing?"
They assume it's high end because, to them, it is.
Anyway, talks about how they got started out in the late 1800s and how starting in the 1980s things started getting cheaper and cheaper and then started getting moved to China for manufacture.
Then it gets into how this guy worked to actually keep the company he inherited up and running in the US.
Was pre-2016, but the book definitely had undertones of all the big "culture" stories that went around that election.
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18774017-factory-man
I'm sitting on a Flexsteel couch right now that is ten years old and takes a regular beating from four young kids, as well as a lot of use by adults. It's still as good as new.
If you like pillow tops or those egg shell foam pads you can also just buy them separately.
The test should be done when both the mattress are new.
PS: Body weight is a huge part of this. Gain or lose significant weight and your preference is likely to change.
The fact that we all sleep in hotels though shows you that the mattress resale laws are kind of weird or antiquated .. e.g. maybe last century. It seems like there should be a rehab process that allows a mattress to be resold "used" but clean. I am guessing the reason is health and safety but given craigslist where mattress change hands ad infinitum I am not sure how big the risk is. The fire risk is obviously a bigger deal.
They have a real talent for going unnoticed, even when there are dozens or hundreds of them. People often discover an infestation due to bites or poop smears, not from seeing a live bug at any time.
They mostly come out at night and I think they can hibernate for long periods, like weeks or months. They are quite hard to get rid of once they get into something like a mattress.
Up to that point I've lived in shady places with ants, roaches and rats and other shitty stuff but none of that bothered me too much, so I thought I could handle any shitty living arrangement as long as the price was right, but the bed bugs thing was by far the most nerve wracking experience of my entire life, and even made me contemplate suicide at one point. I learned to not cheap out on a place to live ever since... And definitely never pick up used furniture lying on the sidewalk, which I used to do a lot...
So yeah... I can see why people might have reservations against used mattresses...
Oh man that brings back some memories, I used to have bites all over my hands and I just assumed its because of mosquitoes although I had not seen or heard a mosquito in the room. 2 weeks after first bite was discovered I saw a bed bug running away slowly because it was full with my blood. I followed it under the bed where I saw a huge colony of bed bugs, I was literally speechless, just could not believe, there were so many of them all living on my blood.
And yes, "no aircon" also applies. Aircon is a recent thing and most (almost all?) houses outside of the Alice metro don't have it. Hotels that leave the aircon on can still have bed bugs:
https://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/2015/11/21/finke-heenan-...
But notice this quote: "As I left they gave me a black plastic bag and advised me to keep my clothes in the bag and leave it in the sun for a few days to kill the bugs. The bags were kept on the counter so it seemed standard procedure to provide departing guests with them."
In reality most houses north of 30 degrees and west of the great dividing in Australia will kill the bugs if you lock them up in the summer letting the temp inside get 10C degrees above ambient. As it happens Australia statuary minimum requirement for workers annual holidays is 4 weeks, and it's traditional to take it over Xmas - which is our summer.
In reality most of the country lives east of the great divide, however even where I live on the coast at 27 degrees south it hits 40C ambient for few days. It doubt it would be hard to nudge it another 10, and a bed bug biting me on the arse would be more than enough incentive for me to find out.
And no, I would not be in staying in the house at the time. As you say, that would be crazy.
1. It's fine and goes everywhere. Breathing it is especially ill-advised.
2. The first light breeze, mammal to walk by or light misting of rain will wipe it away.
Giving yourself silicosis in the process of not actually killing them.
One of my former roommates got bed bugs that were living in the wall from either the neighbor or a previous tenant. Only insecticides are going to solve that problem, not some holistic, "negative ions" (radioactive thorium) panacea snake oil.
https://www.wellness-heaven.de/wellness/study-theft-in-hotel...
Limited choice, lower margin.
I'd recommend latex foam. Material is more expensive so there's less wiggle space to apply huge markups.
Short of that you can find knock off versions on Amazon that might not last you as long but for a fraction of the price $100-200 iirc
There's a reason wealthy politicians don't release their tax return... Neither Trump nor Bloomberg.
Just remember, profit is never what it seems, it's always far lower than what you think it is. The only time you spike it up is when you're ready to sell.
By what you linked from Casper: "we are not required to submit certain executive compensation matters to stockholder advisory votes", "we are not required to comply with certain disclosure requirements related to executive compensation, such as the requirement to disclose the correlation between executive compensation and performance and the requirement to present a comparison of our Chief Executive Officer's compensation to our median employee compensation.", but, but why wouldn't you tell them anyway, what are you hiding?
Especially when you manufacture in a poor country that's manufacturing a "high quality" product that justifies its high price by its "unique product" meanwhile you own the company the other country and it's impossible for the US to ever know that, not even as if they're even capable of taxing that foreign income that you use to take luxurious vacations in Macao with as you do business in Hong Kong, spending all of it tax free because you didn't make it in the US, even bringing a few rolex's home for cheaper that the market price is in the US to move the money over - you make money to bring your money from Vietnam to the US!
Source: Will be paying $6 in taxes this year
For $1000 in a wallet, will you search for who dropped it if there's no ID but you know it wasn't there a minute ago? A few seconds pass and they're lost in the times square crowd. If you had shouted "wallet!", everyone would have touched their pocket, and a man would have said "fuck!" and then ran over to you. But you paused. Now he's gone. Why? Why did you pause? You find the wallet again tomorrow, you look around as you put $1000 in your pocket. It seems, it seems this is normal you say. He keeps leaving this wallet. You tour Macao with your gf before coming home, and finding that wallet one more time in times square. Do you take it? You're loved now more than ever by your family, and your unbelievable vacation experience. You take it, you slowly walk away.
It's too easy.
The accountant gives you your tax return, and you saved $1000. You end up being bored and scroll through it, and you see something that's pretty dubious, it's legal I guess you say to yourself but you know it's moving the money around in a weird way. You talk to the account, but he already submitted it to the IRS. What do you do now? I mean, I guess maybe I'll think about it next time. Next time comes, you know what'll happen, but you never open the pdf. That's the wallet. The wallet with $1000 in it. You only cost each American, what, pennies? micro-pennies? nano-pennies? There's not even anyone to return it to, no one who will thank you. The IRS will say "Uh, okay I guess", as the federal budget squanders the money away anyway.
The next year, it's $10000. What do you do now? You've been doing it for years. The IRS already audited and said you're good to go. Do you do something? There's always the gateway drug, each step is easier than the last.
I agree, it's horrible, it's evil, you can feel it. But, but do you, personally, say no?
The middle class is no better, money makes you evil once you get it, you have no choice. Power makes you evil, even the priests can't stop molesting. There's no choice, when you're 7 orders of magnitude away from what things actually cost in day-to-day life it becomes much harder to swallow paying $100M more in taxes than you could be paying, especially when you can get the IRS to audit you and they begrudgingly agree that it's completely legal, by the same laws that the people can protest for and control if they care enough about it.
The other valid option is to make middle class life so enjoyable that you don't have the motivation to accumulate wealth, working 9-5 commuting and eating dinner means you have only 2 hours left to actually do something, that life sucks, it's horrible. Weekends are just enough time to recover for the next Monday, that's why ads on YouTube business videos will show someone throwing money around saying "Are you ready to quit your 9-5?", it's a dream. Europe mastered the art of making middle class life good enough to quell the desire for business, so much PTO, so many vacations and weeks off, so many people working "80%" or "60%" schedules where they take days off or work fewer hours, college free no debt, Singapore gave everyone a house now no one has to pay rent. But did the 512 million people in the EU invent the smartphone? We'd be stuck in the 1960s if America didn't exist, Europe didn't invent anything or innovate in any way. No one wanted to. So in a way, the system works, it keeps innovation running, when communism created something horrible for the people and socialism keeps them stuck in time forever. The deep desire to live the businessman's life is why the economy continues to improve by 2% year over year as Trains and Model T's turn into 747's and SpaceX, there's an extreme need for that life that socialism quells and communism obliterates.
It sounds so stupid to you too, why do they protest for PTO? I'll just take that money out of their salary. They're too stupid to save the money themselves? I had to save so much money to get here, from the same 9-5 that they are in. The sympathy disappears. If you were forced to take vacations that you didn't even want, you know you could've never became rich. The fucking hour break I had to take lunch off for in California was abuse for 4 months, I NEEDED that hour! I NEEDED it to grow the businesses, the startups, the credentials to network with! I ask - Can I have lunch at 4pm, ie just leave early? No. It's illegal. It's fucking agony to be shoved around by the bureaucracy, each law making harder for you to accumulate wealth, to buy freedom. I NEED that hour. I can't even use the fucking computers because they "think that's work" when you have the terminal open and they're terrified of the government and bad PR. You NEEDED that hour. These socialists just want to squander away what they need to actually live the life they want to live. The sympathy runs to zero, businessmen grow up as kids loving Sanders and people like Yang, it disappears as they become Republicans later in life, holding abortion in front of them like a carrot on a stick as a way to sway an easily manipulable audience.
But, you never feel bad. In Tech, they never keep it (The old money and traditional businessmen are the scumbags, fucking Waltons). After you retire, you're done working, you turn back into your old self, the way you were when you were 12 years old begging for people to vote for redistributing the wealth, begging to tax the rich, begging to close the loopholes. You calm down. The passion slows. You donate your money, you build universities, you create foundations and charities. Gates was ruthless for most of his life, but what does he do now? You obviously can't spend it. What the fuck do you even buy. There's nothing that costs that much! You just give it away, your friends, your family, most of it back to the people.
And, when you think about it, what do you have now? Paper? Paper means nothing. You created millions of dollars in value for all these people - the money is right there, you can see the value you generated. And you never actually made them work. They never had to work for it, at all. You gave them value, they gave you paper. You innovate the economy, you move it forward, you created jobs, and the people never had to pay for it. The people have a fake dream that redistributing paper will make them work less. No, who's going to spend the paper more? The businessmen who was addicted to accumulating it, or the middle class themselves. Overall, they just make themselves work more when you move the paper around. You can end your life burning the billions away. Well, it's on a computer, so that's more boring. But still, if it disappears into a black hole, the middle class never actually had to work for me. I worked for them. The economy runs because businessmen play the clicker game of their life, addicted to the number rising like its cocaine.
Just, imagine you were in a simple tribe. You used sea shells to trade. You make a hat, give him a seashell, and he gives it back to you only if you make him a table. But, this one guy seems obsessive, he'll collect all of them. He gives you technology in return. The man, never actually seem to do anything in response? You 'print' seashells, give it to him, and he tells people what exactly they have to do to optimize building houses, farming food, building computers hardware software, he positions the pawns to run optimally and most efficiently. The government fucks up and wastes $80M building a fucking elevator shaft. And, you, the tribe member, wait for the businessman to use the seashells in return, just like how everyone else makes a table for seashells, and you make food when people give you the seashells. You expect to have to work for him, you know you could end up working for life if he gave you enough seashells. But that never happens. The man just, keeps them. He loves them. He looks at how shiny they are. But mostly just keeps to himself. And then at the end, he uses the seashells to tell people how to build extravagant libraries, universities, charities, foundations, helping the needy. And, that's it, that's all that ever happens. You, make food for your fellow middle class'ers. You eat your food for 1/100th the cost it would take to pay a 1700s farmer, because the man told the farmer how to farm really well. But, you never actually need to give the mysterious man anything. He never spends his seashells.
The intellectuals are interesting, they invent circuits, they invent the internet. But nothing happens. A decade passes, and nothing. No one uses it. A few universities use it, a few nerds, but that's it. The USSR obviously does fuck nothing with it even though their nerds did the same thing. No, you brought it to the people. Now everyone has it. They have high bandwidth, low latency, billions of people have it, they have every type of website they could ask for. Before it was just a few nerds in a university, stuck for a decade doing nothing to get it into the masses. They'd be suck forever if Europe was the only country. Making flat-screen monitors was grueling research, it took millions of hours, none of it was fun like how playing with circuits was fun for Turing or Von Neumann, and it took another 50 years to get the research into public hands through the funding by for-profit AT&T into Bell Labs. Europe? They did nothing. No one would have ever invented the flat screen monitor if it wasn't for you - I'm talking to you - feel it -, no one would ever have put so much effort to improve the smartphone's screen so that it's at the quality that it is today. That research was not fun, no one in universities ever helped. If the world was Europe and the USSR, after a thousand years, no one would have ever invented and innovated these items. China might have came around, they're just copycats but that's our fault we were here first, China could've invented it themselves. But maybe, if they didn't see us, they never would've pivoted to capitalism. America's legal system is why we're in the modern world, no one else did it, and no one else was even making progress.
You end up, not really feeling bad about it. You did what you had to do. You give each kid connections, networks, not money. You know money is worth nothing in business, only credentials. So you have no reason to pass the money down. You just give it away to the people. You give it away, you don't spend it, don't give it to your kids, give it to the people! The morals feel great. (The people who setup trust funds for their children and descendants are bastards, the kids generate no value, they make the people work for them like slaves as the kids give the people useless seashells in return, and you miss out on the value that they could have generated if they were also businessmen, though that ends up reducing the average IQ of businessmen overtime which fucks everything up, there's a balancing act there)
In it Europe hasn’t invented anything.
Quality of life is just a sham invented by politicians to keep the plebs from demanding... quality of life?
And since you mentioned a 747 as an example of Americas greatness. Well the 747 is but we have been witnessing the real life consequnces of the ‘greed-is-good’ approach to business on a once-great engineering company.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-boeing-manager-s...
Notably: "For the first time in my life, I’m sorry to say that I’m hesitant about putting my family on a Boeing airplane," Ed Pierson wrote to a company executive before the first tragedy.
This would never happen if the executives were engineers. Every time we, humanity, eventually gets stuck in a rut. The Romans invent the most unbelievably complex and well structured government of their time, while the gauls hunt like animals, and they conquer the world, they develop all of the technology (Well, the greeks were even better with their near idealistic Athens, but like the PhDs it never gets implemented or spreads). So the Romans do this, they win. Then...., nothing happens. It goes to shit. The Patricians murder the Plebians who protest, they become corrupt, the people have less and less control, it becomes awful. Then, dictatorship. Then, emperor. Who were the people who drafted the first setup of the roman government? They're 600 years dead, and those who replaced them made it shit. Took 1000 years to recover. The founding fathers. Compare George Washington, and his morality, to our modern politicians. No one had any reason to do anything other than create the perfect government, everyone helped, it was collaborative. Now they're cutthroat. It always goes to shit. Corporations are the new target. The founding fathers tried so hard to put every single failsafe they could, because they knew. They knew they knew. They knew those who would come after them would make it shit. While the founding fathers intentionally put failsafes - the entire article is a big ass fail safe you just read it (It just says exactly what the restrictions are - if people acted just like the founded fathers did they would never need restrictions in the first place), our modern politicians research every possible exploit to the system as if they're in infosec. Gerrymandering, oops! Jefferson forgot about that one, it took 300 years to discover the buffer overflow, but if it's discovered it's abused. Every metric becomes a target. The target of "leading the revolution" gave people who were intelligent and passionate about saving their country. The target of "becoming a politician" in 2020 is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Stone I highly suggest you read just the paragraph about high school. It shows what you need to be, what the selection criterion is. The only selection criterion that works is: Coming up with something new, a new business, a new idea, a new government. After that, they hunt. They get their MBAs to overthrow you with credentials so that they can squeeze themselves in, even though they didn't found Boeing. The patricians bribe who they had to to squeeze even, even though they never came up with the original government. The politicians cheat what they must to squeeze into what the founding fathers tried to prevent. Someone has their eyes on the prize.
Mind you, the French are just as intelligent as the Italians, they're nearly identical at birth, only culture separates them. A french man who grew up in italy is an italian man. It's the system that is what separated the gauls from the romans, and it's survival of the fittest, you're the first to have an opposable thumb then you win. Whoever figures out how to create a self propagating government wins, a couple people did, got a few thousand followers, and it propagated. Business is the new self propagating system, until stability is reached. Only the new people have what it takes. It's not really too genetic either, it is in some way have 4 kids one of them will work, what of the other three? Kahn couldn't stop it, Alexander the great couldn't stop it, Romans worked for 300 years because of adoption, but it was still bleeding. Go through the history. Each half century involved more failures by the plebians and more success from the corrupt patricians, it was slow but sped up, more and more restrictions were put on the people by the incumbents. You always need fresh people. Carnegie? Vanderbilt? Compare to the modern CEO of BP...., of Boeing, stability kills. In hackernews, for people in IT, no one knows shitty bosses and executives more than they do.
(I'm not counting the mathematicians of the 1700s that did amazing work, I'm referring to modern Europe and the US, 20th century and beyond)
It's kind of sad that a huge market for businessmen is taking an American business, and just doing the same thing in Europe or Latin America. It's, it's sad. There's uh, absolutely no foreign competition in most situations that we have to meet. The ratio is clearly wrong, and we compete with more companies than we can found so Europe should statistically be represented in the other direction. It's not even that profitable, American consumers are a gold mine they're so price insensitive. And the modern world is mostly what was invented in the roaring 20s in the US, and computing technology that was developed almost entirely in the US.
(The Japanese were trailing along in the 80s I guess, but they were mostly our China, they were just a factory line that we abandoned when China caught up and their GDP has stagnated for 20 years. They had a few great companies, and they still do. South Korea is the only actual one that goes toe-to-toe but they're too small to profit off 300 million people like we can, per capita I do think they are more entrepreneurial and inventive than us though)
There's not even VC money in Europe it's almost impossible to get funded, you need American or Chinese money which means they own most of the business anyway. Like in the US, take the money away, you can get started again. But in Europe? You better buy a plane ticket. No one will fund you. The non-tech companies are mostly incumbents. Or brands like WeWork that are much more expensive than other co-working spaces but they have the brand to hold them up.
This rant is more sad than entertaining, though I was on-board at the start of the comment. Plug back into reality, even just a little bit.
You always have to be humble unless you're a billionaire because there's always someone vastly more powerful and rich than you are, by orders of magnitude. Your network's wealth and power as a normal distribution always ends up trailing behind you as you try to meet new people above you, but there's always the right tail end where you know a few people who could spend your net worth in a night because they want to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrl5PFB35Ec
Look at how humble the CEO of the Maverick's has to be as he meets Mark Cuban. It's somewhere in there, I'm not gonna find the time but it's in there.
I don't know if you've ever seen the Black Mirror dystopia about social media and kissing up to people. There's a lot of that. It sucks. That's why most business events involve drinking until tispy, it loosens everything up.
Everything would be f*cked if you disappeared mining or farming. All in this together.
Yeah brown-nosing has been a problem since the beginning of time, what's it all for? A bigger yacht?
One example I know that played out exactlly like that, Flixbus. The operations part comes from a company, meinfernbus.de, which was acquired by Flixbus (officially they merged) after Flixbus won the marketing battle over customers and had more VC money. The same happened in other countries, e.g. Austria. And Flixbus was totally aware of that and had a marketing strategy to match. Like buying AdWords against their competition and such things.
Valid strategy, but by no means a tech business.
> Markup for foam mattresses in general is close to 2000%.
Why is that markup stable?
What would stop a competitor from selling good $350 mattresses like candy?
Or are there companies that do that and I just don't know about them?
I don't understand this -- you loved the mattress and you knew the price when you ordered, so what other outcome did you expect if you couldn't justify the price to yourself even if you loved it? It seems that you'd have been better off going with a more affordably priced mattress from the beginning like a Leesa or Casper?
Otherwise you're just guaranteeing yourself a lot of hassle to send back a mattress that you know you don't want to pay for. Plus, now you know there's a more comfortable mattress out there that's out of your price range. It's kind of like test driving an $80K Acura when all you can afford is a $30K Honda, sure you may love the Acura, but if you can't afford it anyway, why bother?
2. What's wrong with thinking "Well it is great, but its not $2000 great." You aren't beholden to the thoughts you had about how worth-it it might be before you tried it.
Nothing. But I read the GP comment more along the lines of "It was as great as I imagined it would be but it was still too much money"
Sure, if you can, if something expensive is good but not as great as you hoped it would be for the money, return it. But it's a bit hard for me to see buying (not test driving) something that, however great it is you're not keeping it.
I can see the value in test driving a car a class above your level so you can see what you're missing. When I was looking for a car, I tried out a low-end Acura in addition to a high-end Honda, but those are $35K and $45K cars.
I could probably justify the $10K jump in price if the Acura was spectacular, but no matter how much I love an $80K car, I could never justify buying one.
1. I do get the attraction of some of these cars.
2. Nope. Not worth it to me even though I could afford them if I wanted to.
How much does testing cars cost the dealer? Compare it to the mattress.
"It's kind of like test driving an $80K Acura"
It's much worse than that. When you drive that Acura back into the lot it's still a new car and the eventual buyer will love it just as much. When you return that mattress it's a used mattress that at best is going to be donated to a charity, but more likely is ending up going to a landfill.
Worst-case scenario was that I didn't like any of the replacements and just purchased a new unit later, preferably at a discount. So it just made sense.
yes, mattresses are pretty much a racket.
It's beginning to become common knowledge that paying for a mail-order mattress is often optional. By choosing not to request a refund (and keep the product), you are subsidizing the purchases of everyone else who does.
If you squint this kind of looks like the CyberRebate business model and I wonder how much longer it'll be sustainable.
(The industry also has amusing quirks like https://www.vox.com/2017/9/23/13153814/casper-sleepopolis-la... )
Holey moley, that was a fun rabbit hole
During the dot com bubble of 2000-2001, there was a company where you could buy things online for 10x the normal retail price, but they'd send you a rebate of the price after a couple of months. (And you would keep whatever you'd bought)
Much like every other time someone claimed to make all their profit off of the "float", it turned out to be a big scam
https://www.cnet.com/news/millions-vaporized-in-cyberrebate-...
It's a combination of huge markup on retail prices, acceptable losses due to returns, and mostly just having VC money to burn through.
Even more so on Wayfair, where you can find identical products on the same site that come from the same factory sold by different sellers for different prices, although the quality of Wayfair is more hit or miss than West Elm.
This kind of process is how you end up with the Sonos story where they remotely disable your electronics and you trash it, just so they know they aren’t giving it to you for free. The environment pays the price.
Is it not obvious that part of the high margin that you scoff at goes towards covering your (and everyone else's) ability to return one of the most unwieldy household items on a whim?
Your post makes me wish I could take $500 off my purchase price by checking a "waive ability to refund" box on the checkout page instead of paying extra to subsidize this sort of consumer behavior. ;)
Perhaps these are a sort of the perverse capitalist incentives the hippies keep warning you about. ;)
Isn't this just a result of economies of scale?
Everything becomes cheap, so if you try to buy something expensive you don't necessarily get higher quality. Most likely you'll get ripped off, OR buy something artisanal which means lower consistency (maybe also quality).
That said: the psychology of it is probably that you sleep better in an expensive bed -- even if the only difference is the cost :)
I once tried to purchase foam myself for a old sofa and the foam price was almost as high as purchasing a new sofa.
Sleep on it for a bit. If you don't like the feel, which you probably won't, add a memory foam mattress topper for ~$50. Use a thicker or thinner topper to suit your needs.
Congrats! Because your mattress is firm, its foam will not break down for a long, long time. Sleep easy knowing you didn't waste stupid amounts of money and that your mattress will last essentially forever.
Also, at least in NYC it’s flat rate $50 for home delivery. I ordered on a Wednesday night and was delivered to me that Friday afternoon :) very happy with my cheap ikea mattress.
I've bought ~10 Ikea mattresses, avoided the cheapest ones of each type, and been pretty happy.
I can understand why a foam topper would feel hot. It's main purpose is to provide a sleeping surface that's the same shape as your body, so of course this means it maximises the amount of contact between you and itself. So no space for air to circulate
But I don't understand how a foam topper can screw up your back, unless your mattress is too soft to begin with. A bad/cheap foam topper will compress pretty easily, and provide no additional support, but I don't see what harm it would do.
You've bought ten mattresses from them?! In how many years, and for how many people?
I don't think my parents bought ten mattresses in the 20-odd years they had their four kids living at home - and I still sleep on one of them.
Personally I don't trust anything from Ikea anymore. Their quality is such garbage for all their products from furniture to glassware to lamps, I can't give them a dime of my money knowing whatever I buy won't be around next year. Multiply whatever you were going to spend by 1.5 and go to a decent home store, or just go to Target instead.
In ~20 years. Most are still in use. Some were for my parents, for guest rooms and for flats that ended up being rental properties. I bought two mattresses last year, as we moved to the US from China (which has different bed sizes).
"Their quality is such garbage for all their products from furniture to glassware to lamps"
This is an overstatement. I and my family members have several Pax wardrobes that are still going strong after 20 years. And several Malm dressers that have lasted over 10 years. As long you assemble and install the things correctly, and make sure they're straight, then there's no reason they shouldn't last.
There are Ikea dressers which are less sturdy than the Malm, because the drawer runners are weak ball-bearing style ones, instead of the wheely ones on the Malm. (Ball bearing runners can be great, but the ones I've seen on Ikea dressers aren't designed to carry much load.)
IKEA is such a hit and miss. For the price, their ceramicware is pretty good. All of their glassware is cheap and too small. They can have a really nice real-wood dining room table for $500, or a glued together entertainment unit for $2000.
I generally find they have good quality for wood dining chairs, wood tables, BEKANT desks, and rechargeable batteries.
After about a year or 2, I started to notice that I was not getting good sleep and my back was achy a lot.
I got a new bed with a more conventional mattress, and I was a lot happier with my sleep again.
The old mattress? I gave it to my mother. "Best sleep" situation for her again, but after a while she replaced it.
I think initially the comfort is amazing, but either it slowly erodes your back's health, or you slowly learn to sleep differently on it, and it hurts your back. At least, that's how it seemed for us.
Totally unscientific, but that was my experience.
I otherwise agree with OP. Firm inner spring with medium firm gel foam topper is both cheap and by far the best sleeping experience I’ve ever had. I used a cheap inner spring from wayfair.
To each their own I guess, I own one for 2 years and sleep like a baby every night.
I ended up buying a Leesa and have been very satisfied with it over the past 5 years.
What I actually want to share with you all here is to go to a mom-n-pop mattress store in your local area. Find your local mattress NERD and buy a bed from them. They're going to have all kinds of wild stuff you can try and will do a great job of selling you the right bed for you (and your partner).
My wife and I ended up finding this guy - https://www.youtube.com/user/MattressToGo - and watching some of his (surprisingly popular) videos you will see he is legitimately a mattress nerd.
Coincidentally we lived about an hour from his brick and mortar location so we drove out to check out the showroom and ended up buying a mattress on the spot. It took a few days to arrive but it's without a doubt my favorite mattress.
I love the convenience afforded by these modern startup companies but there is really something to be said for going to someone who has made one thing their entire life's misson and letting them help you out.
I ended up with an online-mattress purchase because of a poor experience with both a Mattress Firm store (pushy salespeople) and most obnoxiously with a specific manufacturer, Simmons. I stayed at an AirBnB in SF years ago and the bed was noticeably the most comfortable bed I've ever slept on. I messaged the host _years_ later and asked him what type of bed it was, and to my surprise and delight, he messaged me back with text and images of the tags on the mattress. When I tried contacting Simmons by phone, email, and even Facebook Message, telling them I would BUY that mattress, no matter the cost, if they could point me in the right direction, I got nowhere and was made to feel like I was a bother. So while it's easy for me to believe that these online mattress companies are marketing companies glueing foam together, maybe this is what we needed to make an outdated industry improve.
Mattress Underground's explanation of local manufacturers is a good start: https://www.themattressunderground.com/the-industry/manufact.... Their forum also has Q&A about specific cities.
The rest of their tutorials are as good as any online: https://www.themattressunderground.com/the-industry/industry..., https://www.themattressunderground.com/mattresses/mattress.h...
I ordered a fridge and dishwasher from Costco. They were scuffed up during delivery.
Costco asked me to bear with them... send pictures... write up a report...
Once Costco was able to stick the delivery company for the bill, they sent me a new set. They didn't care about the original set.
At one point a guy showed up in a pickup. No uniform. Not in a delivery van, or truck. Just a guy with a dolly and a beat-up F150. He said, "I'm here for the old fridge."
When he saw they were new appliances, he was like, "Yeah, {the original delivery company} told me to take them to the dump... let me sell them, I'll come back with a U-Haul." And he kept texting and setting times and not showing. I had a Fridge and Dishwasher in my living room for over a month.
I asked Costco what was up... I asked them to get it take care of ASAP... they were like, "Uh... I mean, I guess we can... or you can just sell them..."
In the end I sold them to a neighbor, for half what I paid... he called the brand repair place and ordered a new door. Which is all I was expecting anyone to do in the first place.
I always had a futon so I immediately switched to that. I also bought a cheap hammock and built some hammock stands to use it indoors.
I didn't have any problems adjusting to the futon; that's what I sleep on most of the time today. I'm also pretty sure I'd have no problems with a japanese style roll up beds either (it's basically like a futon anyway).
Hammocking, though, took a bit longer. I really wanted to make it work too. To make a long story short, my initial hammock was too short and now I do have a hammock I can sleep soundly in (which I do every now and then).
I was also initially interested on trying to train myself to sleep on a flat floor... but, ummm, that did not go well and I've never returned to trying. Maybe...
It took a couple weeks before I fully adjusted. One nice thing is that when I went camping or on a three month bike trip, I had my every-night bed with me! It felt so luxurious!
I loved it, and if I was single, I'd still be sleeping in a hammock every night.
I have acid reflux so I stack up pillows but sometime I roll over flat on my stomach and barf (yeah nice right!). But in the morning my hands are asleep probably due to my neck at a bad angle.
I'd like to try a hammock but the attachments for the ends is the biggest problem.
I've been sleeping on the floor for over two years now. At this point, I prefer it to sleeping in a bed. I started out by creating a "mattress" made of several layers of blankets. Now, though, I just put a sheet on my low-pile carpet and that's all I sleep on. I also use a relatively flat/thin pillow.
I went to a big-name department store just last week and bought a mattress. For the first time, I chose a "memory foam" mattress because I liked how it felt in the store. (Thought the traditional spring mattress felt more familiar and "right," there's something about the foam that was nice.)
When the giant delivery truck arrived three days later, there was the usual box spring, which I guess is what necessitated the truck, but then the delivery guys brought in a small box the size of a chair and that's what contained the shrunken mattress.
I asked what happens to the mattress if I decide that memory foam isn't for me after all, and they said it depends on the brand. Some go to charity, some go to an exporter for resale overseas, and some get shredded and made into new mattresses.
So those in need of mattresses don't get them and more likely to go to landfill... regardless of condition.
Are used mattresses really that risky? Are charities themselves not able to make a reasonable judgement call on what they accept?
I recently needed to get rid of a mattress set, and looked online. There are dozens of pages claiming that $Charity_X won't take mattresses, and dozens more claiming it will.
That's the problem with the internet - it's sometimes not specific enough. Due to local laws, the charity in question doesn't take mattresses. Fortunately, in mine it does as long as there are no stains and they're in pretty good shape. It gets the mattresses fumigated and uses them in its homeless shelters and battered women's shelters.
Edit: I suspect the charities that won't take mattresses are ones that run primarily on resale revenue, and not those that run their own housing.
FWIW, I bought an IKEA foam mattress + memory foam topper for about 1/3rd of what the Purple cost and it's been very comfortable for a few years now.
Decided to return it.
Surprisingly amazon.ca doesnt offer large item pickup like USA, and expected to return a king size expanded 10" thick foam mattress to the local post office.
I called them asking wtf, how am I supposed to return it.
They gave a me refund, and told me donate destroy it myself or even just keep it.
I decided to keep it
What I mean it’s more eco friendly to have big batch shipments to stores than individual small packages sent by post.
A normal physical store is usually more environmentally friendly than online shopping.
(Two day often involves air freight instead of trucks)
It's nice working with them because I know the equipment will most likely find a home.
That'd be risky now.
Made it even harder to get rid of it.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/unintended-perk-of-the-online-m...
Ashley: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0777K9RGX
Vibe: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074NDQ143
PrimaSleep: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075T6BNC2
Anyone here have any suggestions?
I've had several friends go out and buy it after a night on mine. I've had it for ~3 years and haven't noticed any degradation. After trying much more expensive (and heavily advertised) ones other people own, I can't really tell the difference.
It's my guest room mattress but I do sleep in the guest room occasionally, and when I do I sleep better than my normal mattress. That said, the edge support isn't great. Being close to the edge makes it feel almost like you're at a slight slope. Still, no regrets for $250.
Edit: I'm 6ft / 165 lb. It's possible that it would be less supportive for heavier weights.
While there might be better solutions for all of those things, if these materials are going to end up in the landfill and can be provided for almost no cost, it seems like a waste to not utilize the resource.
"The mattresses these criminals can’t resell, they fly-tip – Circom has had mattresses dumped outside its warehouse – or dump in landfill. In some cases, fraudsters have been known to rent a shed from an unsuspecting landlord, fill it to the brim with mattresses – and scarper. “There are loads of fake companies out there filling up sheds,” agrees Ray Bagnall, of Matt UK, another mattress recycler. “Dumping them on farms in Sussex or Essex.” He was recently called to clear out a shed full of thousands of mattresses in Snowdonia."
It would be nice to think that a vendor making low environmental impact mattresses would effectively disrupt the market, but it just doesn't seem likely.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/12/mattress...
This means you can only get a feel for the softness/hardness but not breathability (due to the packaging). On the other hand, it means prices are sane.
Personally, I prefer this system to the US one, where the ethical purchasers subsidize the unethical purchasers and unethical, greedy sellers. YMMV.
With something like a 120 day no-questions asked, no risk return I think they are more relying on you getting used to it in that amount of time. And huge markup means they can eat quite a few too, I suppose.
At that point, you'll only be able to buy online, and they won't need to offer returns. You have no choice but to have something delivered, or go without a mattress (my personal preference).
(I'm waiting for someone to invent & sell some sort of sleeping pod that provides a perfect environment, and keeps me in ideal position for the maximum sleep benefit)
You can achieve very similar results with a more elaborate arrangement by going traditional Japanese style, check out tatami mats if curious.
In all seriousness though, these companies should make it easier to put their mattresses back in their box, especially if it means they could avoid something like this. I seem to recall my old air mattress could easily be deflated by running the pump in reverse, fitting in a tiny bag. Would it be too hard to have a re-compression pump that could be shipped back for a rebate with shipping included if you decide to keep the mattress? Re-compressing the mattresses would probably also make it easier to cram a bunch of them into some sort of extreme-temperature vault so any bedbugs or other pests could be exterminated before re-use.
https://sleepdelivered.com/bed-in-a-box-mattresses-packing/
This machine looks pretty elaborate -- not sure that you are going to get a consumer version.
The mattress market is a pure scam.
I'm sure the mattress markup is astronomical, and I'm sure most brands come from the same factories.
Don't think I'd buy a used mattress either though...
but even if you do acknowledge this, it's not nearly as bad to sleep in a "dirty" bed for a few nights as it would be to own one and use it every night.
The funny thing to me was the she stayed in high end hotels pretty exclusively who I think you can at least be taking a fairly aggressive kill-it-with-bleach approach to laundry. I wondered if there was a wallmart version aimed at people who stay in seedy motels where it would seem to be more practical.
That said, as someone who travels a lot, when I look at travelers' catalogs like Magellan at a lot of the safety, germ protection, etc. items, part of me thinks that people who buy all that stuff are probably better off just not traveling.
By description the thing she had was much smaller & more form fitting than above link. One of the "selling points" was how small it packed into carry-on, for example.
The thing with silk is it's pretty fragile but it's probably the thinnest/lightest material that you'd actually want next to your skin.
They are made to go into sleeping bags, and I love mine for that use case (less sweat and dirt in your down bag), but I have also used them in dirt cheap hostels.
In one seedy hotel in Italy several people in my party had a lot of bedbug bites, but I can't say for sure if it actually protected me. I expect I was probably just lucky that there were none in my room.
Still, it's a little over 100 grams (less than 4 ounces) and it makes dirty mattresses in shitty hostels bearable.
I really doubt a bed wrapped in some form of cloth is any worse.
Unless you live on mars you are most likely getting ten times more pollution/plastic from other areas then your foam mattress.
That said, whether latex, polyurethane, or whatever, with foam mattresses you're supposed to use a mattress protector to prevent sweat and accidents from soiling the foam. Alternatively or in addition to that, Sleep on Latex uses a wool topper, as I'm sure many other brands do. And then on top of that most people use sheets. I would think all of that covering would trap any particles so they can conveniently be washed out to sea with all the other microplastics from the laundry.
I'd like to see some high quality research on this using realistic test environments, or even monitoring in actual bedrooms. I don't know who is willing to fund that though.
What I like about IKEA is that you just walk in and self-serve yourself a mattress. No sales. No marketing. If you don't like it, at least it was cheap. So I'm giving them a recommend.
it's actually better than that. you can return it any time in the first year of ownership, provided you kept the receipt.
In all three of those countries, Ikea sells mattresses in the regular local sizes. I recall that, maybe 20 years ago, Ikea in the UK only sold beds and mattresses in their native (Swedish? Euro?) sizes. But, in the last few years, I've bought both beds and mattresses from Ikea that are standard UK and standard US sizes.
Of course, it's always good to double check the actual measurements of your old/new mattress before pulling the trigger.
There's a great "Adam Ruins Everything" episode about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZOKfCial4
FWIW, I absolutely love my mattress in a box and the buying process was painless.
Don't be fooled if you thought the traditional mattress buying experience was sleazy (similar to a car buying experience), the mattress in a box online dark patterns take sleaze to a whole other level.
I have to say my experience was very good in that regard, possibly because I went with the most respected brand in my country (Canada) and the industry is much less crowded/competitive here.
Having said that, I bought the mattress over 2 years ago now so maybe things have changed. I hate dark patterns with a fiery passion.
There's an old Dutch saying "in de aap gelogeerd zijn". It means you got got scammed / got tricked / are in trouble. Literally, it means you "stayed at the ape".
As the story goes, the original meaning is that there was a hotel in Amsterdam (at Zeedijk 1) which was called "'t Aepjen" (old Dutch for "the ape"), where you stayed. Because Dutch East India Company (VOC) seamen couldn't pay their bills they paid with an ape. So if someone who was scratching themselves, the question was raised: "did you stay in 't Aepjen" (or in Dutch "ben je in de aap gelogeerd?").
Another version is that it was a pub (the oldest one in Amsterdam) where drunks met, and recruiters took advantage of this to get people to sign contracts (to subscribe for VOC).