"This community is available in the app"
reddit.com
reddit.com
Okay, I know they're chasing one of two things here: a higher level of revenue from the advertising they can embed in the app, or some app-download metric that can be converted somehow somewhere to more money.
But for users like me, they have a couple of significant problems. First, that if I were at all motivated to use their stupid app in the first place, I would've already done, which means that these attempts to force the issue mean they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, and ohwow that looks bad.
And two, I don't trust them. There is absolutely no way I am ever going to give them that level of access to my device just so I can browse their website. And every step of their behavior here only reinforces my decision. They aren't tempting me into using their app with irresistible new features that really can't be provided by a regular ol' mobile website. Instead, they're showing me just what kind of behavior I should expect from their app by playing these dirty little games.
On the plus side, all this has caused my Reddit time to fall off a cliff and I'm cruising through books at double last year's rate now.
I don't trust them on this remotely either, but given the official app is hot garbage then that would mean a signifcant net reduction of time on the service from me, just like it did on Twitter.
Btw, I use RedReader or Slide for browsing reddit on mobile. Especially RedReader is fast, and looks simple in AMOLED black theme. Both are open source, though they both miss few features.
What Reddit needs is a very creative UX solution. Something of value that gets presented in the app but is not inthe mobile-web version delivered via browser.
Some app interaction rather than some extra content. Something interactive that is exclusive to the mobile app. Not something big interaction wise but just enough value that people start using the mobile app over mobile web via browser.
thanks for user that posted the question as I have a UX interview with a Chicago startup that is somewhat facing this problem and several other UX problems around driving their mobile app use upwards. The question help me formulate how to solve it.
If you’re thinking UX, the question should be how the user benefits. There are some potential answers like better performance, offline support, etc. which generally come back to how badly their current SPA developers failed at networking and error handling but that’s probably just restating that they should take the web UI seriously rather than ignoring it in the hopes that people will install the app.
This is just bias on your part.
Surveillance surplus.
You're right though, from a user trust perspective it's pretty horrendous. Regardless of whether that was measurable or not, there are things that are just so infuriating to users that you shouldn't do them. I'd argue the cost in terms of internal morale and employees' trust that we're doing the right thing for our users, and their sense of pride in their work, way more than offset any metrics gains.
I think Facebook is experiencing a similar thing. A frustrating amount of my network has quit, which makes planning events more difficult (and is frustrating). The difference for Facebook is that they have enough money to just buy wherever people move to. Reddit doesn’t have that.
At this point I think a lot of people are actively looking for (and probably finding) replacements. I’m actually surprised Reddit still makes their public api so easily available without any keys. I wonder how long until somebody just scrapes the content and uses that to help get over the network problem and start a competitor.
Facebook is designed for, and in fact is designed to prey on, the computer illiterate.
Particularly ads. I don't think it's necessarily computer illiteracy specifically to blame here, though it's certainly a factor. The elderly are also targeted by telephone scammers, presumably because they tend to be more trusting/naive. Even snail-mail becomes an issue for some old folks; my grandmother has trouble differentiating junk mail from legitimate mail, it can sometimes take her several minutes to realize she can throw away a junkmail flier.
I have the deepest contempt for the people who work in these sort of industries. They must know what they're doing.
Scam isn’t even the right word. More like “scheme”. Everything from anti-aging pills to travel clubs to worse. Between this garbage and the fake news nonsense Facebook is an absolute disease at this point.
Honestly, someone should start a campaign to ask Mark Zuckerberg to just delete it. Cash out and delete it for the good of humanity.
Your best bet about shutting down Facebook is government action or useds leaving Facebook. Either of those seems almost impossible however, and keep in mind Facebook has money to purchase its competitors if useds start moving to them.
The market will do the rest. Facebook doesn’t want to be fined so will force all ads to be reviewed & approved manually. This costs money so in turn the price of the ads will go up. Legitimate brands will still be able to afford it, the rest will disappear. Overall there would be less “noise” in the ads compared to the “signal” (the very few good ads).
Where are you going to go? Voat?
They can be as horrible to their users as they want. As long as they have cat pictures on the front page, nobody cares enough to change anything.
I think we're all getting exactly what is deserved by collectively allowing a monopoly to form. (I'm not suggesting there should be legal action. I'm saying, by the laws of exponential curves and popularity, monopolies naturally form, and this is the result.)
But I guess that replies aren't implemented :(
> Snew is an open-source parody client for reddit.
> It is a client forked from the reddit source code that runs entirely in your browser.
> Snew attempts to undo reddit's pervasive censorship
> Content is pulled directly from the reddit api and pushshift.io
0) https://snew.notabug.io/r/all/
1) https://snew.notabug.io/r/mobileweb/comments/f2afvz/this_com...
Interesting. Seems active too.
There's also tildes: https://tildes.net/ (I tried googling them and they're nowhere to be found. Ironically /r/tildes popped up before the actual site did.)
And lobsters: https://lobste.rs/
It just gives you ~everything that got posted to Reddit.
Which is very useful for research purposes. And it fixes another Reddit defect, wherein it won't display full comment history, unless you're logged in.
Not every network has to be a bastion of free speech, but being closed minded and erasing entire discussions that they don't like is a great way to build an echo chamber.
I wish a remember more of the context, but I had bookmarked this page[0] because it was an interesting discussion on this matter. As you can see, it's been nuked.
0: https://tildes.net/~tildes/ct2/no_invite_links_available_hav...
I like the HN approach, generally. Even people who have gotten themselves shadowbanned can still post, and interesting comments can be vouched. And there's redemption with consistent evidence of constructive posting.
Ideally, though, I like distributed systems, where content is persistent and irrevocable. But with multiple portals, each with its own standards, and portal-specific moderation. And additionally, giving users the tools to filter, based on posters, topics, keywords, time, etc.
Anyway, about the URL, archive.org has no snapshots, and just tells me that it's available. But perhaps someone has archived it, and will post a link.
notabug.io is a decentralized Reddit alternative that uses open source html/css from Reddit but whole new backend.
Snew.notabug.io is an anti censorship Reddit client that also uses open source html/css from Reddit but uses Reddit’s APIs and pushshift.io"
- go1dfish (admin of both)
https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/qs5/saidit_is_now_the_s...
Reddit is the Nth most popular site in the world. (I'm not exactly sure what N is, but it's pretty small.) Whatever the competition is, it hardly registers on the radar.
If they wouldn't use these practices I would probably spend a significant amount of time on their site. But as it is now, I feel reluctant to visit reddit unless I am searching for a solution to a specific problem.
I am not even sure if users like me who stay away even show up in any of the metrics they use to justify their current actions — how would they even messure it?
Myspace was the flavor of the month. Now it is facebook/imgur/snapchat. But before it was friendster, AIM, MSN, ICQ etc. Maybe next it will be Discord or Son Of Discord.
The wheel continues to turn. I have zero faith Reddit will command the market share it does today, in 2030.
Slashdot really only competes with a dozen or so subreddits, after all, not with reddit as a whole.
They just have a lot more investor money they need to show returns on this time.
Further, I don't know how big the original team was, but I doubt the majority of the founders are still there. It is, largely, approximately, under different management.
The oldest and most stable online communities seem to have the slowest-changing interfaces.
I think it will be an interesting case. Reddit seems more entrenched than Digg and the internet is different now. They obviously have metrics affirming their choices, so we’re probably in the minority with this mindset.
All kinds of shitty companies regularly force us to accept bullshit like this and Im afraid this is now status quo. It seems younger people generally accept it because the need for content is stronger than that of due diligence, a naive mistake en masse.
Yeah, one thing is that Reddit the company is getting shady, but the community has gotten rather toxic the last few years. I closed my account two years ago, roughly, because the community started be rather exclusive. If you're not an overly political correct leftish American city dweller you're opinions aren't welcome. There are Reddit approved opinions, any deviation from these opinions will result in you having a bad time.
I'm honestly surprised that the NSFW subreddit haven't been killed off yet, but I suppose Reddit see a business opportunity in all the cam-girls hanging around.
Think about Facebook, Twitter, Quora and now Reddit.
I am not saying the company is doing anything _bad_ per se. A company has to be profitable, otherwise it would die. So, it seems to me that for a SNS to stay "good", it cannot be backed by a for profit company.
I don't know how that would work. Maybe things like WT.Social and Mastodon are the answer.
In fact other than maybe 5 or less apps, I only use a browser.
For a website that I spend ungodly amounts of time in, I hate that it's this way.
But even if you think Reddit works better in a native app for you, that's by design. Reddit is making the web experience shitty on purpose, to drive users to their app.
And a dedicated app is able to handle certain links better than native browsers, like RES on desktop. One example would be to directly open the image instead of Imgur page.
Also if we're talking about Android, I don't feel webview is too much different from a native browser now; all the histories, auto-fills are shared with my main browser (Chrome). Of course, it is just my PERSONAL use case.
There's nothing intrinsic about Reddit that makes it worthy of a dedicated mobile app.
https://www.reddit.com/.compact
is absolutely the best view on mobile.
Most people install the app, and all the tracking and data collection and geolocation that comes with it. Soon, almost all mass media will be consumed this way. This is just the latest installment of the mounting assault on the free and open web.
Mark my words: the web is in danger.
In a way yes.
In another way you can always trust people to be stupid and greedy and poison the commons: Every day you'll see more and more stories about apps that get taken over by/sold to malicious actors that then infect your device with the latest virus/ads/ransomware.
People don't care if their private data is sold all over the world, that's clear by now, but people will care, cry and shout really loudly when they get infected by ransomware that holds their grandkids pictures hostage.
It will happen, and the vector will always be a rogue app. Welcome back to the web!
Is it? The protocols and the technologies are open and standardized. You're perfectly capable of registering a DNS name, hooking up a server to the network and starting a HTTP daemon. Big companies can't stop you from doing that.
"But nobody is doing that today! Too much hassle!", I hear you saying.
Ah! You have a point... but that's based on a bias. You're switching cause and effect. Why are billions able to post content on the Web? Because that's what big platforms allow them to do. There implementation simply has lowered the bar for a huge influx of non-technical people to start publishing content.
The trade-off these millions are making is giving up on their privacy, or having to endure the rules and weird quirks, towards those that own and operate the platforms that they are using.
Publishing content on the Web never was easy to begin with. Tim Berners-Lee originally invented HTTP because he simply wanted to connect researchers and share scientific knowledge. Most of the tools that power the Web were never designed for end users. They are designed for robustness, performance, security and so on.
The only merit of Zuckerberg and Jack is that they used to tools in such a way to abstract that complexity away for end users. Exactly like what Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did by providing windowing systems with a visual language that was easy to understand for end users.
Yelling "the Web is in danger" would be like yelling "computers are in danger" because billions of users never learned to use command line tools, don't know what a kernel is, let alone understand what a file system is.
The free and open Web was and always will be an affair of people who have an understanding of open, standardized technologies such as HTML, CSS, HTTP, URL's, TCP/IP and so on. You can't have one without the other, really. Freedom and openness are a function of the distribution of knowledge to implement and enforce them.
Now, the real problem, at this point, isn't technological. It's regulatory. The real problem is that these platforms don't have a proper paid offering for users who want to share and publish content. Because end users, like you and me, aren't the customer, they are the product for advertisers. And so consumer and - at this point - civil rights don't seem to apply to them. That's what really matters here.
But that problem is only a problem caused because those very same platforms allowed millions to enter this virtual world. Equally, expecting that anyone - including your grandparents - learns HTML and how to set up an Apache webserver, well, that might equally a bridge too far, no?
If ISP's decided to stop supporting open standards and switched to proprietary protocols to link computers, that's when you need to ask questions. And this has been tried... and failed already in a different form some 30 to 40 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel
I also fear that with the increase in nationalism around the world, and cyber warfare becoming more serious, that even traditionally liberal governments will start exerting more control on their networks. Specifically, not just to protect strategic interests, but to restrict ideas. Particularly since foreign governments have begun to use social networks for propaganda purposes.
This has some negative consequences for their logged in users too. For example, many small shops and restaurants seem to use Instagram instead of a traditional website. I wonder if they are aware that plenty of people can’t see their menus etc?
I find Dribbble’s wall especially ironic. For the longest time it would be hard to get a Dribbble account - you had to know someone with an invite. And now they refuse to even tell you who designed which image unless you create an account. (Isn’t that rather problematic from a copyright perspective?)
Reddit has had something like $550M in funding, with the last round in December 2019. It’s been around for 15 years so it’s unlikely to become profitable at the desired levels but everyone involved has a strong incentive not to recognize that.
I will give up on reddit if they do the same.
Isn't visits a valid criteria? Why force a mobile app?
With a browser the user can install extensions and do things that benefit them, in an app you get exactly what the app owner gives you. If monetization is your only purpose, you would choose apps exclusively if your users are willing to accept it.
The most-used browsers, too, are agents of the company making them.
Alas, browsers are also apps.
Which of those things can the official Reddit app do currently?
If you're saying "the Reddit app will slowly change to do bad things" then say that and don't imply it already does those things.
To be clear, I'm not claiming it does those things, but are you claiming it does not? And will not or could not?
I think people are right not to trust Tencent with this kind of access.
iOS doesn't allow apps to read the user's phone number or scan local Wi-Fi access points. The only files sandboxed apps can read on iOS are ones created by the app, explicitly passed to the app, or made available by the user, which is also possible on the web.
The only thing mentioned that has the slightest bit of merit is being able to spam push notifications, and this is something that a) requires the user to grant permission, b) is easily disabled by the user if it's annoying, and c) explicitly forbidden by Apple:
> 4.5.3 Do not use Apple Services to spam, phish, or send unsolicited messages to customers, including Game Center, Push Notifications, etc. […]
> 4.5.4 Push Notifications must not be required for the app to function, and should not be used for advertising, promotions, or direct marketing purposes or to send sensitive personal or confidential information. Abuse of these services may result in revocation of your privileges.
People who use Brave use it for reasons other than access to a unique rendering engine. Many of those reasons apply to the iOS version as well.
Not making a case for Apple's decision here. I'd be happy if Gecko were available on iOS; there's no way I'd burn my battery like that, but competition is good.
But it's not as simple as "there's one browser on iOS" either, the rendering engine is just one part of what makes a browser unique and useful.
Looking at https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.reddit.fro..., scroll down and click the 'View Details' under Permissions. It shows that the app can read your contacts, network connections, approximate location, contents of your USB storage plus much more which would cover all of codedokode's points adequately I think? (I'm not sure of the annoying notifications, perhaps all apps can do that..)
The list in full:
This app has access to:
Photos/Media/Files
read the contents of your USB storage
modify or delete the contents of your USB storage
Location
approximate location (network-based)
Storage
read the contents of your USB storage
modify or delete the contents of your USB storage
Microphone
record audio
Camera
take pictures and videos
Contacts
find accounts on the device
Device & app history
read sensitive log data
Identity
add or remove accounts
find accounts on the device
Other
receive data from Internet
view network connections
prevent device from sleeping
run at startup
read Google service configuration
draw over other apps
read sync settings
full network access
create accounts and set passwords
use accounts on the device
toggle sync on and off
install shortcutsAlso if it has 100s of dialogs popping up users get a fatigue. They tend to say yes to everything and that's how default Android permissions are
Security model should be automated. Request only when needed
Can't see why it needs all permissions upfront. Apps keep nagging u until we provide all permissions.
90% of my reddit usage is posting amd reading text. 10% is photo related. So browser is better for me.
I don't need an app to have all access when I upload photos once a month
Microphone is granted along camera. Camera is needed if you want to upload photos.(I might be wrong about the microphone)
Storage is always necessary for apps that cache anything from the web.
That leaves contacts and location.
So you can disable contacts and location, but all your metadata including device and network information is read and probably transmitted. In most cases it's good enough as location information as well.
This is why users need control over the internal API layer of their phones so they can feed spoofed data to apps.
Perhaps this is the case on Android, but this is explicitly forbidden by Apple:
> (iv) Access Apps must respect the user’s permission settings and not attempt to manipulate, trick, or force people to consent to unnecessary data access. For example, apps that include the ability to post photos to a social network must not also require microphone access before allowing the user to upload photos. Where possible, provide alternative solutions for users who don’t grant consent. For example, if a user declines to share Location, offer the ability to manually enter an address.
https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#dat...
Reddit is not exempt from this, no one is.
Currently using this thing called 33mail. Temp-mail works most times too, but 33mail forwards me the emails so I can even use forgot password option. On a relevant note, there are few websites that provide temporary phone numbers if you're from US/Canada, or in contexts US/Canada temporary phone number helps.
If you were using it just to read answers, you can still do that with a tiny bit of effort and avoid logging in. Just put a ? at the end of the URL (it’s originally a parameter called “shared”, which would be added as ?shared=1). It will then assume you’re coming from a search engine link and let you in without the login popup.
I stopped using it when they started search cloaking and have never had cause to reconsider.
But it doesn't work for 2 consequitive requests
Luckily, Quora doesn't have quality content these days, like it used to back in the day when experts wrote answers
I still think I know how Reddit could make money, but it's possible they are too staid to get it. They may have also lost the plot politically, where a particular flavour of virtue is becoming a substitute for the growth and success they actually need to effect the change they want to.
The music business is and always was a celebrity and micro-celebrity factory, and Reddit (and their main magazine empire investor) could be that for content. Imagine a record label like Time Warner happened to own every indie bar in every little city where bands played, got first option on every group that came through the doors, and could measure audience reaction in real time.
That's what Reddit is, but for content.
This pressuring users to give up PII sounds like there is a sea change happening at the corporate/financial level where they've been given a limited runway and need to show some short term traction, "or else." I've mostly kicked my reddit habit, and their strategy really resembles something they'd do if they're hitting a negative inflection point.
I'm not a big application design junkey, but it's behavior like this that makes me appreciate the simplicity of hacker news. A few standard concepts implemented in their most basic form. No changes in the name of more user engagement.
I understand that Reddit and Instagram's primary motive is to make money, but these sorts of "features" remove me from their pool of potential customers.
I'd like to see a move towards a purely data based web where I get to choose how the data is displayed. I know a semantic web paired with a standard set of user interface components chosen by the user wouldn't be as profitable as the current internet, but I would prefer it.
For the curious, adblockers can get rid of the annoying pop-ups.
I use all of uBlock origin's annoyance filters and it works for me.
If you permablock it with the picker the scroller will break. They have something from the modal logic tied into the scrolling logic.
www.instagram.com##body:style(overflow-y:auto!important; max-height:none!important; width:auto!important; position:static!important;)And they don’t want customers who don’t earn them money, like all businesses.
But it continues to be popular. Arguably young people are stupid. I mean most people of my age use Instagram and I will have to.
I'm working on my own alternatives, but all I really want is a premium reddit like community that focuses on UX and gives some of my subscription back to the creators.
I think you'd still see sites drive engagement, even for paid offerings. Look at Netflix and autoplay.
You're almost asking for something like a media outlet that values the greater good over pretty much everything else.
With things like instagram and facebook, it's different - their objective is to get you as addicted to the platform as possible, collect as much data as they can, and use it as a platform to surface ads.
They simply have more drivers that are at odds with what's beneficial to the user.
And then I get hit with the his garbage???
Seriously, the assholes at reddit responsible for this shit should resign in shame and vow to never touch a computer for the next ten years.
I'm sure there is MUCH more revenue to be extracted from an app (with access to so much on-device data)
I guess, if the information on their site is truly worthy, then I'd buck for the Reddit Gold (Premium) [3]. Does anyone know if that works on the web, or you need the app?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit
[2] https://www.emarketer.com/content/reddit-to-cross-100-millio...
I've tried the apps - but nothing beats the browser for me. If they kill the mobile website, I'll just stop using Reddit.
OK sure, I'll download the app... But wait, now I can't use it without logging in... But I can't login because I use a long generated password... well crap, now finding that menu image I want is a huge chore. Why yelp, why.
Every site you visit you must...
- figure out how to disagree to ad tracking (Sometimes imposible if you want to use the site) - decline cookies - decline to receive their newsletter - Decline to download their app - decline to receive notifications.
It’s painful and ridiculous.
Hopefully, APIs won't be closed.
[0] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.quantumbadger.redreader/
On mobile, sometimes closing the tab and reopening works, sometimes changing networks works, and the most recent one I’ve seen is to request for the desktop site, which has worked consistently even though it makes reading a bit more difficult.
With iOS not allowing the user to set a default app, using a third party app like Apollo as an alternative to the browser isn’t convenient either. It’s either view/use the official reddit app or continue with the browser.
I wonder if browsing with the Apollo or another app (like Narwhal) also throws the same message and restricts reading on the platform.
in the app, i have one view, and if i ignore the app for an hour it reverts to the default state.
isn't it obvious which one i want? yes! it's the one that takes features away from me and makes me miserable!
https://old.reddit.com/r/mobileweb/comments/e7yivg/join_redd...
Previous discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19686972
The only way for a discussion platform to stay true to its users is if it does not rely on revenue from other sources.
I wrote a blog post about this a few days back (shameless plug): https://www.plebia.io/blogs/site/uDIkCFPp2b8+Online-Discussi...
A suggestion, though - if you really can't make the site work at least a little bit with javascript disabled, at least have a basic landing/about page display for js-less browsers. Simply put - give me a reason to consider unblocking your site, dangle the carrot in front of me.
- consider shorter url, instead of /forum/gamedev /p/gamedev or something so it can be referenced in text like on Reddit
- I never liked any dark theme so I hope It can be made light
- in submit form allow me to prefil link from url parameter and title too so that I can easily post from rss reader
- add rss feeds
- you can "please" them with push notifications
- you can save bandwidth by putting static assets / the framework in the app and only load content
Is the browser cache that unreliable? Especially when you can use localstorage or something fancier to hold a few megabytes of code.
Surely someone must ha e built something like this already?
OTOH , if reddit unravels we ll probably witness a lot of disparate forums springing up again, which may be good
At least until only Reddit's new design is allowed, and I stop using the site.
I just installed Boost for Reddit and it is pretty fast. But thanks for letting me know about i.reddit.com, I didn't even know that exists. The old Reddit is still the best on desktops, I hope they don't kill it.
Certainly it is marginal and can't offset the user/revenue loss from alienating users??
I'm sure there's someone reading these comments who is looking for a side project, and this may be interesting to them... let's help them out.
The thing that’s needed though is content, the problem that these spinoff Reddits have is that they seem to think catching the runoff is a good idea to build a community.
New reddit, whoever you may be, don’t populate yourselves with the communities that get banned from reddit.
Currently, moderators are selected with little input from the community members. Because mods produce the content policies of a community, members don't have the most effective tools to effect the policies of their communities (where they can spend a lot of time and effort).
Ideally, moderators would be selected by vote but that's a challenge of its own. I would still like to see more democratic forms of mod selection, it would also keep them accountable from abusing their power (arbitrary banning, censoring and/or taking bribes from corporations).
zzzzzzzzzzzz
If you disagree, please let me know and I'll take a look at them.
To elaborate on my comment, which I think is neither insubstantive nor flamebait: It's absurd to suggest that users are not to blame here. On one hand, they complain about it, but on the other hand, they obviously use the app, or else they wouldn't bother maintaining it. Being subject to all of this tracking nonsense is what within economics is known as a 'revealed preference'. In other words, it is the case that the users chose this future, or as the meme goes, this is the future you chose.
I comment here because I upvoted several of your comments on the Mike Godwin thread earlier today because I thought they were unfairly downvoted. But even in those cases, you probably could have prevented the downvotes if you'd spent a little more effort of making your case in the opening comment, rather than defending it in the followups.
Your point of view is appreciated, so please stick around despite the downvotes. But at the same time, please take the effort to post higher quality initial comments so that you avoid most of those downvotes.
It's supported behavior to downvote comments based on disagreement[0][1], so it seems like the system is working as it should.