End torture and medical neglect of Julian Assange
thelancet.com
thelancet.com
Most of the health issues in question here arose when he was not in custody, but rather in self-imposed exile in the embassy. He could've walked out at any point and been treated, but that would've meant accepting the consequences for the laws he'd broken.
> On Nov 22, 2019, we, a group of more than 60 medical doctors, wrote to the UK Home Secretary to express our serious concerns about the physical and mental health of Julian Assange.[1]In our letter,[1] we documented a history of denial of access to health care and prolonged psychological torture.
I have no sympathy for this group's claims, because he was absolutely not denied medical care. He had an outstanding arrest warrant that was completely valid, and he chose to accept the consequences of skipping bail.
It's like a child running away from home because he didn't want to face prosecution for sexual assault, and then crying to the press that his parents aren't taking care of him while he's living in a flophouse.
[1] https://medium.com/@doctorseh4assange/concerns-of-medical-do...
You are entirely lacking in empathy of a journalist who's done amazing things for society and is a human being. It's a shame your feelings were hurt by whichever leak came out of WikiLeaks, but it's also a shame you feel the need to perpetuate smears and dehumanize someone who's only ever had your best interests at heart.
Also Assange was never facing prosecution for sexual assault. He was only wanted for questioning, blatantly for political purposes. Please stop spreading fake news
I'm more hurt about the radical transparency he espoused for others while keeping secrets like his relationship with the Trump campaign [1]. I wonder why Wikileaks didn't leak this truth[2]:
> President Trump offered to pardon Julian Assange if he agreed to cover up the involvement of Russia in hacking emails from the Democratic National Committee, which were later published by WikiLeaks, a London court was told on Wednesday.
[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-sec...
[2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-offered-assange-pardon-i...
The Mueller investigation found solid evidence of WL forwarding DNC docs collected by Russian intelligence, and at this point security researcher expert consensus is that Russia was the perp and WL the front.
Wikileaks biases also show in who they target and what they ignore. They've repeatedly downplayed leaks that are damaging to the Kremlin.
There is no evidence Wikileaks has ignored anything out of bias. Please stop spreading fake news.
You're not familiar with it, but it is there. Also CrowdStrike was not the only independent InfoSec firm involved in the analysis. The DCCC et al were also hacked by the GRU. SecureWorks & others attributed those other attacks. You should look into the real world information and expert opinion - you're spreading Flat Earther-class propaganda mostly fed to you by an intelligence agency.
Perhaps not what you mean, but he is actually a convicted criminal. He was a hacker in the late 80s. Was caught and eventually plead guilty in 1996, but avoided prison due to age and good behaviour.
The jails would have overflowed if those kids had been adults instead.
Self-inflicted harm doesn't elicit the same kind of moral outrage that true torture does. These efforts seem to me to be an attempt to exploit that moral outrage in order to benefit a particular person. If successful, the lack of clarity that introduces just creates extra doubt in cases of true torture that blunts the outrage.
Here are some similar cases:
After conducting a bunch of bombings, Eric Rudolph fled the FBI by living in a forest for years, feeding himself by gathering acorns and dumpster diving [1]. His choice to do that to himself is similar to what Assange did, and was not torture, either.
Rudolph's brother, bizarrely, decided to cut off his own hand with a saw to protest the FBI's treatment of his brother and its surveillance of his family [2]. If the FBI had done that to him, it'd have been a gruesome case of torture, but since he did it to himself, it's definitely not torture.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph
[2] http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US/9803/09/briefs.pm/rudolph.amputati...
Can you give details of the actual practices of torture alleged here? Scanning this and a few other things, the only details I'm seeing are complaints of how he was treated in the embassy (which IMHO were self-inflicted), and some nonspecific observations that he looks like he's in worse health now that he's actually gone to jail.
> I would still say that his asylum treatment was inhumane and violated his rights.
I can't see how that could be without essentially creating a lawless situation, where law enforcement is bizarrely tasked with supporting fugitives and assisting with their escape.
I don't think that's true. They don't say he was tortured, they say he displays the symptoms of psychological torture. From the OP:
On May 31, 2019, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Nils Melzer, reported on his May 9, 2019, visit to Assange in Belmarsh, accompanied by two medical experts: “Mr Assange showed all symptoms typical for prolonged exposure to psychological torture, including extreme stress, chronic anxiety and intense psychological trauma.”
While I don't doubt those are symptoms of torture, they also seem nonspecific. I'm sure spending 7 years on the lam as a fugitive could also lead to "extreme stress, chronic anxiety and intense psychological trauma," for instance. I think that's even more likely since the visit by the Special Rapporteur occurred about 1.5 months after Assange's arrest, and there were already reports that he was depressed and in poor health before his arrest.
To be tortured requires a torturer, and to say that Assange was tortured by the UK for his time at the embassy requires bizarre conclusions such as:
1. law enforcement is to support fugitives and assist with their escape rather than trying to arrest them, or that
2. torture is a normal and necessary activity of law enforcement (since chasing a fugitive is torture and law enforcement is supposed to chase fugitives).
Again, both of the above numbered statements are bizzare nonsense, but I think they're implicit in the belief that Assange was tortured by the UK for his stay in the embassy.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment_and_arrest_of_Julia...: "After Assange's asylum was revoked, the Ambassador of Ecuador to the UK invited the Metropolitan Police into the embassy on 11 April 2019. Following this invitation, Assange was arrested and taken to a central London police station."
Given that there was a large Assange thread yesterday (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22351183), and a large thread on the Assange/torture question a few weeks ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22201381), I don't think this letter contains significant-enough new information to support a solid HN discussion. This topic is divisive enough as it is, and in the absence of significant new information, threads tend to degrade even faster than usual.
TFA does not answer this question.
Assange spent 7 years in self-imposed exile in the embassy. Throughout this period of time, torture experts have determined that he is showing the psychological symptoms of a torture victim.
In April, he was imprisoned. Torture experts continued visiting him, and have continued observing that he was showing the psychological symptoms of a torture victim. Shockingly, neither prison, nor his conviction for skipping bail make him better.
No evidence that anything about the condition of his imprisonment constitutes torture has been provided. Instead, people point at him, and say that he has clearly been traumatized. That is true - but all evidence points to the trauma being inflicted during his self-imposed exile.
[1] https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doct...
[2] The sleight of hand, of course, is blaming his current imprisonment on medical problems that he picked up during his self-imposed exile.
Doctors have observed, reported, documented, and endorsed that he is being tortured. I don't know what else you could possibly want.
1. Prisoners in Belmarsh are routinely tortured.
2. Prisoners in Belmarsh are not routinely tortured, but Assange in particular is being singled out for a surprise helping of torture in Belmarsh.
Neither TFA, nor its sources provide any evidence for either of those two things. What they do provide is evidence for the much less incendiary, and less surprising claim of:
1. Assange has not gotten any better since his self-imposed exile.
> Doctors have observed, reported, documented, and endorsed that he is being tortured.
No, they haven't. If you disagree, please cite sources. Ones that don't do the bait-and-switch of pointing at the medical problems he acquired during his pre-incarceration living conditions, and using that to 'prove' the entirely unrelated claim that he is being tortured in Belmarsh.
I strongly doubt that such sources exist, because if they did, publications like TFA would directly, and unambiguously cite them, instead of dancing around the truth.
The source is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. It's linked in the very top of TFA. Sorry you don't like the truth and are yourself trying to dance around it
> The source is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.
I have read TFA, I have read its sources, and I see no evidence that points to him currently being tortured, as I have said three times in this thread. Is there a specific passage that you would like to highlight?
Also, Assange's health was in strong decline before he was released from the Embassy, which could be a factor: https://medium.com/@doctors4assange/concerns-of-medical-doct...
I'm not saying there isn't torture happening, just that there isn't much evidence to the claim that he's being tortured right now.
"Oh, it's only waterboarding, that's not real torture..."
Torture is torture.
IMO, at best we could dub his deterioration in the embassy as "self-inflicted", or more accurately institutional neglect on the part of the governments involved.
Extensive solitary confinement is criticized as a form psychological torture. If you're familiar with the US detention system, the treatment of Assange might seem pretty commonplace, the international community generally considers this a form of torture.
Then, two, it's Ecuador's fault that he's confined to a few rooms, can't exercise, can't get sunlight, etc. I mean, doesn't their embassy have windows somewhere?
Everyone tries to make this Britain's fault somehow. I can't see it.
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
Emphasis mine. His terrible mental health condition is not under dispute. But I am disputing the use of the word torture, as opposed to 'symptoms typical for'.
Torture (noun): the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something.
While he was in the embassy he was fugitive and definitely under duress to turn himself in, no doubt. What rights and privileges is someone entitled to as a fugitive in comparison to their rights and privileges once in custody? My bias is anti Assange, for some common reasons some people are anti, I try to keep an open mind and be a compassionate person and feel compassion for his terrible mental health circumstances, yet articles like this, I read it with a pile of skepticism and just feels weak, lacking in evidence, overstating things and drawing inferences I think are poorly supported.
Proven you say?
Things asylum seekers typically say: "If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ case"
According to him all it ended up doing was stifling innovation and rewarding mediocre lifers over the high performing employees.