Hacker News Reader

Comment by Cu3PO42 | Hacker News Reader

I must admit I always feel weird when I see numbers like that mentioned for software engineers. In Germany a more reasonable number with a few years of experience might be in the €50-55k ballpark.

Granted, the cost of living is significantly lower in most cities here than it is in the bay area, but still it just feels... weird.

Edit: Fixed a typo.

View on HN

I think Europe (and the UK) undervalue software engineers.

At least in the UK this seems like a cultural thing where management is high status/high value and engineers are low status/low value.

I think the US generally gets this right (at least in silicon valley), but it could partly be because the US has some extremely valuable software companies that operate on a global stage that aren't really present elsewhere.

Really great software engineers can generate insane value at a great company with a good business.

From the numbers I've seen, Zurich is the one exception that pays comparably to the Bay Area, NYC, and Seattle.

Unfortunately Zurich may also compare on cost of living. Maybe that's all there is to it, but I somehow doubt that.

Yeah, but it's better than say London which compares on cost of living but pays abysmally.

There's only really one place that can have these big tech companies, and that is the US. What technology companies of note do the UK have?

It's just stupid nonsense like "writing spreadsheets for the local government" and minor web development. In tech, it really is US vs. ROW

ARM, for example?

But let's assume for a second that the only relevant companies are US-based. A lot of them also hire in other countries and it is my understanding that compensation isn't what it is in the US either.

I think American companies generally do have a lot better comp in places like London compared to the non American software companies there.

I’m not 100% sure - I have less insight into this.

I can't speak to the job market in the UK, but in Germany there doesn't seem to be a great difference based on anecdotal evidence from friends. There's absolutely a chance this is incorrect as well, because discussing wages is still somewhat against societal norms here (which is stupid in my opinion).

ARM have offices all over the world and are owned by the Japanese. The European "tech industry" is and remains a joke.

American companies also have offices all over the world. For example, Google have several offices in Africa. This does however not mean that Ghana has a booming tech industry, it just means that sometimes you need domestic offices for minor regulatory reasons.

SoftBank only bought ARM in 2016, they are by origin very much from the UK and I don't think anyone is going to argue that ARM wasn't relevant before 2016.

DeepMind was also founded in the UK and later bought by Google. Their HQ remains in London.

DeepL, who are providing a much better translation product than Google or Microsoft by many accounts, are a German company.

Spotify, which I'm sure needs no explanation, is a Swedish company.

While it is certainly true that the US pays better, I think you need to re-evaluate your position that noone else is creating good or valuable products.

Two of these companies are British, and the other two are complete jokes. It is like talking about the 'Ukrainian software industry'. Sure, some of them have computers, but that does not a tech industry make.

You mean the kind of big companies that repeatedly break the law, engage in unethical behaviour, and put growth above all else? Yeah. Only the US has those. Congratulations.

Plenty of tech companies in Europe either way; you just don't know about them. Do you think Europe is some poor underdeveloped continent with uneducated people who can only "write spreadsheets?" What a patronizing comment.

You have to break eggs to make omelettes. The US is the only country in the world (perhaps excepting China) with any tech industry of value, just as it is the only country with any finance industry of value.

Europe has some companies with IT departments, some American companies with European offices, and some no-name consultancies (which are often US-owned). The indigenous European tech industry is a complete joke, since there is hardly any of it.

A normal programmer in Europe earns maybe $2-4k per month, or $24-48k per year. For context, the American poverty line for a family of four is $24.3k, so they are earning about $21/month above the poverty line.

A normal programmer in the USA earns maybe $100k per year, and up to $300-400k if they work at a big company. In Europe, the CEO of an ostensibly big company might earn $300-400k. It's an utter joke.

That I haven't heard of the alleged European tech companies just goes to show my point. DeepL, what the hell is that? Spotify is somewhat larger-scale web development, but still just a Mickey Mouse startup. The NYSE couldn't even get their flag right! The other two (relatively serious companies) are located in the UK, which is slated to leave the European Union soon.

Just so you know, salaries in Bangalore are comparable to that of SF if adjusted for Purchasing Power Parity. If you don't believe me, feel free to look up levels.fyi for both and match the conversions through: http://salaryconverter.nigelb.me/

That's because SV outsources their development work there, artificially inflating prices. In reality, India has a 'tech industry' in the same sense that Africa has an 'AI industry' - there is industry and it is vaguely related to AI, but tagging images does not an 'AI industry' make.

If there is development work happening, then there is a tech industry. Perhaps you may consider a tech industry to only exist if it is spawning a million startups a day but that is not a view shared by the rest of the world. See: http://elitebusinessmagazine.co.uk/global/item/how-the-tech-...

I realise this is tangential to the original topic, but this notion that the UK is not a part of Europe (and therefore mentioned separately) seems really weird to me. They can leave the EU as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that physically they're still in Europe.

Is this because of some perceived notion of cultural differences? Because if we're starting to draw lines based on that we probably need to divide mainland Europe into a bunch of separate parts as well.

I only said it that way in an attempt to be clear because they left the EU (and I’ve heard people use Europe to mean EU).

I see, thank you for clarifying. It's true that some people do use Europe to mean EU, I hadn't taken that possibility into account.

In my experience, this is mostly done in sentences like "In Europe something or another is allowed/forbidden/... (by law)", but I can definitely see where you're coming from.

It's because America has (and has historically had) a closer relationship with the UK than with other European countries. The British see themselves as different than the rest of Europe as evidenced by sayings like "on the continent", so it's natural for us to pick some of that up.

Mexico and Canada are technically part of America (North) and Russia is in Asia, yet most people don’t say that Canadians are Americans and Russians are Asians. One of the great funs of language.

Russia is mostly in Europe, population-wise.

Here in Chile, swe coworkers earn about 25k after tax if you are not a manager, boss or the like.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com