If you had to assume that U.S. 5G equipment manufacturers would provide backdoors to U.S. officials, and Chinese 5G equipment manufacturers would provide backdoors to Chinese officials, and Europeans had to use one or the other, which would you choose?
Some European agencies want the US government to spy on European citizens because it is illegal for them to do it themselves but it's not illegal for them to obtain information about European citizens from US spies. Whether the European citizens want to be spied on is another matter.
If you're a European citizen or company you might well prefer to be spied on by the Chinese because there's little danger of the Chinese getting you kidnapped/extradited. Also, if your competitors and business contacts are more US than Chinese then the possibility of Chinese commercial espionage is perhaps less worrying than the possibility of US commercial espionage. It seems likely that US agencies sometimes provide information to Boeing to help them compete against Airbus, for example. I'm thinking more of contract negotiations than technological secrets, of course.
Getting equipment from several suppliers seems like the best plan, generally. You can then play them off against each other not just for price but also for openness and forcing the supplier to allow security audits. I've heard that Huawei has been very helpful in that respect, because of the pressure they're under.
I've always wondered how that works so that employees dont know about the gov involvement. I suppose they could hire a "consultant", but someone in the company still needs to know dont they?
Bingo, data sharing agreements between intelligence services.
NSA can't spy on US citizens but GCHQ can, and GCHQ can't spy ok UK citizens but NSA can.
Then just come up with a sharing agreement, and you're "golden".
It's all ridiculous.
There's no point choosing a Chinese back door over an American one if people you talk to are going to entrust your private messages to gmail/ icloud/ aws/ backblaze/ whatsapp.
For one thing, Swedes are less and less excited by the stream of Middle Eastern migrants caused by American adventures there.
Also, probably the point of whatever the fuck Russia is doing with the EAEU (really should've picked a better name if they want it to stick).
No one wants our specific dental bills, mortgages or tax returns, but governments and corporations love mass statistics.
FVEY exists so that the UK or Canada can legally spy on my communications and turn that data over to my government - which couldn’t otherwise get it without warrants and other pesky civil rights protections.
I think I’d rather take my chances with an adversarial government. I know they’d be spying but their ability to act on it is far more limited.
Now, it may be fair to argue that the information collected from a 5G radio doesn’t mean much at all to my government. But I’d still rather depend on defense in depth.
1: https://dodsioo.defense.gov/Portals/46/DoDM%20%205240.01.pdf...
2: https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/execu...
How well do you think the FISA warrant process is going in reality?
If we're still comparing the US and China, I'd say it's working a great deal better than whatever system is currently (not) protecting Uighurs from systematic unjust search and seizure.
Moreover, there's much more than anecdotal evidence. The recently-released report on the Trump investigation proves this. Even if you hate Trump, there's no getting around the fact that the FBI completely abused the FISA court system, getting warrants by lying and misleading the court. This is a systemic problem.
Today in America it is de facto legal for law enforcement to do this stuff. The fact that a piece of paper somewhere might say otherwise has no bearing on what's actually happening.
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/cops-run-unaut...
> The act imposes some new limits on the bulk collection of telecommunication metadata on U.S. citizens by American intelligence agencies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act
And shortly thereafter:
> The National Security Agency (NSA) has formally recommended that the White House drop the phone surveillance program that collects information about millions of US phone calls and text messages. The Wall Street Journal reports that people familiar with the matter say the logistical and legal burdens of maintaining the program outweigh any intelligence benefits it brings.
https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/25/nsa-drop-massive-phone-s...
Sure, the US isn't perfect.
But I'm still very certain that I trust China's approach to data privacy a little less, since they currently do all of the following to happen, without suspicion of a crime:
* mass collection of blood and hair DNA samples for citizens living in minority regions
* literal government occupation of people's homes to take photos and collect information
* installing government cameras inside of peoples homes
* using that information to track, detain, and send ~1 million minorities to re-education camps without being charged or accused of a crime... where they are subjected to forced sterilization and torture.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/13/china-visiting-officials...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-m...
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/abuse-10302019142433...
The institutional attitudes to privacy are simply not comparable to the US. US authorities are not nonchalant enough about privacy that they think anything close to that that is remotely acceptable in the US.
This isn't actually what's at issue here. The existence of law enforcement databases is a very different thing than the facility for spying on communications. And I still see no evidence that anyone has been punished for that, or that any active measures have been taken to protect abuses of those programs.
However, if this intercontinental extortion were so common, I suspect we would have heard of a single case by now.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/21/revealed-the-s...
But here's the thing: with the platonic ideal of "civil liberties" in mind that might bother me, but practically speaking? Chinese legal protections or threats have no bearing on me. None whatsoever.
I don't have a secret clearance. I don't know anyone who does. I don't know anything of significant value to the Chinese state that they couldn't use their existing sources to steal. My "deepest darkest secrets", at worst, would get me in trouble with my local government. They're not enough of a lever to make me an agent of China.
If, however, the information that could get me in trouble with my local government made it to my local government? That might be more of a concern for me.
Do you see why I might not care in the slightest what China knows about me, while simultaneously caring a great deal what my local government knows?
There will also be effects on your peers, neighbors, and society around you. There are nation-state actors currently using stolen data for blackmail, extortion, and propaganda campaigns, to influence the economic and political stability of other nations.
Whether or not you are a direct target, you will be affected in some way. While you feel much more closely connected to your local government, they are not generally acting out of malice.
The intent of my government or of a foreign government has almost zero bearing on my life, for the life of any other average American – someone who does not have a secret clearance, is not committing major felonies, etc.
What matters is material condition, and the ability of that government to project force and change a person’s material condition.
If Chinese intelligence knows who my weed dealer is, or that I on occasion drive my car faster than the posted speed limit, agents of the MSS aren’t going to tail my car and pull me over. If proof that I’m pirating DVDs hits the great firewall I’m not going to get an email threatening me with legal action.
I don’t care if my government really thinks that weed purchases should be illegal or that driving 5 over the speed limit is a societal crisis or that pirating DVDs is a moral wrong: I care that they can project force against me and impact my life.
I'm sure you can concede that it will, however, be used against organizations, institutions, and people who are important.
Some of those will directly impact your life. This isn't a new idea, the power of both espionage and propaganda are well studied and long established to be effective.
For example:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-documents-reveal-...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir...
>Opium profits funded many leading Boston institutions. Thomas Perkins and a brother helped found Massachusetts General Hospital, left, and Perkins donated one of his homes for a new school that ...
https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2017/07/31/opium-boston-hi...
Yet.
The PRC has been internationally relevant for a few decades. The US has been internationally relevant practically since its founding.
And for whatever reason, people don't think the PRC has continuity with pre-Mao China -- which has been internationally relevant since long before the US existed, and which doesn't have a very nice track record.
Who Was Sun Tzu’s Napoleon? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22296312
>Millennia later, during the Second World War, Mao Zedong seized on this historical vignette to announce that the Chinese Communist forces would not abide by any political, military, or moral limitations in its fight against the Japanese, stating: “We are not Duke Xiang of Song and have no use for his asinine ethics.”
Geopolitics is much less unpredictable than "the future." Even the current administration is not so short-sighted to alienate the US to the point of having no powerful allies. If Europe is not considered an ally (it is, not "more or less," it 100% is), where would the US turn? Even if you take a scenario where Trump and Russia are allies, and the US positions itself closer to Russia, Russia's allies are anathema to US interests and ideals, and will be for the foreseeable future.
I just can't see any reality outside of borderline sci-fi where the US is not a close ally to just about every Western European country.
The major and decisive difference between USA and China is not what they have done, are doing or might do. It is simply that the USA is a democracy and China is not.
In the USA, most of the people in positions of power /have to leave that position/ and /can't do whatever they want/ even when they have it.
That fact alone makes all the difference and is so substantial that it in my mind totally invalidates any whataboutism in this question and any other comparison between the USA and any dictatorship.
Even if a democracy happens to do more evil things in a period of time than a dictatorship, they are the better choice simply because they are a democracy and thus enables the people to both protest and also actually end the evil, through the legal system in the nation. (This does not mean that evil actions are OK when democracies are guilty of them of course, I'm not saying that.)
If and when the day comes that China has had at least two transfers of power to new leaders as a result of internationally observed and validated democratic elections by the people of China, then it would be something to think about. But not as of now.
Based on the premise that I have to choose a spying nation, of course, which I'd rather not do in real life! :)
As an American, I choose European / EU 5G equipment in all scenarios over Chinese 5G equipment. I don't care what the cost is.
Europe, broadly (other than Russia primarily), is aligned with the US in all the ways that matter and will continue to be. China is not in almost any regard. The sole things the US and China have in common is trade and that the next century will be defined by persistent US-China superpower tension all around the world and in most all respects.