Ask HN: How do you handle toxic coworkers?

If you have to ask, it's usually best not to confront them directly. People who act this way are ready, even eager to get into a fight. Sort of like fighting a bigger person, you want to disarm them.

A standard tactic is to be genuinely nice to them. You don't have to like them, but being polite makes them look worse when they are not. You can even be generous to them. This might actually give you some insight to why he acts that way. I've had issues with some coworkers who insecure in a job they badly needed, or some who have a grudge against someone else in the team for a good reason.

If you do fight back, make sure you can land a solid hit. Argue when you're clear that you're right, and make them explain where they think you're wrong. A solid hit will discourage them next time.

The trick with office politics is that you also need more people on your side. Be friends with the people he's picking on. It sounds like you're isolated. Wolves avoid herds.

If all else fails, learn to be unbothered like your managers have. Sometimes you have to treat them like children, which is to smile and nod as they tantrum. Sometimes you treat them like an environmental hazard, like a puddle of urine in the bathroom where it's not your job to clean after.

That's excellent advice.

Here's less reasonable advice that I've also found works well: bait toxic people into bad behavior.

Figure out what gets the biggest response out of them while looking super reasonable yourself. Try to get them fired up as much as possible so they're annoying everyone, especially their manager, and not just you. The more people angry with the toxic person, the shorter their lifespan.

Give them enough rope to hang themselves.

Trolling is a art.

I'd much rather prefer working with a bully instead of someone who is trying to trick an alleged bully into destructive behavior, personally

I agree with you. I mean, anon9001's approach could work... but it would make me have to become a manipulative jerk myself. Since the reason the toxic coworker is a problem is because of what they do to my mental health, this proposed cure looks as bad as the disease.

I think anon is trolling us

This is toxic behavior.

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

Appeasement only works if they're acting in good faith. If they're actually intending to bully, trying to appease them is just handing over more power.

Friendliness is not necessarily appeasement.

Many bullies bully as a way of taking control. They tend to pick easy targets that won't have consequences. Normally it's backed with some moral shield, which is why bullies tend to pick on anti-vax, vegans, animal haters, people who say dumb things on social media, people who store passwords in plaintext, tyrants, people with messy code.

A bully will pick on an unpopular manager, but not a well-liked one. But they'll only do this if they believe they'd be backed.

The trick is to be nice as a way to show that you don't fear them. Don't give them your lunch, but sharing a slice of fruit is fair. It's also very difficult for them to bully someone who is well-liked.

Appeasement might reinforce that you are an easy, no-consequences target. Forced niceness is just as bad. But something like thanking them for correcting you, or for finishing a task, that's fine.

I agree with this.

I've read an article that toxic coworkers actually do affect performance so I know this is hard.

But, in my experience, I wasn't exactly NICE but I was genuinely trying to be helpful, and sensitive to whatever the team needs. In the end, all I got was respect not only from him but from the team, which is the only thing I need.

This happens on pretty much any project. Dealing with it constructively is a key skill to have. The reality is that you are not going to be best pals with everyone and that should not stop you from having a functional working relationship with people around you.

What helps is not arguing via tools/email/chat. Just don't go there. It's a waste of time and just adds fuel to the flames. Lots of techies have trouble communicating effectively and keyboards generally don't improve things. Just because somebody is being immature doesn't mean they mean you have to take it personally. Escalating to your boss/calling them out in public is a last resort. Your boss will be annoyed that he/she has to be the grown up in the room instead of you.

Instead try to de-escalate and just walk over to the person and ask them to clarify and have a friendly chat about whatever it is that's bothering them and why that's bothering them and try to be constructive. "OK, you think this PR is not ready yet. How do I fix it?". You'd be surprised how often a friendly, informal chat can clear the air. Maybe you still won't agree with them 100%, that's fine. If so, ask yourself what it's worth to you to continue to argue or to simply do things their way.

Depends on his position relative to yours. If he's the reviewer, only leaving thumbs down on a PR means that he's not doing his job properly. If he isn't the reviewer, you can just ignore him. When he tells you that your decisions don't make sense - if it's something that you're discussing, consider that he might be right and get in more depth on why your decisions might not make sense, especially if this person is more senior. If it's just a peer who's throwing around negative one-liners - just ignore him. If it's someone that you're supposed to learn from / be managed by - then they suck at their job.

Either way, don't quit because of this. It's far from what I would label "toxic" and it's likely that you'll meet people like this in most places so you're better off learning how to handle them early on.

Did you try talking to this person? Did you try having a personal & private chat with them? Are they aware of the impact of their behavior on the environment and their colleagues?

If no, then how about you try talking to them, making them aware of the impact of their behavior on you? You could go like:

"Hey, I've been meaning to talk to you for a while but I didn't know how to put it best, I'd appreciate it if you listen to me until the end, I have observed <list non-judgemental observations> and I personally think of them as <list impact it had on you>, I'd appreciate it if you could express your ideas/talk to me/write me in a way that is more productive and constructive. I don't want our interactions to always end up being negative and I am actually looking forward to discussing a lot of your ideas in the future. What do you think?"

EDIT: formatting

Ive been in this kind of situation and I regret not doing more to rectify it before quitting. I’d say 50% chance quitting is the only way to resolve this and 50% something can be done. But getting something done might require some finess, and understanding what your bosses care about and framing it in that regard. For example if they care about deadlines I’m sure you can argue this is slowing the team down. But nepotism and politics rule some places and it may be tough to get a change, as an ideal org would have spotted this and not allowed it to happen. But if you complain and other people do then something might happen.

Toxic people at work always exist as part of the overall environment. The environment tolerates them. Judge the environment. I'd be asking myself why I'm in that environment and what I hope to achieve. If you're feeling this way now, how will you feel in six months time? Will you still feel like tolerating rush hour traffic to get to that workplace? For how long?

Not all jobs can be swapped out easily. Your situation matters. You may have to stay in that environment for whatever reason. Know your reason and the boundaries thereof. Be clear to yourself. Decide on what would cause you to exit and when. Be explicit in your reasons and why. You might have to remind yourself every day.

Maybe this environment isn't toxic or the situation isn't so bad. Get legal counsel anyway in terms of a bullying case. You may not have an actual bully in play right now but preparation for such might help. Even if you don't go the legal route, keep a journal, notes etc. If the manager is turning a blind eye to the situation that definitely isn’t good either.

"tells people that decisions they've made "don't make sense" or are "weird""

Just thinking about this, this guy is so dumb that he cannot understand what others are saying. Think like that.

One thing what I see is that people spill shit all over the place are just people who are being filling & drowned in shit. What is you see is just the after effect of shit drowning him.

Why get excited by a "thumps up" & feel bad by a "thumps down"? Someone appreciating or disapproving is just based on their perception. Its not the final judgement. There are many variable factors effecting a person. Just because some shit happened to someone and that person just vented on you. Why ruin your day based on that? Let it go. Be like a lotus, surrounded by shit but no shit sticked on the lotus.

FYI: I know I haven't conveyed myself in the best way possible, but I am doing my best (this makes perfect sense in my head). Well, I dont have "the best of words - everyone knows it". hehe.

If he is making you want to quit then you're giving him too much power over you. Ignore him and focus on what is expected from you and don't expect the workplace to be heaven on earth.

Once I was in this situation except there was a group of senior devs who acted like this. There were a lot of junior devs who were scared of these old gaurds. Everyone thought these people were untouchable.

During my one on one with my manager, I mentioned toxic environment without naming names. My manager told me that management was aware of them but was not able to do anything since they never really crossed line and no one ever filed any complaints. He said if enough developers complaint then they can take action even without bullies crossing actual line.

Of course, I didn't want to rally anyone to file complaints. But my manager told me they were not untouchable. So I started holding my ground and eventually bullies left me alone.

Is it possible to deliver the feedback to your manager and then ask to reduce interaction? (e.g. avoid working on the same projects, etc).

That's how I'd try to approach it if the person seems like they can't be reasoned with.

If the person seems like they can be reasoned with, then I'll just go have a conversation with them and give them the feedback directly. If that fails, then I'd fall back to trying to distance myself from the impact as much as possible while delivering the feedback to people that can potentially help make the situation better.

In my experience this usually boils down to different opinions on design decisions or the best way to implement a feature. One way to mitigate is to hold a design review where you get their sign off before the PR. Outline the basic strategy and pseudo-code. Document the functional interfaces etc...

The other thing to do is to ask for specific feedback to get to the root cause of the disagreement. I try to disarm them by agreeing that the code "smells" but it was the best you could do given the constraints. Does this developer "own" the code (is it their baby) or product you are working on? Ask what they would do... you can't mind read after all.

If you've built group consensus first then the negative reviewer has less room to maneuver as well.

Next consider proposing that the group create a code review protocol. This is similar to a coding style convention. Try to get consensus and sign off.

Lastly, check out the 5 secrets to effective communication, they really work. It's takes a lot of practice though.

https://feelinggood.com/2016/12/12/014-the-five-secrets-of-e...

First, I’m sorry you’ve found yourself in this situation. The good news is that you are going to learn some new skills and grow from this challenge.

I’d try to respond to PR comments/ talk or slack directly with the person and ask them to elaborate whenever they leave these negative ambiguous comments. You can even preface it with some humility - “I’m struggling to understand your point, could you restate this in another way for me?” You can keep going down this, and if they are just being catty, disrespectful, etc, you can potentially ask other developers to way in with their opinions, to help come to some consensus.

As for the mocking regarding production going down, I’d counter if possible in the thread acknowledging that even the most experienced developers write bugs, and this speaks to a system problem, not an individual developers fault. I’d try to remove blame from the individual.

Finally, I’d recommend trying if at all possible to get a little distance from the situation, whatever the comment is, etc that is bothering you. By that I mean trying to not let it get under your skin by focusing on your task at hand despite the negativity (be extra positive instead), maintaining identity outside of work and allowing yourself some self confidence in your skills and yourself.

Remember: a) this person might be or act like an asshole (maybe they are just really insecure? Who knows? Doesn’t matter?) b) management is complicit c) you maybe able to change behavior but may not d) you may not be able to control your understandable and appropriate emotional response to the person now, but if you practice mindfulness (pausing and keeping perspective), you maybe able to mediate your response and feel better about the situation.

Good luck! I’m feeling for ya!

You are just asking for it.

q: “I’m struggling to understand your point, could you restate this in another way for me?”

a: 'Your self declared lack of understanding coding standards and basic principles explains "quality" of code you keep submitting'

"You misunderstand. I'm struggling to understand your point because you've made it in a way that focuses more on challenging my intelligence than making yours known."

and if he retorts that one in the same way just key his car or something.

Yeah, or let him break down the metaphysics of quality for you - what does it mean to be high quality and why. And where in your coding standards or quality management system, are these statements backed up?

Lol this isn’t downton abbey - this is an incredibly weak response and you will come off looking weak and unhinged. Just be straight with the man. You’re being an asshole and I’m sick of it.

I'd look unhinged keying someone's car because they did a thumbs down emoji on my pull request? Please, do tell me more. :P

Word it in whatever way you want, that was just an off the top of my head example.

The most helpful framework for approaching bad parts of a social system is to build similar structures for working with a bad code system.

The strangle method for dealing with a legacy code base can work for social situations. Create an overarching social structure, with help from other co-workers, where the toxic person has their own bubble of influence, make sure the structure is secure, and then slowly reduce the size of the bubble.

An overarching social structure looks like normalized communication channels (one communication channel as opposed to several, scheduled meetings instead of one-offs so everyone is invited), clear lines of responsibility, and a steady escalation chain. Formal review processes in particular, as long as they don't grow too much cruft, is the easiest way forwards to start shrinking the bad-actor-bubble.

Coincidentally, this idea can be used for bad purposes, and is often how programmers can get strangled (so to speak) within their own organization.

Tell your manager. Wait four weeks for effect. You may ask for progress reports if there is no improvement. Leave.

> Tell your manager. Wait four weeks for effect. You may ask for progress reports if there is no improvement. Leave.

That's a fine plan, but a simpler one is just to leave. It's exceedingly rare that someone in a toxic work environment speaks with their manager and then everything becomes okay.

This is the best option really, it's the manager's job to correct behavior and there are lots of jobs out there where you don't have to deal with that.

Best thing you can do with toxic people is pretend they don't exist. Instant relief and they are defanged most of the time. They have to escalate poor behavior to get the attention they crave and then they get to be too much for superiors.

I would just ignore him. And maybe everytime he leaves thumb-down I would leave a thumb-up. Every time he leaves a negative comment I would leave a thumb-down on that :)

But in general I would just ignore him....

As far as toxic work behaviors go this doesn’t seem all that bad. You both are working towards the same goal. The best way to fix this is to focus the discussion around achieving that goal.

Personally, it would take a lot of money for me to put up with that so I would approach it as if I had nothing to lose.

I'm not sure what kind of financial situation you're in so this might not be the best advice.

If you haven't already given management a chance to fix it themselves, then tell them to deal with it or you're gone. The cost for management to fix it is a lot cheaper than hiring a new person.

What do they really have to do? All it takes is them to tell the person to just stop it.

Talk to other co-workers you trust about how you feel about the guy. If you find 3-4 people who feel like you feel, just arrange to go together to your manager, and ask that this person be fired (don’t settle for less). If you’re ready to quit over this, it doesn’t matter if the process backfires. But if the process doesn’t work, go to the boss of your boss and HR.

A toxic work environment is very detrimental to productivity so your hierarchy should take this very seriously.

The "toxic" person sounds like someone who needs coaching on how to interact with folks. Your immediate reaction is to insist on their termination. You may want to reflect on that.

My view is that he needs coaching for his next job. I think that the relationship would turn sour if the manager hints that people complained about the person’s behavior.

I know of a dozen counter examples where behavior has been addressed and improved. Several who then went on to be highly valuable to the org. Some people are illequiped to incorporate feedback and improve, and those will have to seek employment elsewhere. It seems an odd choice to me to not give someone who is already within the org a chance to improve and to prefer bringing in an unknown new person to replace them. This case did not come across (to me at least) as something unfixable. This is not a dangerous person, this is a person with communication issues.

The behaviour as described doesn't sound toxic unless they're using it to bully and are persisting after having discussed it. Your communication styles don't match and you need to handle it like any other inter-personal problem: talk to them about it. If you don't feel up to doing it 1 on 1 then ask your manager to help. If you've done all that then I'd say there's a problem and you need to escalate your response.

My advice would be if you discuss this with either the individual or another employee, I think it's important to talk about the behaviors and results of the behaviors that are of concern and not get to stuck on attacking the person. Sometimes people are just aware of how their actions are affecting the environment around them. Sometimes a honest frank conversation is all it takes. Only sometimes though...

If he's been there for a while and management is comfortable with him, I would just try to stay on his good side, kill him with kindness, he's probably the type just looking for a fight, I'd stay out of his cross hairs if he has the ability to wipe you out/make your work life less than tolerable.

Steer clear and look for another opportunity.

This is a phenomenal read for dealing with toxic people in the workforce and all areas of life. Taming Toxic People, By David Gillespie

Phttps://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781760555047/

In my experience, I only had to remember that they are humans and what's normal to them might not be normal to me.

I also practiced putting myself into their shoes. I realized they might be struggling and stressed and tired, too. I know this doesn't justify their behavior but sometimes being understanding is the best way. When my toxic coworker actually went on a 2-week vacation with no one bothering him, only with his family, he came back so refreshed and positive that it was scarier than him being grumpy and critical all the time in the previous months.