The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church
wsj.com
wsj.com
There is always a tension in “what do you spend now and what do you invest for later” but I honesty feel like the Church cannot win this argument. Those who are distrustful of organized religion can win if the church is poor (“why didn’t their ‘prophet’ know better”); if they’re rich (“why don’t they give to X”); or if they do nothing (“they teach their own members to save but don’t practice that themselves—the hypocrites”).
I’m a believer so my view is not disinterested, but where is the conversation that they are conservative in their investments; won’t make money from industries they teach against; etc.
There are very few people in the ecclesiastical arm of the church who work full-time and are provided a living stipend. And many of those people were very successful before leaving their professional lives.
The current President (Russel Nelson) was a pioneer in open heart surgery. I’m pretty comfortable assuming he would have made more money in his life had he not accepted a calling to full-time ministry.
To me this article is interesting but the reaction is predictable. People will read into the confirmation of whatever biases they had to begin with.
For my part, I’d rather the church invest wisely than poorly...
Two comments.
[1] The Mormon church is a corporation sole, meaning presently Nelson is the sole controller of all assets. He could reasonably set up his family for life with beneficial contacts and contracts. That is worth more than (now probably expired) intellectual property associated with open-heart surgery.
[2] The leadership of the Mormon church tends to come from the same set of Utah-based families. Not 100%, but certainly a high representation. It's a social network that has been extractive on the work and labor of their membership for over a century, benefiting these few families greatly. This doesn't mean the organization hasn't done good -- it has. It's just that good doesn't blot out bad, nefarious, negligence, or other societal negatives.
[0] https://davidvbartosiewicz.blogspot.com/2010/12/lds-apostles...
I’m sure it happens as it does in any family (hello Biden!) but I’m not convinced it’s more prevalent in the Church than any other organization of people. It’s an interesting thought, but I’m not sure how prevalent it is.
I have met several general authorities in various capacities (including Bishop Waddell who was quoted in the article). They are humans and suspect to all the frailties that entails, but they have all been serious minded people who take their roles as stewards seriously. I’m sure some amount of fraud or nepotism happens, but I also have a religious view that suggests that whatever wrong is acquired in this life will be corrected in the next.
I have known people who have done things with Church money that they shouldn’t have. All of them were excommunicated for the same. The Church takes its financial stewardship seriously with required audits at all levels.
I agree with the first half of [2] but not the complaint that follows. It was only recently that more members of the Church lived outside the US. As the Church has grown out of Utah and throughout the US (and outside world) they have done a better job of calling people from more areas.
I think this is part of human behavior as well. It can be frustrating, but it’s hard for someone in Salt Lake to know I could serve in capacity X without knowing me personally. Again, it’s getting better as genera leaders travel more and get to know local leaders, but it’s always easiest to think of the person you know.
This happens in business as well: a new CEO brings “his/her team” — I’d like to see less of it (and fully expect to as the Church continues to grow globally).
There are people who will criticise churches regardless, but there seem to be a lot of reasonable people who look at the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church and determine their wealth is inconsistent with their teachings.
Mormons could probably further their message by selling their golden ornaments and using it to shelter the homeless, for instance.
But as someone on the inside, I’ll say this: local congregations have very strict budgets allotted to them, but the welfare component of the budget is essentially unlimited. Local leaders are encouraged (and it is part of their mandate) to “seek out the poor”. Most individual welfare happens at the local level, and local leaders are not expected to limit their assistance to the money the local unit pulls in. This is a simplification of the process, but welfare assistance is one of the few places where local leaders are not given explicit caps.
For a very centralized organization they give a lot of leeway to local leaders to let assess local needs.
As a percentage of their revenue, that is monstrously pathetic. I have a better chance of feeding the poor by giving my money to a Fyre Festival who will take 95% of the money and skip town but pay 5% to a local vendor who buys shitty bread from a local company who employs a poor person for minimum wage.
At least then I wouldn't have felt swindled when I found out that all that money I spent on tithing while working 80 hours a week as a truck driver to pay my way though college was actually just sitting in an investment fund making a handful of people rich. I would have known from the beginning that that was where my money was going, and I would have no room to complain.
At the end of the day, and as unpopular as it is, I believe Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son. Other things are details. I’m not a naive or ignorant person, but I honestly have no issue with how the Church handles its finances (as an organization). Given that we do not believe that anyone is infallible (including the Prophet) I will stop short of absolute statements of any one particular person. But, as an organization, they handle their finances prudently.
Which I appreciate and respect.
Later I learned that it hasn't always been this way. The church has deliberately misrepresented its own doctrine to extract everything they can from these people.
In 1899 the Church was almost bankrupt. President Lorenzo Snow and the GAs went around Utah shaking the members down. The 1899 General Conference was "the tithing conference" and where Lorenzo gave pivotal instruction about tithing - which defined the church in relation to tithing going forward.
Lorenzo Snow said in the 1899 Conference Address
"...I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child WHO HAS MEANS shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..."
Conference Report Oct 1899 page 28 (3/5th way down column 2 on page 28) [http://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1899sa/conferencer...
However, in the 2011 Lesson Manual, in Lesson 12- Tithing, the Church quote this talk as:
"....I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing...."
Teachings of Lorenzo Snow manual, page 160 [https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-ch...]
THE HISTORICAL IDEA THAT YOU ONLY TITHED IF YOU HAD MEANS HAS BEEN REDUCED TO AN ELIPSES.
So yeah...the broke church from the past only asked for tithing from those who had means, but the "prudent" multibillion dollar corporation of the present expects it from people whose children will only grow to 5 feet tall as an adult because their diet consists of rice and yucca and parasite-infected water.
The church is a wealthy corporation today. Sure they manage their finances well. But their coercive tithing policies that are misrepresented by their own modern literature are extremely burdensome to a huge portion of their membership. They don't need their money, and they should stop asking for it and pretending like their salvation depends on it. And if it really is the case that their financial secrecy is hiding their personal enrichment off the backs of those experiencing poverty, I really hope that a hell exists that is as bad as they deserve.
Also church policy has changed over time too - the word of wisdom is a prime example of this.
If you want to find reasons to hate the church, you can. I guarantee it. If you believe God doesn't reward tithing, then yeah, it's scummy.
Personally, I believe and don't think it's scummy.
Personally, given what the church claims that they do with the money, I think it's a very simple and pure case of fraud, and I would like my money back.
I see you're admitting the church is a business.
Also, as far as the church spending time teaching its members all the different ways it invests would be quite tangential to a Sunday class. People don't go to church to understand how the church operates but rather why. As far as the church employing individuals who have studied finance and know how to make the church financially sound is logical and right. The church itself encourages higher studies. Employing those who have studied to further the work is being a wise steward.
Now if they are only using the money to make individuals rich, that would go counter to teachings. What handful of people are you referring to?
You don't have to spend time talking about it in church. Publish an audited yearly financial report, and send it to members in the mail.
And yes it does matter. The church operates like a business. Members literally think of tithing as a form of giving to charity. They should have some expectations and understanding of how that money is spent. Would tithing receipts be the same as they currently are if everybody knew the church had hundreds of billions of assets, 15 years of tithing on reserve, and spent less than a percent of it actually helping those that are in need of charity?
The church claims that since they are a non-profit that they are therefore a charity (they have also claimed that the purpose for stockpiling $124B was for the second coming of Jesus). While they might be able to make this claim legally... it was obviously not the intention of the members who invested the money. If members intended to fund the church directly, they could have simply paid their tithing or even over-paid their tithing (as many members choose to do) as usual. But they chose specifically to donate to charity, which implies someone other than the church.
Since I am assuming you are a member, you are familiar with the tithing slip. That extra line at the bottom that says "charity:_____" yep, that money never went to charity. It went into this fund that the church kept for themselves. Very honest and Christlike.
Obviously one would expect the charity to report yearly on their endeavors - since no aid may be going out at all - however, reporting on each dollar would be a tad difficult to track. So not sure what would be required here.
Emptying out said donations all in one go (to avoid the perception of hoarding say all 100 billion) may not be good either since problems today may be more bearable than problems tomorrow. So not sure what would be required here either.
Probably the best remedy of those who do not wish to trust the Lds charities, would be to stop donating to them.
And the best recourse for people who spent significant sums of money donating to a charity that misrepresented their charitable actions and has acted more like a for profit business would be to initiate a class action suit for fraud and to remove the fake charity's tax exempt status.
Meanwhile, people want grand government projects to "help the middle class" but won't give Yang's UBI a shot.
When the thread was active, a critical comment was on top the entire time. No one can tell me this is happening without a coordinated effort.
They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the finance clerk across several congregations and the analogue of dioceses--wealthy congregations would regularly see $25k/week from 200 congregants and have a budget of ~$8k annually, but this offset with congregations in less affluent areas). They also have massive economic influence over Utah, surrounding states, and often growing suburbs.
They have a very diversified portfolio. As doctrine they take the second coming of Christ seriously and believe they will transform into the world wide government on his return.
For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact.
[0] https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/morning_call/2014/03/far...
I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?
-Jesus
Matthew 19:24
- Supply Side Jesus, https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp
Think on it.
Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."?
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:17-26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew%2019:17-...
Unless the children were looting their elder's estate before the burial, there's no U-Haul behind a hearse.
Beckham is a football player and isn’t known for writing down (or saying) wisdom. But I can definitely imagine people reading Marx and Darwin and Hayek 2000 years from now. Biographies and published text.
The things you cited are famous for being famous, like some celebrity of the ages.
Just like the Mona Lisa was famous for getting stolen and returned, then this was forgotten about but it remained famous, but now just because it was famous previously.
I’m not sure if you’re arguing that there’s nothing old that is wise. Or if people are really smart now. Or all knowledge is just repeated over and over.
I don’t think it’s very productive to argue that the Mona Lisa is the most beautiful painting. But I certainly find it pleasing and beautiful. Are there recent paintings as beautiful? Maybe, but I’m not aware of them so they don’t help me.
Maybe there are recent books as useful as Origin of Species or Republic. But I, and many others, haven’t read them so they are potentially useful if discovered and used. While objectively true is the fact that these historical books have been discovered and used.
So I’m not surprised that people find wisdom in historical books or that books that many find useful remain popular for centuries and millennia.
I don’t think this is a reason to not search for additional wisdom. And I certainly wouldn’t claim they are the ultimate in wisdom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbCzb_FWpi4
Lots of people have claimed to be god. Some are even widely recognized as good people. Do we need to give them all our attention? Cause I'm pretty content living my life without believing in wild fairy tales.
If you don't want to pay any attention to the claims of Christianity, then by all means don't.
Stating that you are, quote, "seeking its demise", is the very definition of intolerance.
> 'Nothing above is even "disparaging", even that fairy tale remark. It's not disparaging to state that, without good evidence, you believe fantastic stories from thousands of years ago to be fairy tails.'
This is the very definition of disparagement.
If I were to refer to your atheistic beliefs as 'the ignorance of children, raised by a wicked society that is under the influence of psychopathic demons', would you view that as disparaging? Of course you would.
The difference between that way of viewing things and your way of viewing things is simply a matter of perspective. The difference is, one viewpoint is based on knowledge, whereas the other is based in ignorance.
Source: I used to be an atheist also. As a teenager. In the Bible Belt.
Evangelizing atheism is no more intolerant than evangelizing your religion. Personally I have no particular interest in doing either, but if you get bent out of shape over somebody doing it, that's on you. If you don't like somebody disagreeing with your beliefs then move to a theocracy where such things are forbidden. The "intolerance" you describe is in fact an expression of the bedrock of liberal society.
You are espousing the Jesus Myth theory. That is a fringe theory which have generally been rejected by historians. The similarities with Amon etc. are pretty superficial except for the universal resurrection theme. Don't believe the websites with long lists of unsourced parallels.
And I guess you’ve never heard of Josephus? He’s only the most well known Jewish historian since Moses.
Jesus most certainly lived, no serious scholar of history claims otherwise.
But you are correct that historians generally consider Jesus to be historical. It is not so much due to Josephus though, but more due to critical reading of the Gospels themselves.
Regardless, Jesus was absolutely a historical character. No serious historian debates this.
Jesus is a known historical figure. Pretending otherwise is silly. The end.
- Matthew 13:12
^-- which should not be interpreted as rich people are "righteous" and poor people are "bad," but rather people tend to worship the rich and abuse the poor.
These are things you can't take to heaven. These are things you should not covet. This and many other of Jesus's teaching demonstrate that to be holy and good is to focus not on the material, but on helping your fellow man. There's nothing saying you will get barred from heaven if you're rich. But there's plenty that says you should give away your wealth and spend all your time helping others. You know, kinda like what Jesus did...
The problem with much of mainstream American Christianity is that it tries to reconcile the greed and amorality of Capitalist wealth accumulation with its own teachings and they are fundamentally irreconcilable. Or, if you want, by its own scripture:
“No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
More reflection is required for a deeper understanding.
> The "Eye of the Needle" has been claimed to be a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night. A camel could only pass through this smaller gate if it was stooped and had its baggage removed. This story has been put forth since at least the 15th century, and possibly as far back as the 9th century. However, there is no widely accepted evidence for the existence of such a gate.[7][8]
I’ve seen this attributed to C.S. Lewis, but I’ve never tracked it down.
my favorite book on the subject of why is "Robert Cialdini's Influence": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence:_Science_and_Practic...
Amusingly, his ideas align more with beliefs held by “the young left” than by “the old right”. (Yesyes, bad terms but you know what I mean) And yet the real-world allegiances are inverted.
Given the 'young left' is a collectivist ideology, which seeks to institute a form of 'ancestral sin' - people being responsible for their parents' and grandparents' wrongs, etc. - and which has made physical wealth and attributes the sole measurements of moral integrity, being a purely secular worldview - it is not in any way compatible with the teachings of Christ.
But people don't like to hear that. Self-righteousness is a potent drug, something else Christ taught about quite regularly. :)
Your 'ancestral sin' interpretation could easily be said on capitalists who don't have a problem with people capital fortune being decided mostly a birth. (You're born poor, you are likely to stay poor, you're born rich you're likely to stay rich no matter what you do). Or, You could also easily say that the Protestant morals equate physical wealth accumulation with how moral you are. Because if you do good by God, of you'll get rewarded with prosperoty. In your lifetime.
This is of course nonsense just as your interpretation of social democrat ideology.
Being born into wealth lends a significant chance of mismanagement and losing that wealth.
Protestants - not the megachurches that go by the label 'protestant', but believe nothing remotely related to Scripture - have no such conception.
Lastly, you're moving what I said, narrowing the scope to 'democratic socialists'.
1. It's very hard to lose wealth while in management. Networking and clique play a big part of the manager eco system. Plus, in the startup area, if you are an entrepreneur that his startup failed you are not considered a failure, far from it. It is also more likely for you to bean entrepreneur if yoy have a strong financial background.
2. This 'True Protestant Ideal' isn't relevant. This 'false Protestant' developed from a Protestant mindset, through a natural evolution of ideas. Plus, I think you'd find that a similar part of these so called 'True Protestant' make claims like those I made point with.
3. The only relevant left in the west, is social democratic. Maybe in the US less so, only Sanders could fit that description. But, I'm not from the US, so my default meaning of left is social democratic. Which left we're you speaking of?
The parallels are particularly strong with the Roman imperial cult now that so many seem to want to worship a Caesar. I see this trend as independent of Trump per se. I saw it around Bush II, but IMHO it didn't take there because Bush did not want to be emperor. I get the impression that Bush actively rejected that role, especially seeing the quiet life of apparent personal recovery he has pursued after the presidency.
You have places like HN that fill a certain purpose for the audience, but you also have places where neonazis and other repugnant fringes can do their thing.
You also see a lot of extreme behavior tied to single issues like abortion or birth control. In short, people very passionate about an issue will often veer (or be steered) into an ends justify the means type philosophy.
Citation? Not my experience at all.
On the wealth issue specifically, you can certainly read it that way. I mean, I think it's wrong, but it's not like there aren't things that can be viewed, in isolation, as just as emphatic support for the prosperity gospel as other passages can be viewed as a mandate for asceticism.
> I think the population of people that are left leaning and Christian practicing is low and they don’t tend to be as influential on the national stage as the religious right.
The left-leaning Christian types tend not to wave Christianity around like a cudgel in political discussions, which makes them less visible as Christians in those contexts, even when they are quite visible.
Especially the old testament.
In genesis whenever god made a covenant (like made Abraham the main dude) it always came with God giving them great wealth (sheep and an abundance of land) as well as leadership of entire areas. At least the early stuff, the leaders/prophets were hardly the poverty stricken Jesus story.
A lot of that poverty narrative became a greater part of Christianity with Saint Francis of Assisi in the middle ages which help push the helping the poor angle as mainstream image of the church.
But otherwise you can find plenty of evidence of great wealth leaders in Christian history. Not just in the centuries of mass wealth accumulation in the Holy empires and the Catholic church.
“Christianity” is about Christ, not something else.
> Especially the old testament.
The old testament is context for the NT, but with a very small number of exceptions (and with the exceptions of potential general applicability to Jewish Christians, which were common in the first Christian communities but rare today) the dictates of the OT law expressly are superceded by the “Jesus stuff” for Christians.
Jesus was a radical hippie immigrant refugee, and his teachings are of course co opted now for the exact opposite effect.
I highly recommend reading: "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" https://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/B...
He was far from a hippie immigrant. He fit a pattern of many men before him claiming similar sanctity and happened to be at the right time and right place in a warn torn Israel for it to really find an audience.
But I wasn't even talking about the man himself from a historical perspective, just the general religious and historical environment from which his legend grew. The man-of-the-poor and anti-wealthy narrative was very much a later development in the history of christianity and was always floating on the sidelines of their work, especially in terms of how it was adopted, not merely what was written in the decades and centuries after he died in the bible.
Like all religious works there are plenty of room for interpretation and holy but great wealthy leaders are plentiful in the history of christianity. It's hardly a new thing. It's even more established in the Koran through the various prophets and leaders in their canon, all of whom held great power and leadership in their local areas.
Even today the works of Mother Theresa are very controversial. Especially in terms of their long term ROI (ie, helping the poor stay poor by accepting their place and not developing the skills or industry to escape such die situations, which to me is not something to be revered).
I'm guessing you're talking about the moneychangers being thrown out of the temple?
There are examples recorded in the scriptures of tithes and offerings, and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc).
There are multiple levels of preparedness taught in the LDS church. The lowest, the family, being to only have necessary debt (e.g. university or a house) and to have 3 days of storage for in case of emergencies for your own family (or individual self), or to help others. Then in some areas you have Bishop storehouses. It goes up and up.
> I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ)
Why does the LDS church do it?
To go into detail would probably be outside the scope of HN, but if this is a serious question, Richard Dawkins is a good source on how the LDS church was founded.
IIRC, the living stipend for members of the Twelve was around $100k? Or less than the salary of an intern at Google...
He was no Jeff Bezos, but that is still miles away from being modestly compensated, as they like to pretend is happening. And remember, they're only admitting to being modestly compensated after a century and a half of pretending they weren't being compensated at all...a lie exposed by leaks, not the mormon church. They haven't been upfront about compensation, and they never will unless they are forced to.
But we agree that the Church is tight with its money. I just argue that’s a good thing...
But tight with its money amongst those that control it? Neither of us know...because it is a secret. A secrecy that has no benefit but to protect those who control it from scrutiny.
I don't know how you could view either of those things as a "good thing" in the traditional christian understanding of good.
But they aren't a benevolent institution.
These are things that no amount of hint & innuendo from others can change, because I have personally seen, experienced, and learned.
I have tried to explain more at my web site (which has no sales or javascript): http://lukecall.net . I think I lack the adequate words.
Demanding they do so, and that others don’t seems rather suspect though. Why treat one religion different than another? There are plenty of people abusing the system. Proposing that all these institutions be placed under the same burden. It would be fair.
The GAs I know of personally who did not obtain wealth in their private career are not rich in any worldly sense beyond middle-class Americans, and the few I have met were kind and unselfish (and very bright & capable). I was a also Church employee for a time.
In contrast, I have no experiences or knowledge indicating abuse of power or influence by GAs, except very rarely where I read about it in the news and they quickly were not GAs any more.
https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018/05/30/mormonleaks-compi...
Edit: actually, I could be wrong on that. The Church might have had stock in CSB for all I know. It certainly didn't seem church-owned at the time. Monson did work in the printing industry.
And how do you know that about free university (and any of it)? I'd be surprised. I'm not asking for a zillion citations, but, I'm skeptical.
Edit: And free use of "private homes"? No idea what you could mean there, unless it is the condo that the president of the Church lives in for security reasons. Pres. Hinckley, a long-time do-it-yourselfer in his own yard & property, said he lived in a "filing cabinet: a condominium! I don't think people were meant to live in condominiums!".
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/45h0je/when_the_b...
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/bpiftw/800000_to_...
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/cvbh8q/impress_yo...
https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/lds/ci_8271793
As far as free university, I know because I went to school with one of Christensen's sons and he told me.
In the 2nd link, I believe those individuals, as is common with GAs, had successful careers before becoming full-time Church workers, and are probably wealthy. Elder Ballard worked in a family auto dealership (probably more to it than that, that's what I know), Gong was in international relations, Nelson a ground-breaking, internationally known heart surgeon, etc. When GAs are called, there is usually a blurb online about their previous careers (which they give up), that someone could easily find if desired. So they could easily pay for what they like. It sounds right about the president's apartment, and thankfully so (security/health help). Etc. (As I have now noted elsewhere here, Elder Gay previously founded and was an executive at a private equity firm.)
It is good, though a lot of work, to build something that lasts, which is what these are trying to do. Those good efforts bring long-term peace and joy. I wrote elsewhere here about my personal experience and knowledge of the Church's long-term influence on individuals and families, that I personally know (some more than others), in the hundreds, and of whom I have read their journals, and knowing enough of individuals now, and personalities, to see consistencies in personality and behaviors and culture, to have some confidence there is not deception in the journals that extend back, to Joseph Smith. Regardless of what anyone else says, or the human faults we all do have (I do; and they will be found in any large organization), I have seen and know what I know, both with my human eyes and mind, and in answers to prayer. More, of personal thoughts and experiences, at http://lukecall.net .
Edit: I found a page with links to their bios (fairly international, if you read down & click photos), that indicate education & prior careers: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leaders .
> Or less than the salary of an intern at Google...
It'd be remarkable if their stipend was less than the salary of an intern at nearly any other company. Google is a huge exception
Those who work for the church full time (with the exception of missionaries) receive a stipend to cover their living expenses and not much else.
Source/citation? My understanding is that salaries and other financials are not public.
Edit: I found a page with links to their bios (fairly international, if you read down & click photos), that indicate education & prior careers: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leaders .
We have no way of knowing that, because the church keeps their finances shrouded from public view. Not even members that have paid 10% for their entire lives have a view into how the money is spent.
What we do have is a few leaked pay stubs showing actual amounts, and leaked memos acknowledging the existence of, but not quantifying, other forms of compensation. We also have some tangible evidence of the large net worth of various leaders of the church. The typical excuse is that they made lots of money before they were general authorities...but we also have proof of large (8-figure) net worths of people like Thomas Monson, who was a church employee (notorious for lower than market pay) for his entire career.
So what we really have is some leaked proof of a decently sized lower bound on compensation and knowledge that it goes higher than that, with the possibility that it could go much higher. How much higher, we don't know. And we won't until the church decides to actually share their finances.
I know that unapproved critical thinking is looked down on in the mormon church, but if I were a believing member, I would probably be asking why they won't do just that. If they really are responsible and meagerly paid stewards of god's money, they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by being transparent about it. Occam's razor tells me that they're a bunch of liars and secrecy suits them far better than transparency does.
It's not a massive conspiracy. It's a very simple conspiracy: don't tell people what you do with the money they give you, and then they don't have any way to criticize you about how you use it. In fact, the very culture that they've fostered to enable this freedom from criticism (just trust me, I'm a mormon bishop!) has become a problem that others have begun to exploit.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/...
I think the issue was that the church was being used as a place for worldly pursuits.
The whole point is that the temple authorities were part of and profiting from what was happening. Jesus was dead with 10 days of this event.
There is a lot of depth here and it’s a genuinely fascinating story whether you ascribe to religious belief or not.
Matthew 19:24, direct 'quote' from Jesus: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Seems pretty clear.
> being to only have necessary debt (e.g. university or a house)
I work for a Mormon owned company, this ideology even extends there. It's completely ignorant of why debt exists and how it can be used to offset inflation and improve capital expense flows. As a 'doctrine' it's misplaced at best.
> Why does the LDS church do it?
They cite the parable of the three talents, but I think they've gravely misunderstood that passage. The point wasn't for the servants to make money for themselves, it was to share their efforts and work with the world around them in order to improve it for everyone.
God had given them these gifts and they weren't to waste them, not hoard them for themselves.
Organizations aren't people. Organizations don't enter the kingdom of God; people do. Wealth sitting around and growing in organizational coffers doesn't belong to any one person.
Jesus praised the widow for paying a 100% tithe into organizational coffers.
That's awfully spun. Organizations don't have brains either. They don't "decide" to do anything with that money, people do. Those people do so on the basis of some kind of self-interest. And in practice (I'm sure in this case too, though I don't have LDS-specific numbers to back it up) the people who make decisions for "organizations" tend themselves to be either very wealthy or live very wealthy lives based on that influence.
I mean... I'm an atheist. But if I weren't, and I were hanging my appraisal of my chances at eternal salvation on the fact that technically I run an LLC and that money isn't mine... Yeah, St. Peter doesn't seem likely to buy that excuse.
People have quoted that single verse a lot, and it's often funny to me when someone says something along the lines of "seems pretty clear" in regards to a single verse, especially one which people aren't sure is even translated correctly.
If we read it in context, in my opinion doesn't align with the implied meaning that you can't get into Heaven 'easily' if you are rich. Like many good teachings, they start with a question (ftr I'll be using the KJV version).
> 15 .. Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Christ then goes on about what people should do to have eternal life, like keep the commandments. Christ said that someone who is simply rich will have a hard time receiving it. Even today in many cultures and economies, we associate wealth with goodness. We often trust more those who have lots of money. We look up to them. The disciples were amazed that a rich person would have a hard time getting in. If we look at other examples (like the widow and her mite), the people often looked down upon the poor. The poor often couldn't worship as the non-poor did.
So it's not the act of being rich, but rather a. what you do with your wealth, and b. if you're asked to give it up, will you? There's example of a young man who was asked to do that in a few verses prior.
For a., you cited the parable of the talents, which is a great addition to this topic. People who are given much, have much expected of them.
But they are using it for members of the church, and non-members. Are they storing money? Sure, but is that inherently bad? Nope. You could store money for a. a rainy day and b. to pay for upcoming things. Does the church do both, they do.
For b., have the LDS members been asked to give up wealth, in order to do good? Yes, they have! At the early days of the church, thousands gave up effectively everything they had. They abandoned their lives and moved across the USA, or across the Atlantic, or other long treks.
> President Brigham Young (1801–77) spoke of the difficulty people face when they accumulate riches: “The worst fear that I have about this people is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and His people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church. … This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth” (quoted in James S. Brown, Life of a Pioneer [1971], 122–23).
You quoted my question, but didn't answer why they do it, but simply said that hoarding money is bad. Are they doing it to be bad and watch it be wasted? This reminded me of an interaction in the Book of Mormon, Alma 30:
> 35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that acauses such joy in their hearts?
> 36 And Korihor answered him, Yea.
Here’s the full passage from 19:24-26
> 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. > 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? > 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
It’s not evil to be rich. In my mind richness just makes being evil easier. Being rich without God in your life is what Christ was saying makes it impossible to enter the kingdom of God. I have a very wise neighbor who said that richness of the World is a great accelerator for a greater Good or a greater Evil. Here’s a relevant scripture from The Book of Mormon that basically states it’s not evil to be rich, Jacob 2:18-19
> 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. > 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
People may not like the Church or what it does for whatever reasons, but it does a great amount of good for people and that good often has nothing to do with money, but with a better outlook on life and an understanding of our place in it. I know those that leave the Church sometimes get a hard time from members. Sometimes people have bad experiences with members of the Church, but the Church teaches what Christ would have us do and sometimes people fall short of that, that doesn’t make the Church wrong. It just means the Church has imperfect members.
The keystone of our religion is The Book of Mormon and it is a beautiful book. The doctrine in it is superb. I believe The Book of Mormon to be the word of God, and that it would enable one to understand the mind, will, and character of Christ. If someone reads it with an open heart and mind they can come closer to Christ. I am far from done learning from it despite having read it over 7-8 times. It teaches of Christ’s and God’s mercy, but also their justice and law. It explains the purpose of life on Earth (2 Nephi 2), and the reason for God’s punishment to the wicked (Alma 42). It preaches repentance which I’ve had explained to me as a turning towards God. It explains that people prosper when they live righteously and that wickedness often leads to personal and societal downfall. It also teaches that the rain falls on both the righteous and the wicked. It explains Charity and love. It teaches pride, doubt, discouragement as antitheses of faith. It teaches humility, virtue, honesty, faith, hope, and diligence. It teaches that sometimes the truth can be hard, like as it was for those who heard Christ’s Sermon at Capernaum and took the words to be hard and walked no more with Christ. The book has a reference to Christ on average every other verse [1]. It teaches of the purpose of agency and why people are allowed to make wrong choices that affect and hurt others. It also teaches of the choice to choose liberty (the freedom to choose that comes only by living the law) and eternal life according to Christ or captivity and death (meaning spiritual death) through the Devil.
Of course knowledge of the truth of something including the character of Christ doesn’t lead one to automatically follow it which is why we all need all the help we can get honestly.
> They cite the parable of the three talents, but I think they've gravely misunderstood that passage. The point wasn't for the servants to make money for themselves, it was to share their efforts and work with the world around them in order to improve it for everyone. God had given them these gifts and they weren't to waste them, not hoard them for themselves. > God had given them these gifts and they weren't to waste them, not hoard them for themselves.
I think God gave them those talents, so that they would build and multiply them. I know you may think the church is the one burying their talent in the ground, but the gift of money is best used if invested and multiplied. Regardless, I believe there to be multiple correct interpretations of that parable and multiple meanings to it, so I’m not discounting the fact that you are supposed to share your talents as well.
My faith in the Church comes fundamentally down to my own personal spiritual witness of the truth of The Book of Mormon and in my testimony of modern revelation, and I firmly believe that Christ leads the Church. As stated in Isaiah 55:8 sometimes God can have a wiser purpose than we see in things this is why coupled with my personal testimony of The Book of Mormon these attacks against the church barely cast a shadow of a doubt about the truthfulness of it in both my heart and mind.
[1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1978/07/dis...
[Edit: Asking because I wonder often about the provenance my own spiritual experiences. I’m currently leaning toward “generated by the brain,” but I would love to be wrong about that.]
I’ve often had very sudden powerful spiritual experiences. I would describe it as a very euphoric sensation. It’s a sudden feeling of overwhelming peace and comfort that can come with force upon both the mind and heart [1]. I’ve had this only after putting in a lot of my own time on spiritual things and on experimenting with the word (Alma 32 [here Alma invites us to experiment on the word and says faith is like a seed and if you plant it and look after it then it can grow]). I don’t always feel it with the same force and power, but sometimes I have to cast my mind on the times that I have had those feelings.
Here’s an interesting 3 part series on revelation [2]. It speaks of three analogies to spiritual experiences. First, it could be like a light-switch instantly changing from spiritual darkness into light (Elder Bednar says this is more rare than common). Second could be like a sun-rise gradually illuminating with knowledge and light (he says this is more common). He also gives a last analogy of revelation in that it can be like walking through a fog with only enough light to know to take a step forward.
Sometimes people describe the Holy Ghost as a still small voice. The spirit teaches us to do good and the spirit allows us to discern good from evil [3]. God and the spirit manifest themselves in diverse ways, but all good things come of Christ otherwise man/woman were fallen (in reference to the fall of Adam and Eve) and no good thing could come of them [4] (this is due to the Justice of God which without the mercy coming from Christ and His Atonement which allows us to repent and be forgiven we would be lost). Most importantly if you are struggling to say is this my own thought ask yourself if it invites you to do good and to partake of God’s love, if it does then it is of God and the Spirit. I think Paul states very well how we can know of spiritual things in the New Testament in 1 Corinthians 2:7-14 [5]. I also love what Alma said to Zeezrom when asked how he knew so much about the mysteries of God (Alma 12:8-11) [6].
[1]: D&C 8:2-3
> 2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.
> 3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.
[2]: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media-library/video/2012...
[3]: Moroni 7:12-16
> 12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
> 13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
> 14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
> 15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
> 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
[4]: Moroni 7:24
> 24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.
[5]: 1 Corinthians 2:7-14
> 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
> 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
> 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
> 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
> 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
> 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
> 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
> 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[6]: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/al...
I have collected a bunch of links (official and not) w/ further info, at my personal site, such as at: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854578831.html
and http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854589754.html
and my own thoughts on this and various subjects at http://lukecall.net , such as http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854587122.html .
ps: It strikes me after many years of general reading & observation that economic up/down cycles would be very reduced or different if we used savings instead of debt, more. And, being in debt leaves one under the control of others, to some degree, reducing independence of planning and action. I'm not saying it is never appropriate, but it also has some somewhat predictable effects.
Edit: I see that others have also posted these links that give some official responses:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-fina...
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presi...
The church does have extrabiblical volumes of scripture, which also testify of Christ and go into more depth, but every doctrine of the church is in harmony with the Old and New Testaments. Members believe it is only by faith in Christ and by good works that they can be saved.
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
This is confusing, because there are many different passages that highlight different things. It seems easiest to look at it as a process that begins with salvation through grace and continues as you grow in faith.
You're not saved by faith alone. You do need a small amount of faith to believe in the first place, but then it is grace (the unwarranted forgiveness of your sins) that saves you, but only if you accept it and repent (reject/renounce/turn away) from your sins:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8)
As you grow in faith, you will produce works, and if you do not, then your faith is dead. (the aforementioned James 2, which was really aimed at believers, not those who hadn't yet accepted Christ.)
So, it goes like this:
(little) faith -> salvation by grace -> more faith -> works
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9)
But if you die after salvation and true acceptance of your guilt and sin and repentance, you still go to Heaven, even if you are the most vile murderer on death row, because that's what grace is: completely unwarranted forgiveness.
But, if you stay alive and truly have faith, you will naturally produce works (that is, doing good things). If you don't do that, your faith is dead.
Salvation requires Christ to atone for our sins, and that forgiveness and atonement is granted on the condition that our works be in line with what Christ taught. So:
Faith -> Repentance -> Baptism (+ continuing to repent and improve yourself daily through faith and good works) -> Salvation through grace.
The Book of Mormon clarifies this belief (which is consistent with the teachings of James):
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." [1]
[1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-...
Entry into the earthly Kingdom of God is based on the ancient suzerainty covenant, the covenant you as a citizen of a kingdom make with the ruler. You are accepted into the kingdom by swearing “faith” (eg fealty) to the suzerain. In return you are promised the protection of the suzerain; you receive the rights of a citizen in the kingdom.
The key insight here is that the meaning of the word “faith” has changed from “to have loyalty to” to “to have belief in”.
From the moment you swear fealty (“faith”) you are a full member of the kingdom. However, if you do not fulfill the obligations of a member of the kingdom (“works”) you can absolutely get yourself kicked back out.
So:
1) you are “saved” from the moment you enter the covenant, eg express loyalty to God; and you remain saved as long as you remain in the covenant. 2) works are not optional. They are the wages required to remain in the covenant.
Or as John put it: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
Who is God?
LDS: God was once a man, who became a god There is more than one god, but only one god that we have to do with.
Christianity: There is only one God, who is the creator of all other things.
What happens when you die?
LDS: If you are truly evil, you will go to the bad place. If you are generally ok, you will go to the ok place. If you follow LDS teachings your whole life and perform the required temple rituals, you will eventually become a god.
Christianity: Heaven (eternity with God) or Hell (eternity without God)
What must you do to be saved?
LDS: You must perform many good works, including temple rituals.
Christianity: There is no good work you can perform that will save you. You have to trust Jesus and put your faith in Him. Good works are possible evidence that you have done this.
For the record, Mormons consider themselves Christian, and are considered part of the Christian taxonomy. As an example, the first line of "Mormonism" wiki article says:
> Mormonism is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity started by Joseph Smith in Western New York in the 1820s and 30s.[0]
More info at [1].
Still, I think you'd find very few theologians who would consider them to be Christian. Their beliefs are largely based on the Christian scriptures but significantly depart from the traditional form of Christianity outlined in the early creeds. And that's the point of restorationism: Everyone else got it wrong, and those differences REALLY matter to the point where God gave a new revelation to fix it.
For actual teachings, the Book of Mormon (with the Bible) is all about Christ. I believe one can search by topics, at, for example, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/general-conference?lang=... . I have written more on what I know and how I know it, at my personal site: http://lukecall.net .
Most Christians would disagree with the notion that Elohim and Jesus/Jehovah are two distinct beings and that this unity is found (albeit, not explicitly) in the NT. Furthermore, Jesus' role in the the Mormon Plan of Salvation is a significant departure from the soteriology people usually derive from the NT. I understand one can argue otherwise and people do (e.g. Swedenborg's soteriology), but it's an extreme minority position even among the schismatic mess that is Christianity. You can argue that the Mormon movement got these right where everyone else got it wrong because Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets were given revelation to correct the errors. Accept the truth of that or not, it's more evidence that the Mormons are something significantly different from what we'd normally call Christianity. From that perspective, perhaps the Mormon movement is the true Christianity and the rest are something else. But there is a huge difference no matter what side you take.
> For actual teachings, the Book of Mormon (with the Bible) is all about Christ.
But is it the same Christ? The Mandaeans have scripture that teaches about Christ. But in these scriptures, he's evil. Islam's Quran also talks a lot about Christ. But he mostly exists to disavow doctrines about him that Islam considers heretical. And even confining ourselves to the canonical gospels, the Christ of John and the Christ of Mark are noticeably different. You can certainly argue that if the Book of Mormon is "the most correct of any book on earth" and it reveals aspects of Christ omitted from or distorted in the traditional Christian scriptures. So it's the same Christ, represented more accurately. But if you reject the Book of Mormon as inspired, it's easy to see the Mormon Christ as something else with significant differences.
I am very grateful that the Book of Mormon promises that we can find out for ourselves if it is true, if we do it His way. Then, one has independent knowledge and can use it to go forward, and increase the knowledge with more & more applied experience. :)
Do I get a planet?
Christ taught: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, give all you have to those in need then come follow me, else there's no path to heaven if you're a shallow rich person.
I'm no expert on Marxism, but I think there's quite a bit of crossover in ideologies.
But the point of my argument is most church's don't practice what Christ preached, they're essentially anti-christian churches.
He did not teach that the government should force everyone to do that.
But can you provide some citations that show that is Jesus's own opinion rather than people's interpretation of something?
IF you're talking about the "leave your money and follow me" thing, I doubt he was talking about the money itself there. He said it was harder for a man to enter heaven with all his riches – but what if someone's virtue rose so high that they were able to enter heaven and then they encountered money – it would not have been true that they were virtuous if the money itself is capable of corrupting them. It's like saying that water corrupts someone. Wrong education (environment) does. Wrong education means that they stopped handing down the truth which was revealed by philosophy, lost the ability to make students able to see reality, and came to spread falsehoods, stories, logical derivations, and people's thoughts instead.
Mind reading. Would you like me to tell you what's going on in your head? I'm not a Christian, BTW. But this isn't the place to make inflammatory statements.
I've seen people leave with and without. As to why they've not left with dignity, it's sometimes not one-sided.
Edit: For those who are making many negative guesses and assumptions about my comments. My comment had nothing to do with the OP's personal life at all (as I know nothing about their personal experience). My comment was simply to make a counter-claim to the blanket statement that the church allows no one to leave with dignity.
The OP has since shared more details about their personal experience, which was absolutely a terrible experience in every way. It's awful that they, and their family, had to go through that. If I feel so awful about it, have I ever attempted to reduce the likelihood of such things happening? Yes! I have.
I have also seen people leave the church without any great undue process or negativity—or loss of dignity (in my interpretation of what was meant by dignity).
Edit [2]: There has already been more than 1 other person comment, who has left the church, who didn't experience any of the negative things that the OP did. That doesn't mean that OP is lying, exaggerating, or anything, it's simply my point—OP's experience is not the universal experience, nor the officially designed experience. Is OP's experience more common than it should? Absolutely yes.
In order to get my records at least flagged as no longer a Mormon, thus to keep random visits from local congregations from occurring, I had to get a lawyer involved.
In order for my children to not be repeatedly hounded by some parents at school to come back with their kids over the weekend so they could attend the local congregation, we needed legal action.
I didn't speak out or speak up vocally when I left. I just stopped going to the local congregation. Not a single person there chose to continue friendship. My wife attended a few more years, and had to constantly deal with rumors that I had an affair (I did not). When we moved and I was no longer known to the new congregation, she had to deal with the the local leadership trying to instantiate romantic relationships with widowers and unmarried gentlemen in the congregation because they assumed I was either dead or because since she still attended our marriage was on the rocks.
My story is not unique, and I can say with confidence that the social pressures on the members result in them feeling justified performing actions intended to take away dignity of former congregants ("apostates").
I did not read it as that, and don't believe that is what his statement conveys.
What information could the poster have been conveying, then, if not nothing? In context, I think it's clear that the intended update for readers was to raise the possibility that tomrod's indignities were self-inflicted.
It could be that the poster was trying to smear tomrod, or that they were baiting tomrod into responding at length (if so, success!), or that they genuinely didn't consider the implications of their comment, or something else entirely that was too subtle for me to catch. Probably only they will ever know. :)
Today's your lucky day ;)
> In context, I think it's clear that the intended update for readers was to raise the possibility that tomrod's indignities were self-inflicted.
It wasn't in reference to tomrod's experience at all. Mystery solved.
> It could be that the poster was trying to smear tomrod
Absolutely not! And I find that suggestion reprehensible.
Not at all. You are assuming another's thought process and motive, and doing so without any charity.
What indicated that I thought it was trivial? It's not my default position, nor has it ever been my position that it's trivial—I know absolutely that it's not. Speaking of assumptions?
Edit: For others, there's been substantial additions to the parent comment of this comment.
You made a generalization, the response above simply suggests a more nuanced view. They did not suggest anything about your specific situation.
Edit: Specifically "It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact" was the generalization. When I read this I also thought "that's simply not true. I hope someone points out that it depends on the circumstances and the people involved".
- The Mormon church doctrine is that people who leave have fallen away, and are apostates
- Several messages from the central authority (called General Authorities) have disseminated over the last several decades telling congregants to shun apostates (soft), not listen to them (direct), and similar
- Wealthy parents have been encouraged by the central authority to not leave inheritance to their wayward children, and to use it to keep them adherent to Mormon orthopraxis
- Parents and congregants are often encouraged to be very bold in their attempts to keep wayward congregants adherent (until the congregants admits disbelief). "Ward Council" and similar organizing local leadership sessions are intended to share gossip to identify potential wayward congregants
- quitmormon.com is a pro bono service set up by a former Mormon in Utah and is the only service I've seen that is able to get records removed from the Mormon database records. If one does not remove their records, the central authority instructs local congregations to find people to keep their database records up to date.
These mix together and result in a large variety of experiences, often where the targeted wayward congregant is stripped of dignity and, eventually, respect in the eyes of people they spend substantial time with.
These issues are organization-wide and centrally driven, and hence the organization does not allow you to leave with dignity.
EDIT: I realized I made the "wealthy parent" comment across several comments. This is not connected to my experience, as I do not come from wealth whatsoever, but is something that has been observed in the past few years. I mention solely to point out the systemic issues I see.
I found the problems in the church to be more subtle and less obviously cult-like. For example, encouraging you to pay 10% tithing, then squirreling it away in a $100B hedge fund. Propagation of the idea of Joseph Smith as a prophet. Sexism. Belief in God.
I've been outspoken in this thread, and I have to agree. My immediate family knows, but my extended family (cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents) operate on a don't ask don't tell kinda policy. At first when I left there was shunning, but only from my dad. I did have to rebuild that relationship, but there were other stressors in our lives.
> I found the problems in the church to be more subtle and less obviously cult-like.
I have also called the church a cult, in this thread, and I can't agree more. I cannot stand others from the outside telling me how Mormons are the kindest people they ever meet. But they don't know that underneath it all it is with the intention of conversion. I will say, that this comes from a good place and that they are trying to do good, but the church doctrine does a lot of harm itself. There is a very secretive nature to the church that appears to me to be cultish. And I think unless you've been on the inside you don't see the two faces. The church is good at being subtle, and I think the WSJ (and other) article is evidence of how good they are at keeping secrets.
This is definitely not true. It may have been the case for you, but my dad and brother/wife all left years ago without any problems at all. We are still on great terms.
Maybe anyone that walks away from family norms gets this. Maybe the more extreme/rigid the belief is, the stronger the reaction is?
It’s been a long time for me, and over time most people have accepted it on some level. Christmas time seems to be the worst... probably why I don’t even like the holidays that much anymore!
My brother and his wife asked us not to bring up church stuff to them, and like normal humans and family members who respect each other, we obliged. And it's a two way street; when they come visit us we still say prayers for meals and they don't make a bug fuss about it.
If your experience were more common, the exmormon subreddit would probably be as dead as the /r/excatholic subreddit. Now that is a community that really doesn't give a shit if you decide to not show up to church anymore.
I have plenty of Catholic friends who decided not to baptize their children, grandparents weren't happy but it's rarely a reason to truncate relationships.
Edit: anecdotal evidence, of course, YMMV.
Because the substantive truth of the theology isn’t dispositive of whether family members have a right (in the social, not legal, sense) to criticize each other from departing from certain norms and practices.
For example, there is a lot of evidence showing that the supposed harms of moderate drinking during pregnancy are overstated, and the benefits of breast feeding are overstated. The effect of screen time on kids is also overstated. Just because someone might conclude that advice is wrong, does that mean family members are out of bounds for giving that advice? Or that people shouldn’t have to graciously accept it? There are boundaries, sure, but family members are entitled to express their views on how each other live their lives.
Beyond that, there are objective benefits to religion apart from the truth or falsity of the theological doctrine. Studies show that actively religious people tend to be significantly happier and more socially involved: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religio.... Is that a sufficient basis for family members to encourage each other to raise their kids within the community religion, irrespective of the truth of the theology?
Also, there are non-falsifiable moral judgments that are independent of but associated with religion. Secular US culture emphasizes individualism, self expression, and personal fulfillment. Many believe that kids should be raised with a strong sense of duty to family, and the expectation that their purpose in life is to work hard and raise families of their own. These ideas are independent of theological truth. Many non-religious people believe these things too. But if you think it’s important for kids to be consistently exposed to those ideas, you’ll find that most of the people who have those beliefs just happen to be either religious (or Asian, or both). Is it out of line for communities to encourage their members to conform to values that they believe are more conducive to a better world? Whether the underlying theology is true or false doesn’t change the answer.
Yes, it most definitely is!
> Just because someone might conclude that advice is wrong, does that mean family members are out of bounds for giving that advice?
No. But "just" because your "advice" is completely unsubstantiated, which you would notice if you cared to exercise a minimum of skepticism, that does mean that giving that advice is out of bounds.
The equivalent of pushing religion is not "breast feeding is healthy", the equivalent is "you should not vaccinate because that causes autism". Outright bullshit is not the same thing as possibly not 100% perfectly reliable science.
> Or that people shouldn’t have to graciously accept it?
We are obviously talking about a situation where someone in the family has made a conscious decision to leave the religion behind. That is obviously not a situation where they should be expected to graciously accept any further pestering on religion, because that is obviously overstepping a known boundary of that person.
(Note that that is different from trying to talk to them about religion, where there is genuine interest in understanding their position, rather than just the intent to convince them to come back--that is perfectly fine as long as the person does not explicitly state otherwise.)
Kids are nobody's property, and parent absolutely have the right to ignore the rest of the family as long as they observe the laws of the land.
It's the majority view where I live (European Union) and it is also the law here, and there is little reason to think that this will change in the foreseeable future, so pretty relevant to me, I would say.
> and which will become even less relevant as Asians, Africans, Chinese, Latin Americans, and Indians rise to cultural and economic dominance.
Why does there have to be "dominance"? Can't we all just get along and respect each other? Including our children?
Legal rules don't exist in a void, they usually originate from social norms. Of course, social norms evolve, and so do laws.
> Is your family or community entitled to tell you you’re raising your children wrong,
Entitled? Of course not.
> and must you graciously accept that criticism?
Must? No. It is wise of me to consider the criticism of those that earned my respect, as well as it is wise of those whose respect I earned to consider mine. But again, respect is earned. My parents were very nice to me and deserve all of my respect, but unfortunately I have witnessed many situations were parents do not deserve the respect of their children. It's not an automatic status that comes from procreating.
> In almost the entire world, including much of Eastern Europe, the answer is “yes.”
Also in my own culture (Southern Europe) until not so long ago. I know of cases of children being driven to suicide because of such norms. No thanks, I prefer the new norms here.
> That is the better answer.
That is your opinion, but if you care to provide an actual argument I am willing to listen.
> The places where that answer is not true are not only a minority, but are declining in cultural significance. (Arguably, the dead-end detour into a highly individualistic culture is partly responsible for that decline.)
You seem to be obsessed with the collapse of western culture. I'm not sure what this even means. We are all confronting a global existential crisis (climate change), perhaps time to let go of these petty conflicts?
As parents we have legal custody of our children while they’re minors, but we can lose it.
I believe that children are not cattle, and I would keep believing that even if 100% of everyone else thought otherwise.
(“Community property” is a legal concept in the US where assets belong to both spouses simultaneously, with each spouse having a full, undivided interest. The metaphor is to express that family and the community has an interest in each child, not that children are property.)
But there's also a subtext here, which is that there's a distinction to be made between good-faith, substantive parenting critiques and externally-mandated arbitrary critiques. If there's institutional pressure to ostracize former members of a community, that's problematic. I think you probably have to acknowledge that subtext to really engage on this topic --- which, who could blame anyone for not wanting to really engage on religion on HN?
I’m not sure, in 2020, I agree. I’m sensitive to the issue. The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death. But I don’t begrudge all the Pakistani cab drivers who try to convert me. They believe they’re doing me a favor. (I’m never the one to bring it up obviously. It always arises awkwardly when I mention that I’m from Bangladesh and then they assume I’m Muslim.)
Leaving religion out of it — nobody has a right to be accepted by a community. In a free society people can leave, but can they really demand a particular sort of treatment?
This is every family, with slight variation.
Maybe it's harsher and more serious. We were able to just ignore them and "that's just the way they are" type thing.
This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms with members doesn't mean anything. Statements like these generally do no good for anyone, and only further radicalize opposing views instead of urging people to engage in an meaningful discussion.
Any shunning I have seen was due to other factors than merely leaving, such as the reasons behind leaving (one of my cousins was shunned for drug dealing and running from the law, not for leaving).
The Mormon church has a lot of experience with people leaving and appears to handle it pretty well in general. Of course leaving a religion is a hard and often agonizing decision and is painful personally, and people sometimes project these feelings onto others.
Here is a comment where I detail the organizational trends that I believe justify my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22276276
Any time I've heard of someone wishing not to be contacted, I've seen members of the church respect that desire. Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). Instead of looking to criticize, please try to understand that people are usually just trying to be friendly and respectful, even if it doesn't always seem that way.
This is only true to the extent that the church is extremely efficient at tracking down ex-members and sharing this information with local congregations and extremely inefficient at remembering that people have requested multiple times with multiple authorities never to be contacted again.
People are visited by members of the church, acting as members of the church, introducing themselves as representatives of the church, visiting an address given to them by the church, and asking for a person they've never met by name, at an address the person has recently moved to after leaving the church. Again, I've witnessed this firsthand, in front of my own eyes.
Think of the effort it takes to pull that off. It's not an innocent oopsie.
If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), then this simply could not have happened, at least not in the name of the church. I've seen firsthand what happens to a congregation's records when someone removes their name (no surprise - their name, address, etc are removed from the list, and there's no conspiracy of tracking people behind their backs as you seem to imply).
That said, it's certainly possible that someone was operating on old data or otherwise mistaken (maybe the person visiting just asked another neighbor about the person who lived there, not knowing the history, but trying to be friendly?), but I can assure you that the church would not give someone a name and address of an ex-member who's had their name removed from the records.
ADDED: To respond to a couple of replies here: I suspect the church's central records (in SLC) may retain some data about ex-members (I have no firsthand experience there one way or another) - at least where permissible by local privacy laws, but I've dealt with records at the congregation level for years (which is what missionaries or other members would use to contact someone), and I can definitively say that ex-members' info is removed from those records (not just marked as "inactive" or otherwise). Does that mean you will never be contacted by a member of the church again in your life? Absolutely not (for reasons explained above that have nothing to do with the church's records). You will have the same chance of being contacted by a well-meaning member or missionary as anyone else in your vicinity (which is more than many people realize).
This is the issue. The names don't get removed. Everyone that leaves is just "inactive". Tell me you don't see that. Tell me you don't see people talking about how to get them active again. Because I've been to a lot of wards and seen that discussion in every single one. "They are just inactive".
I've told members to their face that I left, and they have responded "oh, you you're inactive?" I guess not attending church for over a decade and having a bad taste in my mouth isn't leaving, it is inactive.
We don't do this in normal society. If you stop showing up to play sports with your friends, you aren't considered a team member anymore. Especially after you tell them "I don't want to be on the team anymore." How would you feel if everyone on that team just kept saying "oh, they're just taking a break. They'll come back." You know, decades after you left...
I don't see that. If they're removed, they're removed, at least from any lists that local leaders, members or missionaries could see.
This is exactly the kind of dishonest bullshit line that local leaders use when people ask to be removed and not contacted again. I don't know how these "lists" work internally in the church, but local leaders can happily say, "Sure, we'll remove you from the list. Done! No more visits!" knowing that they haven't done what the person requested, knowing that the church will continue to send people to that person's home, even if they move hundreds of miles away. They believe this is the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do for a believing Mormon, which is why it's so important to call it out in public. The only way they will back off from this kind of behavior is if it harms the public image of the church.
When someone says "I'm out of here" you don't follow them around the country, calling them by name "Hey, so are you ready to come back?" To put it in other words "No means no." following people around like that is harassment and borderline stalking.
It comes down to what you're specifically asking. If you ask a local leader to remove you from a list, they may remove you from (for example) a local list of members who are open to being visited. That list would not represent your membership record in the church. In most cases, the removal from a local list like that is both appropriate and what the person actually expects (after all, it's not like your contact info was obtained from a spam list or something; you would have to have been baptized in the church, professed to believe in the church's doctrines, voluntarily consented to being a member, provided personal data, etc, so a retraction of all that is a relatively serious decision).
On the other hand, if you want to remove your record from the church as a whole (the entire organization), you'd need to be clear about that with your bishop (local leader), and they are instructed to give you details about how to go about removing your record from church headquarters.
If you asked specifically about removing your record completely, and a bishop didn't tell you how to do that, that would be a (frustrating) mistake, and I believe that leader should be corrected (it's in their handbook of instructions). It's rare enough that some leaders may just not be as familiar with the process.
In either case, it sounds like you had a bad experience with that, and your frustration is understandable. People in similar situations have been very vocal about that kind of thing, but I know that in the majority of cases (many that I've seen firsthand), those kinds of mistakes are rare and local leaders will help however they can.
EDIT: The line about you volunteering information (or your parents doing so on your behalf) isn't meant to place blame, but rather to simply point out that significant, deliberate effort was put into creating your record in the church. In that light, it would be crazy for a local leader or member to knock on your door, hear you say "remove me from your list", and interpret that as full authorization to remove your record completely. You certainly have the freedom to do that, but an offhanded remark at the door isn't really appropriate for that level of action.
This is exactly how my friend was treated at every step of the way. They pretended that she hadn't actually asked for the right thing in the right way. It's shameful. She asked over and over not to be contacted ever again, by anyone, by any part of the church, in any locality. And to this day, people just like you pretend that it couldn't have happened that way, that she must have done something wrong.
"Gaslighting" is a word that I think is used way too lightly these days, but that's what the church did to her. It started before she left and was the reason she left. Every time she talked to people inside the church about the things that were happening to her, the reaction was, "Are you sure it didn't actually happen this other way?" They rejected her story of what happened and believed their own version instead.
> those kinds of mistakes are rare and local leaders will help however they can
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that even you can even pretend to believe that without it hurting a little bit.
Those stories should be heard, and there absolutely needs to be transparency. It does come with the side effect of making those cases sound disproportionately "typical", when they really aren't. I've never experienced or known a victim of abuse in the church (that I know of), but it does break my heart to hear about it happening, and I would encourage people to speak up when it does happen (especially to higher-up leaders who can do something about it).
Bad people slip through the cracks (as they do in any organization). It's unfortunate, but the church is doing a lot to help prevent those wrongs and mistakes. I absolutely still stand with my assertion that "mistakes are rare and local leaders will help however they can".
> I don't know anyone - inside or outside the church - who would think that's okay
Nobody who was complicit in how she was treated ever decided it was okay or would have stood by the reality of what happened. All they did was have enough faith in the church to feel sure that the actual situation must have been different from the way she described it. That's how virtually every around her felt (or pretended to feel,) not just a few miscreants who slipped through the cracks. Even her parents. They retreated into a fog of believing they didn't know what happened. They had faith that if they heard the complete truth it would vindicate the church, so to this day they believe they haven't heard the truth about what happened yet.
*at 8
Remember, you get baptized __at 8__. If you're a male, you get the priesthood at __12__. You're talking about consent and volunteering that information. There's a reason we legally don't allow people that young to give consent. The way you are framing this conversation to me is rather disgusting. You are saying that it is my fault that the church has my information. The church has my information because __I was born into it__. Yeah, I believed at 8. I even believed at 16.
This also doesn't explain how the church has continually had my address as I've moved hundreds of miles across the country multiple times. And the issue is that every time these missionaries come I tell them I don't want to be contacted. I've talked to several bishops about being removed. They all said I won't be contacted. Then I move, and it starts over. So forgive me if I feel like I'm being stalked. I know many ex members who share this experience.
So if you agree that we should be removed, don't blame us. Maybe, instead, there is a systematic problem. Because as it stands, every time a missionary knocks on my door saying "Brother Godelski", I hate the church a little more. I don't blame missionaries. They are welcome to food, water, and to use my bathroom (they have a tough job). But I tell them there is no teaching (and I don't try to pressure them out either).
So what do I do? Do I be hostile to the messenger? (I don't have that in me) Because this has been happening for over a decade, over 4 states, and over a dozen residences. So forgive me if I don't take your message lightly. I don't know how to be more clear.
Edit (in response to your edit):
> In that light, it would be crazy for a random hometeacher/ministering member to knock on your door, hear you say "remove me from your list", and interpret that as full authorization to remove your record completely.
To me, this sounds crazy. No means no. No does not mean maybe. No means no. If someone wants to call me and say "Hey, the missionaries said that you wanted to be removed from the records, is that true?" I'd be okay with that. But saying that "no means maybe" is spitting in the face of those trying to leave.
Local leaders don't have direct control over the removal of someone's membership record, and that's a reasonable safeguard against local leaders/members (deliberately or accidentally) performing such a significant action on behalf of potentially hundreds of other members. Most companies operate under similar safeguards when it comes to data security and deletion requests (requiring some kind of procedure rather than hearing you just say the magic words "delete my account" and not even verifying your identity). I imagine the church is legally required to keep some of that data for tax and reporting purposes, so it's not quite as straightforward as it might sound.
Under GDPR most companies have a button you can press. Sure, might stay cached for 90 days or whatever, but essentially you are just telling them. There are ones harder, where you have to email them (like going to a Bishop...). The worst are that you have to verify your identity with legal document.
And I'm not saying the church doesn't have to expunge all records of you existing within their institution. I just want something akin to a Do Not Call list. Right now I feel that the church respects me just as much as the telemarketer that I ask to take me off their list (they're legally required to btw, but they usually don't. I worked in one of these centers, they tell you to ignore "customers" like that).
Occasionally missionaries might receive a request to locate an inactive member whose active family doesn't know where to find them (I only saw this once in two years, and nobody involved seemed to take a moment to think about the bigger picture of what they were doing).
There are personal info data brokers e.g. Acxiom. Maybe the church is incorporating such sources when tracking down "lost" members.
I've seen that too, though as I understand it, those only come from (standard membership) records that are moved from a previous ward (not removed) and the leadership doesn't know which new ward the person should geographically belong to (they might only have a rough geographic idea). The intention is one of trying to help provide assistance and support to people who are - at least in terms of the official records - still members of the church. That won't happen with people whose records have been officially removed from the church.
As for a "notebook of paper records", unfortunately there's very little that can be done to completely avoid inaccuracies in those, but the church has been working to make more of those things happen electronically (which would solve the issue of not being synchronized). It may not be in place everywhere, but that's the direction it's going, so it will definitely improve.
How can you keep doubting that this happens consistently and by design? When my friend connected online with other people who left the church, she heard lots of stories identical to hers. They're not crazy people. They're just people who wanted to leave the church.
You're getting downvoted because both can be true.
How would you feel if your closest friends and/or family stopped talking to you because of how they voted? Or if they didn't stop talking, if they only talked about how you voted wrong (you know, basically Thanksgiving dinner but more frequently). What people miss is their friends and family. And in the end, do you really want a friendship back if you were only friends because you shared the same religion? That's what these people are saying. I say that as someone who went through it.
As far as the missionary problem, dkarl explained that pretty well.
(I also detailed some of my leaving in hopes that it helps others)
I have always rejected all attempts to "re-activate" me. I have never provided notice of my leaving, and I have never as much as attended church once in any of these locations. Several of the moves I didn't even leave forwarding addresses or change of address at the post office. Heck about a year ago I missed some important documents from the IRS, because even they didn't know my new address. They were contacting a previous address, yet the Mormon church had already visited me (against my requests) a total of three times at that new address.
The Mormon church in fact does encourage harassment of ex members, they just don't advertise it as harassment. I am assuming the top comment in this feed that claims they never promote harassment is probably from a current member. The church promotes and encourages members to visit ex-members "out of love" to "save them". It even goes as far as assigning certain members to "re-activate" specific lost members as a task or chore that they must report back progress on.
So the members are harassing, but they do it under the guise of "love" and "salvation". The leaders of the church teach this twice a year in their worldwide broadcast conference (General Conference) where they tell stories (generally fictitious but claiming to be true-to-life) about how active members have gone to ex-members' homes and pushed and prodded for months and years to get members to re-activate. They will hail these persistent efforts to ignore the privacy requests of the ex-members and to push them even despite threats, because according to the story it eventually worked. They will laugh and say that "the spirit" will eventually get through to these ex-members if you just push them hard enough. This is all harassment. Yes, it is done naively from brainwashed members who think they are helping, but it is indeed harassment.
Imagine breaking up with a significant other who then continues to say they know you were meant for each other. They keep showing up at your work and at your house trying to get you to fall back in love with them. They are convinced that if they insert themselves back into your life that you will feel that love again. But you want nothing to do with this person. That person feels like they are doing something out of love, but to you it is harassment.
I've watched countless families destroyed over mormonism. It is toxic, but in the most crafty ways possible. Looking back, I did it all. I harrassed exmembers and gained pleasure from it. I thought I was truly helping them. We would laugh afterward at the threats we got. It was harrassement but I did it... i was brainwashed without realizing it. I am sick to my stomach for admitting it, but I was guilty of these acts for 30 years. My perspective has changed with many years out of the church. But trust me, it is part of the Mormon culture. I speak from experience. I am guilty of harrassing hundreds of people against their will as a Mormon.
Further, it is worth noting that according to Mormon doctrine, someone who is an active member and leaves the church is "an apostate". Depending how far they went through the ladder of Mormonism (such as going through the temple or even working at the temple) this actually destines someone to a future life in "outer darkness". This is a place reserved for basically only apostates (people that left the church). The mormon church has even taught terrorists and hitler will be able to seek forgiveness in the next life and go to a lower form of heaven, but not as low as outer darkness. This literally puts people who leave the church as worse than mass murderers.
> The mormon church has even taught terrorists and hitler will be able to seek forgiveness in the next life and go to [the Telestial Kingdom [0]], but not as low as outer darkness.
For those that think this is hyperbole (though I heard you only went to outer darkness [Hell] if you had active proof of god and rejected him), I have heard the exact same teachings and have never lived in any of the states jacurtis mentioned. This belief is also why when you're a Mormon, you feel the need to save those that left.
[0] (this says that those that leave are on the __same__ level as mass murders) https://www.mormonwiki.com/Celestial,_Terrestrial,_and_Teles...
My actual understanding, having grown up in the church, is that ex-members would actually go to the Terrestial Kingdom (tier 2). Though it depends on how you interpret "rejecting the gospel". The distinction depends on if I rejected the gospel or was a good person who was blinded by the evils of the world. The church is a little vague on the subject and I can easily understand an interpretation of ending up in the Tellestial Kingdom (tier 3). It can entirely be interpreted that I rejected the gospel and so am placed into the same category as mass murderers.
In my upbringing it was taught that the only people that went to hell were those that outright rejected the gospel with knowledge, so that puts a lower bound. See Doctrine and Covenants 76[0].
[0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-test...
Side note: You can only get into the Celestial Kingdom (tier 1) if you accept the Mormon doctrine while on Earth (there are also 3 subdivisions of the Celestial Kingdom that you can move through within the afterlife, but you are not able to move kingdoms).
I'm not trying to make the point that there isn't pressure on people to stay in the church. I know nothing whatsoever about the LDS church. People that say there's pressure, I believe them. I'm just making a nerdy theological point about "Hitler-salvation" as a threshold.
This just isn’t true that you have to be a Mormon on the Earth to receive the highest degree. We believe you have to have a body to receive your ordinances, but there’s a reason people visit the Temple after they have done their own ordinances and covenants and that is, so they can do temple work and baptisms for those who have passed, and they do this as proxies for the deceased much like Paul taught baptisms for the dead(1 Corinthians 15:29).
> It can entirely be interpreted that I rejected the gospel and so am placed into the same category as mass murderers.
That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad place though. (Also if you choose to never accept Christ until the final resurrection then that’s your choice, but I don’t think you’re doomed to it). Here’s a quote from that D&C 76 about the tier 3 as you called it or the telestial as it’s called there:
> 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial , which surpasses all understanding;
> 90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.
So, the glory itself exceeds all understanding it reminds me a lot of 1 Corinthians 2 particularly 9 & 10.
> 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
> 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
I think we’ll all come to see God’s and Christ’s great mercy at the Judgement seat.
I left and told my wife I was going to but still it's been a bit of a stressor in our relationship, but I couldn't no longer be part of such a malicious organization that causes so many suicides inside the state of Utah and has such a horrific history of racism.
I knew at 13 I did not believe and didn't want to follow but was forced to continue attending and forbidden to speak about my lack of belief to siblings. Come 18 I was suggested to move out which I happily did. My father sort of eventually accepted but would try to slip in religious sermons when he could. My mother on the other hand freaked completely out. Parents took all pictures of me down in the house leaving pictures of siblings. They gave a piece of property my non-Mormon grandfather left me to my brother with my mother calling and explaining they were doing this because I had left the church and she had never forgiven her mother and brother from leaving. Pretty rough but I got over it. Luckily I never built much social identity around the church so that was less of an issue. Also I left young and at 18 who cares what your parents think because they are stupid anyway :).
I don't think ostracism or social punishment is official policy but it is there in practice and likely very pronounced for some people.
I still have a sister and brother who are very and irrationally hostile towards me but the other siblings are friendly enough and seem ok. I don't talk about church nor discourage their belief, I simply don't participate. Mom never did get over it and we were never close again until her death. Sometimes she would call me saying crazy things but I didn't hate or resent her for it, I understand where they are coming from, in my belief they are mistaken and deluded and behaving improperly but hey people do that in many venues.
I felt like my leaving was a threat to a carefully constructed fragile synthetic narrative for people close to me who chose to remain. Even though I never actually argued against nor condemned the religion.
I suppose I should feel worse about the whole incident but what I really feel is a sort of pity. Like someone would feel for an alcoholic or drug addict desperately rationalizing their destructive behavior. I don't hate the church nor resent the behavior of family members. I understand, besides what they think has little bearing on my world at this point. Very happy I left early though. I imagine the process as an adult married with kids even is quite an emotional slap. I don't want to tell others what to do. If people are happy claiming to believe those things I'm ok with it. But I won't do any such thing even if it means social problems.
Every time we see my parents they say goodbye as if it's the last time they'll see us. They continue to speak as if we're still participating in the church, and they cry every time my brother, who lives 3 hours away, leaves to go home.
A month ago my parents' church sent my brother a letter threatening him with damnation if he didn't return to Christianity and guilting him for not following in his parents religion. It then suggested he would be excommunicated (which has specific meaning in the denomination, it's not exactly shunning) if he didn't tell them where he was attending, or he could resign. It was sent as registered mail, and written in a way that was meant to be humiliating. My brother wrote back that he happily resigned.
I expect at some point I might receive the same communication. In the Reformed church this is both old and new. The idea of excommunication had existed since before the church came over from Europe. But in recent times churches have found it a useful, quasi-legal way to enforce conformity and allegiance. If that environment is as totalizing a force in your life as the church intends to be, you will find it very difficult to leave. That threat will worry you. But once you've left it often just feels hurtful and vindictive. It doesn't have the reformative effect it is intended to effect.
A lot of people are trying to counter this. As an ex-Mormon I do want to share my experience. Not for the people of Hacker News, but because I know this issue is hard to talk about and I want others to know that they aren't alone.
I first off, do want to start with that I was a true believer. I was winning seminary competitions and happy to defend my love for god. But then my mom died. This was terrible in itself, but my dad quickly remarried and did so to a grade A manipulator. I would talk to my best friends about the issues and ended up actually staying over at these friends several nights because of the issues with that step-parent (she did a lot of horrible things, but this story isn't about her or my family). My friends' parents, who were Mormon, were very aware of what was going on. My dad actually stopped me from seeing these friends and so they kinda just faded away (I am no longer friends with these people today, sadly). But then in class (Mormons have 3 parts when you go to church, I will say class for non-major-congregation stuff for ease) I started to question things. Why was there no steel found in the Americas? Elephants? These maps don't make sense. Why don't we pray to our heavenly mother? And it just grew and grew. Some answers I got back were nonsensical, some were "have faith", others were down right misogynistic. So I stopped showing up. This caused a lot of contention in my family of course, one that hasn't fully healed to this day. But after a few weeks something interesting started to happen. The bullies (who were Mormon) who would pick on me, started inviting me to their houses (the popular kids in my school were Mormon, no I didn't grow up in Utah). It only took going once to realize that I was there because of the parents. All kinda of people would start reaching out to me. When I told them of the abuse that was going on, they all told me that it was part of god's plan. Then rumors started and those same bullies were glad to let me know what their parents thought. I found an old journal (something Mormons are highly encouraged to keep but now I'm afraid to because it was definitely used against me) and I just thought that I believed for far too long. I believed even when I first stopped going. But I can't say that the church has the moral high ground.
So why did I leave? It wasn't so much the nonsensical parts of the scriptures. It was because the people were willing to stand by and watch abuse. They preached all day about how we need to help one another but they would only do it if it was easy (like giving food to a needy member). They protected that abuse and then they participated in it. That is why I left.
In addition, I want to add that the church does have some pretty messed up believes. I do believe that the OP's comment is true even for those that left more easily (which does not seem to be as common).
Growing up with these beliefs is hard to undo. I grew up going to stake events. Would spend summers at several family members (while mom was sick). Went to church camp. I constantly saw these beliefs reinforced over and over, __it was not just my ward.__ The way women and people of color were treated like second class citizens. The toxic masculinity that they taught (we each had our "place"). The foundation of secrets always reminded me of the Romulans. How the church treats gays. How the church talks about non-members behind their back (I know, "Mormons are the nicest people!" Please stop saying this). And when you leave, they follow. I left over a decade ago, have moved all across the country, and this is the first year missionaries have not shown up at my door (and I'm guessing that's because I occasionally play boardgames with a member, who knows my distaste).
They say that the difference between a religion and a cult is that a cult is that a cult has a charismatic leader or living prophet and participates in brainwashing and abuse. I am not afraid to say that a spade is a spade.
And to those that left or are thinking of leaving. It is hard, but I promise you that it is worth it. Reach out to others that have left (you are welcome to reach out to me). And for the love of god, talk. I know we were taught to keep these feelings to ourselves, and really we had to, but please do find someone that you can open up to. It is healthier and freeing to just be you. You are not alone.
In case you're wondering if I really quit the mormon church: note that I'm still calling them mormons when the mormons stopped calling themselves mormons. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/16/lds-church-wants-ever...
Edit: and if you're wondering if I really graduated college - I have no idea where my diploma is and if I've ever seen it. I owed the school a few hundred bucks and didn't get it when I walked, but perhaps I got it when I paid off my account - I don't remember.
Of course, there's for-profit colleges which provide terrible value at an outrageous cost, and even among "legit" universities or courses of study have more value than others. And back at the topic there's real questions about a church that's acquired assets on the scale the LDS church has. What transparency obligations does it have to the membership that contributed those funds? Should there be dues/tithing, or show the assets function as an endowment to support the activities of the institution while mitigating what members are asked to contribute? If an institution claims divine authority and also reaches the point where it no longer requires contributions in order to sustain it, does that mean it can be more careless with the confidence of those members (and if not, what would prevent that)?
That phrase means there was no love in the first place so nothing was lost. Is that what you meant?
I think this was the role of the Council of Fifty, which as been defunct for a long time. The last known member, President of the Church Heber J. Grant, died in 1945.
1. Spend less than you take in. 2. Save/invest a portion of what you bring in for a rainy day.
Thus over a hundred years that builds up. I'm a Mormon and personally don't have an issue with it as I know that wealth doesn't go to church leaders (they all get the same stipend which for many is less than they made in their professional lives) and is simply fund available to the Church for times of need.
Assuming the countless anecdotes on /r/exmormon are to be believed, nobody really gets a choice. Your local leaders will browbeat you and try to look over your financials if they don’t feel you are tithing appropriately.
You're right that people who have had "meh" experiences don't tend to talk about it online. What is it about being mormon that makes exmormons so bitter, in comparison to more benign religions? Try reading the subreddit and you'll find out.
It may simply be the case that Mormons are more tech-savvy as a group than Christians as a whole and thus they gravitate to online communities.
The largest ex religion communities online (former scientologists, mormons, JWs, adventists, and muslims, in my experience) all have a few things in common. They are from religions with significant control over your life when you are a member, and significant pain and anguish when you decide to leave. For some, that may mean losing your family and friends and professional colleagues (as I have). For others (such as scientologists), that may mean lots of harassment and legal difficulties. For others (such as muslims), that may mean being put to death.
I have no qualms with calling /r/exmormon a very bitter community. We're bitter...with lots of reason to be so. This isn't anything like giving bad reviews on twitter...this is a very active community of thousands of people who have had very negative impacts on their lives due to their association with a religion that controlled large parts of it. They're trying to cope in the only way they know how, by commiserating.
I would say that that should be a very valuable source of information to anybody who is investigating a religion. Sure, if you ask a question, you're going to get very biased answers. But they aren't one off problems, and they aren't dismissible simply because they're bitter.
If this happens it's against church policy. At the end of each year your Bishop asks if you are a full tithe payer or not. They record your answer and that's it.
However, if they have any suspicion that you're lying about it, prepare for the guilt trip of the century. You do want to live with your family in the celestial kingdom, right? You wouldn't lie to god, would you?
Effectively they take advantage of the beliefs they taught you. It doesn't matter that they don't subpoena your tax returns...its coercive all the same.
Not all exmembers are disgruntled. The ones that aren't disgruntled don't hang out in /r/exmormon.
It's like distilling all of the people in the world who had a bad experience with the police to /r/fthecops and then using anecdotes in there to make assumptions about all police.
Or using anecdotes in /r/atheism to make assumptions about all religion.
And yet people like you constantly come along and want to categorize me as simply a "disgruntled exmember" with no opinion worth listening to, for the mere fact that I still participate in conversations about it online and in person with people who have had similar experiences as mine. This is a perfect characterization and example of what people who leave the church have to deal with. Even I, who never had it badly in the church, and was able to leave without too much drama from the local ward, will be labeled as an untrustworthy disgruntled apostate the moment I try to give a different perspective on this organization I was heavily invested in for decades. Online communities like /r/exmormon have a very large portion of people like me who have not had bad experiences in the church or leaving the church, but yet still have plenty to talk about for what should be obvious reasons.
And who are the people whose opinions we should trust about the Mormon church? Why obviously the believing Mormons of course. Trust the people who have been taught and trained consistently their entire lives to be "member missionaries" and put the best possible spin on their church to outsiders. They're not disgruntled, so therefore their opinion matters more. Trust the used car dealer to make the most honest assessment of the car they're selling.
Well, the problem is that reasonable people like you get drowned out and dominated by the people on there that just want to vent or otherwise have an axe to grind. Sometimes I'll pop by just so see what's on the front page and I'll be disappointed to see memes dancing on the graves of dead people (anytime a general authority dies).
It would be like a moderate liberal claiming that there are a "large portion" of other moderate liberals on /r/politics. Probably true, yet, /r/politics is dominated by the hard left, and you'll rarely see balanced viewpoints there; it's an anti-right echo chamber with zero nuance.
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but these effects are always much less obvious to the person making the comment than they are to many outside readers.
You are the moderator here, and so ultimately what you say is the law on this forum. I can respect that, and I like that you're active here. Moderation in a discussion community is invaluable. I'm disappointed that you have read into my comment antagonism and anger, and I cannot agree with the assessment.
I didn't mean to read anger into your comment. What I'm concerned about is how such comments land with other people who happen to be reading the thread. When there are well-known patterns of provocation in a comment which are likely to trigger others and lead to a predictable flamewar, that's flamebait, and it needs to be avoided for fire safety reasons.
There are ways to express your views and to disagree without being gratuitously provocative, so it's not the case that any disagreement would get moderated in this way. But to reach that requires being willing to hear where the gratuitous provocations are, learn from that information and adapt.
It applies perfectly well to Mormonism. If you had only trusted me to tell you about my religion when I was a missionary for 2 years in South America convincing people to become Mormon, you would have gotten a very whitewashed and carefully selected story. This is not because I intentionally deceived people. It was not out of self-interested deception. It was because I felt it important to my God-sent mission that people learn to love the church so that they can be baptized. There were so many facts that hadn't been taught to me, and in addition there were plenty of facts that I didn't see necessary to teach people.
You think I'm demonizing my own people and myself when I use the used car dealer metaphor? That is simply an incorrect and strangely motivated interpretation of what I said.
In my now 50+ year experience, the ONLY time tithing has ever been brought up is at the end of the year when the bishop asks if I’ve been a full tithe payer. I say “No,” and he writes that down on the little paper and then we’re done. I’ve never been browbeaten or had anybody look over my financials. I’ve never been extorted or ridiculed. I’m not saying that some misguided bishop somewhere hasn’t done that to members of his congregation. I just know it isn’t church policy and isn’t something I’ve ever experienced.
...and then he withdraws your temple recommendation, because that privilege is only reserved for full tithe payers. If he doesn't, he's going against church policy, and letting you off the hook nicely. Congrats, you won the local leader lottery.
Also, as other people have mentioned, /r/exmormon isn't exactly a representative sample of exmormons. It was useful to me as someone who was questioning my faith and later dealing with family as I was leaving the church, but now that I'm in a healthy place, there's no reason for me to spend time there and I haven't been on in years. That's pretty common, and the end result is that the majority of long-time active posters are people who've been out for years but are still bitter/angry/whatever and need that outlet.
It's weird how much this is being repeated in this thread. It's clear this opinion didn't form on an individual level but rather is directed by the church to their followers to repeat. It's an odd way of justifying position is all.
And the stipend is 6-figures per year (most members don't know this though, it was leaked a few times now on paystubs). But all travel and room is also paid for. Plus most leaders of the church that receive this stipend are 70+ years old, so they are already living off healthy retirements in addition to now free housing and a healthy stipend. Church leaders are all successful businessman, doctors, and lawyers. Basically you pay your way to the top. So all of these people have incredible riches before they start taking these stipends.
Church members like to pretend like our leaders are scraping by... but they are in top 1% of income earners. Further, you should hear those same leaders talk about tithing to members. Even encouraging their poor members to pay up because "they can't afford not to".
It should also be noted that the church pays these top leaders, but chooses not to pay anyone at the congregation level. From the bishop (equivilant to a Pastor in most other religions), to the people teaching sunday school, the people cleaning the buildings, the bookkeepers, etc are all asked to do it for free. These are generally lower-income or middle-income members with full time jobs, asked to do this in addition to normal jobs... oh and they have to pay 10% of their pre-tax income to the church that they make from their job.
> No bishop [aka 'Pastor'], no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of “They can’t afford to” needs to be replaced with “They can’t afford not to.”
That quote is direct from their official prophet.
Source: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference...
Note: If you click that link you will see that the title is "Tithing - A commandment even for the destitute", this man had the hairy balls to stand up with a straight face and say that no one is too poor to pay his church. While he flies private jets everywhere from these poor family's sacrifices.
One more argument for AI overlord.
Or, perhaps, to finance a massive interstellar spaceship a few hundred years from now... [0]
(In my ideal reality this should be the goal of _all_ investment funds. Also, everyone who enjoys the higher levels of the Mohs Scale of Science Fiction Hardness [1] should watch The Expanse.)
[0] https://observer.com/2015/12/the-expanse-recap-1x04-mormon-s...
[1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScien...
In addition this is the official response of the Church in reply to an almost identical story that ran not too long ago https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presi...
Disclaimer: I’m an active Mormon.
A single human (not mentioning any names) having 100 billion seems crazy.
And 16 million members is fools' accounting. It doesn't account for the millions of people like me who don't go to church and yet are still members because I don't want to pay money to hire a lawyer to force the church to take my name off the records.
[0] https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-says-new-documents-l...
This $100B is one single fund that is a "secret" fund. It was collected by the church members donating to charity, but asking the church to allocate the funds. So this is in addition to all the other offerings a member is required to make (10% of pre-tax gross income). So the church took money promising to allocate it to charity, and the church members thought they were donating to charity, but the church instead siphoned it off and kept it for themselves in a secret fund that they denied existed. It took a whistleblower from within the fund's organization to reveal it to the public.
So this is in addition to normal money that the church has, or its real estates, or its hundreds of billions in other investments. This is actually a tiny slice of the pie, but it was collected maliciously and wasn't reported to the IRS.
I thought everybody assumed, since the church so frequently taught its members about prudent financial management, that the church itself was doing the same thing.
I've left the church, I have many criticisms of it, but I really don't have a problem with an organization taking the long view and accumulating a large enough reserve to survive on the interest. It's the same approach universities and other large nonprofits use. And it's not like it's particularly neglecting its present-day mission either. Probably is too stingy, though (e.g. using volunteers to clean buildings.)
Technically, legally, the current president of the Mormon church, Russel Nelson, has those 100 billion dollars, and everything else the church owns, because of its corporate structure.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-fina...
I don’t see any incongruity with a church that teaches its members to save to likewise have a large savings fund. It’s not like they’re just hoarding money: the Church actively donates billions of dollars to world-wide humanitarian projects. For a religion that believes in the second coming of Jesus Christ and a worldwide crisis preceding that, it only makes sense for them to save so that they can continue to aid people of and not of their faith during that time.
This is not true. Just tens of millions annually. Laughably small sum compared to $7 billion annually in tithes (in 2012).
Insight: Mormon church made wealthy by donations https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-mormons/insi...
How the Mormons Make Money- How the Mormon Church Makes Its Billions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-m...
>According to an official church Welfare Services fact sheet, the church gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid in more than 178 countries and territories during the 25 years between 1985 and 2010. A fact sheet from the previous year indicates that less than one-third of the sum was monetary assistance, while the rest was in the form of “material assistance.” All in all, if one were to evenly distribute that $1.3 billion over a quarter-century, it would mean that the church gave $52 million annually. A study co-written by Cragun and recently published in Free Inquiry estimates that the Mormon Church donates only about 0.7 percent of its annual income to charity; the United Methodist Church gives about 29 percent.
They even use volunteer work for for-profit enterprises.
I like how the Mormon church one-upped the Catholic church in this. The Catholic church sold indulgences, one-time absolutions for sin to fund their projects, but the Mormon church transformed it into a subscription service, for the low low fee of 10% of all your income forever.
I remember a while ago spending a few hours trying to dig some useful info. Of course there's not much online, and estimates range from 100s of B$ to something between 1 and 2 T$. Still credible.
The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia.
Really? I thought it was pretty obvious. They literally pass around a plate and millions of people around the world are expected to put in 10% of their salary. In addition they have been around forever so have a vast collection of property and priceless art etc.
The church in the USA receives funds from passing the plate, but European Catholic Churches historically receive their money from a voluntary church tax levied by the civil government, which is also not 10%.
Most parishes I’ve been to in the USA publish their weekly offering and from those numbers it’s pretty clear people are not putting in 10% of their salary. Maybe 1%?
There was also a lot of excess wealth accumulated during the Middle Ages but I believe much of it was seized by governments over the last 500 years, varying from countries like France that even seized ownership of the church buildings to various dissolutions of religious orders and monasteries in other countries.
Of course you can. Do you know whom that quote came from?
The website must cost millions to operate, yet is available for free.
Try taking a look at Family Search. It’s so cool.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB894240270899870000
https://www.jta.org/2009/10/27/united-states/jewish-charitie...
Plus they've been selling off buildings since they are such a maintenance suck.
But still, it's an amusing thought and I see no reason not to try :D
In most other churches if you don't get into heaven your afterlife really really really sucks. They tend to be very binary--eternity in paradise, or eternity of inconceivable torture and torment.
Mormon afterlife has four possible destinations: the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and the outer darkness.
The Celestial Kingdom corresponds with heaven of other Christian sects.
The outer darkness kind of corresponds to hell in that it is where Satan resides, but I don't know if it is a place to torment like it is in other sects.
It's pretty hard to get sent to the outer darkness. It's for people who know that God is real, and choose to go against Him. Note that this does not include people that are told about God and do not believe--it is people who receive a personal revelation that He exists and still reject it.
Those who are merely told about God and reject those teachings, but who were decent people get the Terrestrial Kingdom.
Those who don't qualify for that because they were not decent, such as liars, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc., get the Telestial Kingdom. They are resurrected and given an immortal physical body. No torment or torture...the Telestial Kingdom is supposed to be a very nice place to live out your now eternal physical life.
The Telestial Kingdom sounds acceptable to me, and I'd probably actually make it to the Terrestrial Kingdom if Mormonism turns out to be right.
So what's the case to convert to Mormonism, or for people raised Mormon to stick with it? With the churches with the binary paradise/infinite torture afterlife, a Pascal's Wager type argument might work, even if I think there is a low probability that the church is right.
With Mormonism, if I think that there is only a low probability that it is right, a Pascal's Wager approach can tell me to optimize for my mortal life.
Even if I decide that some sort of Christian or Christian offshoot must be correct, if I narrow it down to a list that includes Mormonism and one or more of the eternal damnation sects, another Pascal's Wager like argument would tell me to pick one of the eternal damnation sects.
There's a lot of reasons the church's teachings are good to believe in, but it's kinda useless if God isn't saying it's right if you know what I mean.
I grew up not believing in God at all. But when it came time, I asked God, if he existed, to give me an answer. And as best as I can interpret, he did.
So yeah, that's kinda why, if you wanted to know. The reasons are extra on top of the actual question if that makes any sense :p
Hope you're having a good day.
That being said, the whole point is that Jesus isn't trying to punish anyone, he just wants you to be as comfortable as possible, while meeting the demands of justice. What would be worse, the guilt of knowing you could have done better, or imposter syndrome of knowing you don't deserve to be in the presence of those who were more faithful?
Honestly, I find the binary nature of the afterlife of most religious traditions to be inconsistent with the idea of a merciful God. What does God get out of punishing you? Why would his love for you end just because you died? Is not getting baptized really bad enough to warrant eternal punishment?
I was looking up genealogy of my family and found my Aunt already added my great grandparents back in Poland. The church runs the website and offers it free of charge (https://www.familysearch.org/), you don't need to be a member to use it.
Another anecdote is Matz, creator of ruby is a member: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc
Also they make really nice music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY
On the subject of churches asking for tithes and donations - I've seen various denominations do it and never felt odd about it. Back in my hometown, our church was the ones doing outreach to help the local homeless and getting them back on their feet (not the city or country, that's for sure). This was the early 90s though.
Matthew 19:16-30 New International Version (NIV)[1]
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing
must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One
who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you
shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and
give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow
me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great
wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for
someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of
a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
“Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God
all things are possible.”
27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then
will there be for us?”
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when
the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will
also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother
or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as
much and will inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
[1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A16...
Now, ask yourself:
Do you need to abandon your family in order to leave it behind?
Will you lose love to your family, if you free yourself from the bounds of it?
Was his mother at his side, when he died?
Was Jesus was aware of kin-keyness?
Mankind's history is full with corruption by the family, the "folks", and similar peer pressures. One mustn't go the spiritual way: Just check out "Romeo and Juliet" vs. the two "Houses".
Though, I must admit, that I do not find this forum (or any internet forum at all) to be the right place to go deeper into such topics ;-)
You are correct that love of money and possessions is crucial concern as a Christian, and that Christians are taught to rely on the Lord for their day to day needs.
But ultimately it is the heart attitude towards money. Money is a resource like any other resource, such as time or people. You can be idolatrous about any resource, including money, but it isn't having the resource that is bad.
Anyone who is a true follower of Jesus would be willing to lose their wealth for his sake if necessary (just as it might be leaving family for the sake of being a Christian), but just having wealth isn't the problem.
And I'm not ranting against capitalism, I'm against this fairy tale idea that capitalism somehow magically brings freedom. Especially in America, it's become part of national pride, yet we've forgotten about boycotts and "voting with your wallet", so the system is largely directed by blind greed and powerful special interests.
One thing to understand about the LDS church is that the leadership is drawn from the membership, but is really really not representative of that membership. In order to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the highest leadership body in the church, you essentially have to have spent decades serving full-time as a church leader at lower levels. This means that all the members of the quorum are old men (and yes, they are all men - that's another discussion). We have been accused - correctly - of being a gerontocracy.
There are two implications of this. One is that on social issues, the church leadership lags the membership by at least a generation, usually two. Furthermore, the upper membership of the church leads by consensus, ideally unanimous consensus. It takes a long time to get more than a dozen people on the same page about almost anything, much less something like the theological implications of homosexuality (to name one topic of the day). This goes some way to explaining why the leadership keeps getting caught flat-footed when regarding issues of transparency, LGBTQ relations, race, and so on. They aren't the internet generation and it shows.
But it has a second implication as well. Church leadership often remembers and understands church history completely differently than the lay membership does. In particular, for this issue, in the early part of the 20th century the church nearly went bankrupt. They ended up calling several people with strong business backgrounds to the Quorum of the Twelve, and one of those went on to become President. They managed to put the church's finances on a firm foundation. For obvious reasons, none of this tends to get discussed in Sunday School, and most of the membership of the church no longer remembers it. But the leadership most certainly does. In addition, it led to more and more church leaders having business backgrounds instead of pastoral care backgrounds, and as a consequence they tend to view achieving a good ROI on "the Lord's money" as being a primary good. I personally disagree, but it is what it is.
Next, one thing to note is that none of the church leadership is personally getting rich off of tithing funds. The leadership draws a salary; that salary lets them live comfortably, but it isn't 7 figures. Nobody lives in a mansion or flies a private jet. So, then, why are they sitting on an enormous cash pile? In my personal opinion, it isn't primarily about the money. It's primarily about increasing commitment to the institution. Paying tithing is "faith promoting". It gives the membership skin in the game. They aren't just showing up to a church building for two hours on Sunday. They're actively participating in building the Kingdom of God.
Of course, you can take the phrase "commitment to the institution" two different ways, depending on your going-in assumptions. For the faithful, building the faith of the membership is a primary good and indeed a principal goal of God. For the skeptical it looks like brainwashing with a nice side benefit of extra cash in the coffers.
The next obvious question is, even if you're one of the faithful, and you assume that paying tithing is indeed a good way of building a faith community, can't they come up with ways of using the money that are more in line with Christ's teachings than buying up 2% of Florida? And I wholeheartedly agree. There are. And, of course, owning large tracts of real estate and a mall in downtown Salt Lake City and your own private securities investment firm don't make a lot of sense if nobody in the leadership is living like a sheik. So why not spend all of (or at least a lot more of) that cash on charitable works? Why not just go in and rebuild Haiti, or cure cancer, or something?
And I honestly don't know. I go back to the leadership's business background and their recollection of the church nearly going bankrupt, and I can sort of see it... but then I read the Sermon on the Mount, and I can't again. I have to chalk it up to a lack of imagination, combined with a loss of pastoral care instincts in the church leadership.
For what it's worth, I think it will change... eventually. The time constant of change in the LDS church is something like 20 years, so don't expect it to happen tomorrow.
Finally, for those of you who have left the church and felt like it tried to take your dignity when you left, I'm sorry. My wife left, and that wasn't our experience. Your experience with the church is almost completely due to the culture and local leadership in your local congregation, and in a lot of cases that can be quite good, but it can also be fairly toxic if you're unlucky. I've experienced both, but more of the former. Of course, my experiences don't help you if yours are different. I hope you find your peace.
The church’s yearly operating expenses are somewhere in the neighborhood of $7B. Add another $7B on top of that for feeding the membership in a Great Depression situation, and add a loss of 50% of your investments due to the stock market crash, and some loss of liquidity due to market turmoil, and a significant loss of tithing income due to that same downturn, and $100B isn’t that far off the right number.
The problem, of course, is that there are people who are hungry today. We don’t need to wait for an economic downturn to find people in need.
But I guess my overall point is this. The church makes a lot of mistakes, and it has some significant structural issues. But at core it isn’t malicious. Church leadership really isn’t getting rich off this. They’re true believers, and although they have a culture of secrecy you can usually take what they do say at face value.
They’re just... about forty years behind culturally, and very slow to change, and have a world view that was informed by many decades of teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. And they really do believe that Jesus is going to return sometime soon.
But, again: people are hungry right now. We should feed them.
And yes, I completely agree that the church should probably adjust its focus a bit. I think the church has plenty in the bank, so what's wrong with having most of the income used for feeding the poor and everything else Jesus recommended?
However, that's really not my call, and IMO it's not really my business. I give my tithing because I'm asked to, not because I think the church will use it optimally. It's a show of obedience to God and faith that the leadership is being a good steward of that money. It isn't my choice how the church leadership chooses to use that money, it's my choice whether to give, and it's my choice whether to give extra to causes I believe in. So I do. I give to the church as well as other causes I believe in. Jesus recommended to give everything, and I feel like I do pretty much the same thing as the church (most excess goes to investments, which I hope will allow me to dedicate my life to helping others once I retire, hopefully early).
They have a form of socialism called the law of consecration that Mormon society will live under (I believe they might have lived like that in Salt Lake while initially settling there). My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. It still sounds a lot like Communism, though.
It’s truly amazing that they have 15 years worth of tithing for their members saved up. I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there.
Yikes. It sounds like part of her knew you were right but she was in serious denial.
By "latter days", do you mean after the LDS version of the end times? I thought that the "Latter Day" in Latter Day Saints referred to the time period of Joseph Smith. Mormons, from what I understand, encourage each other to prep for the end time and even have a semi-official guide on how to do so(it's free and pretty good, actually). It makes sense to me that they would also want to amass as much resources as possible to eventually build Zion.
> I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there.
Now I know why virtually all the men in my Mormon friend's family and social circle were either surgeons or lawyers. Better be able to get by while also tithing 10%!
That is because it is, 100%. If your teacher freaked out over it, she is having trouble reconciling it with the American cultural meme of "Communism is pure evil.", which stems from the Cold War, not religious doctrine.
And yes, something is off if a tithing LDS family is living on food stamps. I have had family who lost jobs and had no money, and the LDS church gave them food and money to cover bills, until they could get back on their feet. Such situations tend to be handled at the local level, and there are definitely good and bad leaders in all organizations, including churches.
And I don't really consider it voluntary if I am to believe the consequences that they teach: the threat of being ripped from and permanently separated from your family for eternity is just as coercive of a punishment as the threat of being sent to a gulag.
With the law of consecration, there's a clear, but voluntary state, and the end goal isn't the dissolution of the state, but the ending of the expectation to give up your property (the law would go away, but you'd continue to give because you want to). It's not socialism because it doesn't matter who owns the means of production, it only matters that the production is given to the church to be redistributed. It isn't communism because there is a clear state, but I suppose it's close since ideally there wouldn't be any social classes or coercion.
The main similarity is the ideal of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need", but I think there are enough differences to make it reasonable to say it's not communism, but it is a collectivist system with similar goals.
Most Bishops (local leaders) will tell the family to stop paying tithes for a time or to continue to pay but then they turn around and give them food and a check for rent/mortgage until you're back on your feet. They'll work with you and frequently require that you do certain things though--like look for a job--in order to continue receiving assistance.
The church has welfare programs to help members and non-members that are need. I've personally recommended such food and rent assistance from the church at a point in my life. I've even had the church cover expenses for mental health counseling.
I've also personally witnessed and helped to deliver food and provide service to those in need. Sometimes people in need receive in aid more than they tithe.
There's also a huge social network of people helping each other out not directly related to church funds.
There is also the Helping Hands program that provides labor and food and other support when there are natural disasters all over the world, including some big ones here in the US.
This is not a situation that's all take and no give. Not only does the church provide a lot of welfare support, but actively encourages members to be Christ-like and serve everyone in need.
I point out in another comment that, charitably, congregations receive about 8% of donations back to fund local congregations, often several multiples less. Some congregations I saw send about $25k/week on average for ~200 congregants, and have an $8k budget (about twice that if you account for mainteance, about about $20k when taking charitable giving of food and bill payment into account). What was most disappointing was the training of how to get people with long term needs off of the congregation's dime.
I think the Mormon church would do well to adopt a less centralized form of governance, treasury, and cash management.
Thinking about the US education specifically...imagine if we handled finances that way? Schools are largely paid for by local property taxes, so the rich areas get well funded schools, and the poor areas get poorly funded schools. If it was centralized and balanced, the rich schools might not get as many 3d printers, but perhaps the poor schools could get books. It might not be fair in the sense that those that pay more should get more, but it would be fair if your end goal is balance and charity.
It's a shame they are expected to express belief in
racist, sexist, or other bigoted beliefs in order to be
fully acceptable to their in-group.
Racism
- https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/mormons...
- https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/05/fake-apology-for-mo...
- https://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/06/09/39-years-later-priest...
Sexism
- https://www.livescience.com/46867-mormon-church-gender-roles...
- https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/02/22/where-mormon-chur...
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_women
Other bigotry
-https://rewire.news/article/2019/04/25/lgbtq-mormons-are-sti...
and about:
families: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854587315.html
service to all others: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854587314.html
And generally: http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854587122.html
I have genuine hope for Mormons, that they can repatriate for their historical blunders and be the great, solid people they aspire to be. They really do tend to be great people, just a little to at-the-ready to do what their hierarchical leadership deigns -- and to me that sacrifice of moral compass was my fundamental wedge issue. Self-introspection is a difficult principle to learn regardless of one's background.
1. Nobody is forced to live the Law of Consecration. It is a personal choice and not one forced down your throat under threat of death.
2. Under the Law of Consecration, as practiced under Joseph Smith, families would define their needs rather than have their needs dictated.
3. Communism is about power and control. The Law of Consecration is about individually loving your neighbors.
I learned some things about communism, read a number of books about individuals' experiences, from various countries, for a little while majored in Russian history at a university in the midwestern/central USA, reading, watched many Soviet films, etc., and my mother has a degree in Asian Studies and knows Mandarin, etc etc of various family studies & travel, and communism seems consistently, across time and place, to be a combination of attractive words with a murderous horror of physical and mental abuse and control over individuals and any group that might not be in favor with those in power.
ETA: it occurs to me that there's a parallel here to the fundamental attribution error: my favorite system has flaws because its fundamental principles haven't been fully realized, while other systems have flaws because their fundamental principles are bad. Anyway, it's a pattern to watch out for.
Found a link about the United Order in the early church. Sorta worked? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order
Edit: none of this says people are perfect, but that this aspect of Christianity is very different from communism. (I had a whole semester class on Stalin, and also some limited reading since.)
https://apathofmyown.com/saving-for-a-rainy-day-prosperity-a...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2020/12/30/mormons...
[1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-23-mn-5234-s...
If you count the real estate, it is easily at least 500 million per historic city in Europe. This is a rough estimate (area for 500 houses in absolutely top locations).
So it would be a lot harder to have a holistic idea of the financial health of the global Catholic Church.
Think of it like a cemetery. That cemetery has a property value, and in a metro area it could be quite high. But the custodians of the cemetery wish to maintain it in perpetuity, and the people who have chosen that cemetery as their final resting place are counting on them to do so. Even if that property could conceivably be sold for a great price, that doesn't mean the cemetery custodians are rolling in dough, because they have committed NOT to sell.
So if you look at the actual operating budget of the Vatican or any Catholic diocese, you will see that it is relatively modest. The so-called riches of the Vatican are generally things that can't be sold, borrowed against, etc.
What they are planning to eventually do with it? Buy off my local pol? Buy Utah and secede? Never mind the advantageous tax treatment enjoyed. This disturbs me.
The $100B in holdings are a small part of their assets. They have large real estate holdings (e.g. 2% of Florida) as well as a very diversified portfolio.
Nations will slowly be absorbed into Zion, a communist utopian nation ruled by Jesus Christ himself and the world will see unprecedented prosperity for 1000 years.
Not really. Remove all exemption, deductions, credits, and special treatments.
What's the taxable income or capital gains of a belief, exactly?
Off topic, but I would also support mandatory service in military for all similar to Israel. I can’t think of any other way to make people care about their country’s actions.
Look, I got no problem with what people believe or how they pray. But 100 billion isn't needed for that so the purpose is??? Will it involve me? And the tax treatment complaint is also perfectly reasonable.
None of this is hatred for private property nor religion.
I think a tax policy based on “reasonable” confiscation is not very sound or sustainable and probably worse policy than allowing churches to collect money tax free.
At the same time there are laws in the US at least about how charities must use their cash and if they’ve broken these laws it would be a very serious case for them.
Generally a “reasonable” discussion on HN would involve details of the case and further our understanding of the issue. But that really wasn’t on your mind was it... “My throwaway”?
Your confiscation point is valid. I don't know that is an equitable solution because private people did pay into the program at one point.
I suppose what I'd like to see is religions limited to some multiple of working annual budget in assets. This avoids an entire set of perverse negative incentives.
Grandfather it in and prevent further investment or collections until the assets come back to the level specified.
It's how they got the money (typically manipulation[0][1] and free-will donations) and how they spend the money (politics, for-profit ventures) [2][3].
[0] http://johnlarsen.org/mormon-expression/ Episode 250
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/7p09zl/today_i_le... LDS Philanthropies produced a video encouraging wealthy people to leave inheritance with the LDS church to keep their kids in line.
There may be a plethora of valid reasons to dislike the organization, but it doesn't follow that they shouldn't have a lot of money unless you think nobody should have a lot of money.
And if that is your argument, you should also consider if that includes the US government. We are talking about organizations in this instance, not people.
What I would prefer to see is at least some honest respect for one's enemies. "They are my enemy, but they at least have the same rights as anyone else."
Presumably, the person who wrote this is against religion/mormonism/christianity. If that is they case, they are an outsider and don't really have a valid say in what an organized religion should want. So it comes off as what I wrote in my comment, which is backed up by what they wrote in their next sentence, which is in essence, "organization I don't like has a lot of money, and I think they shouldn't have a lot of money."
Your criticisms about how the Mormon church spends its money is irrelevant to how much money they have (and the $100B figure in the article). Your criticisms about how they got the money are relevant though. Although I can't really judge how much of an issue manipulation is, as it is both subjective and rampant in the almost any exchange of money (sales, advertising, and arguably taxes), and as you also mentioned people freely give to the Mormon church.
I'm not religious, yes, about that you would be right. I presume you are religious but it makes no difference. Where you fall off though is in assuming I'm anti-Mormon or anti-Christian. Not at all. I have friends that are religious and respect the right to be so 100%.
This is very different from a church with apocalyptic teachings or teachings that at some point the church will become government or political teaching amassing a 100 billion+ warchest tax free. That is flat out fucking dangerous and wrong should not be permitted. Really no other way to put it. My other comments on this thread clarify my position if you care. I'm not in favor of confiscation.
Apocalyptic teachings or teachings that the church will become part of a world government are part of religion. (I happen to disagree with these things, if you are referring to what I think of).
What you still seem to be saying is that those beliefs disqualify them from being allowed to amass wealth. You aren't saying it is ill-gotten wealth. You are saying their beliefs disqualify them from having wealth. I refer to my original point.
But dangerous apocalyptic cults do exist. They harm adherents and harm society at large. So yes, it can and it does happen.
The ability to accumulate massive wealth is not needed for spiritual practice, provides severe moral hazards (often contrary to the stated purposes of the religion) and provides means to carry out social agendas which affect non-adherents. So the simple and common sense solution is to legally prevent this accumulation.
There are already restrictions on freedom of religion (and speech, and firearms etc). You can't slap a "Church" label on a prostitution ring and have it fly (this actually has happened). Nor in my estimation should you be able to slap a Church label on a business or real estate company and have it fly. You are one or the other, you get to chose for tax purposes and amount of wealth the organization is allowed to accumulate.
A bit off topic but for the record, I think it is manifestly dangerous to allow individuals or corporations too much power (financial or otherwise) also. But religions have a history of behaving much more irrationally because it is such a personal emotional issue and is less regulated by rational self interest. Thus it can be more dangerous. Keep churches churches and they will be better churches. Make them businesses (or even worse governments) and everyone is screwed.
Also someone downvoted you because they apparently don't agree. For whatever it's worth I'm reversing that because I think your points are worth considering.
I don't know what period you're longing for, but it sounds like an outlier. The church history I'm familiar with is one where the Pope had power at least on par with the head of any government or military near their sphere of influence. Also, crusades.
Churches amassing massive wealth is far from new. Nor do I suspect the LDS has even a small fraction of the Roman Catholic Church's wealth.
Charities also often have positive externalities, but they have far more regulation than churches. Again, why the special treatment?
The social cohesion aspect of churches is gone at this point as well. That may have been true 50 years ago, but not today.
Perhaps if you are a member of the church, but definitely not if you don't abide by the exact, often conservative , rules of a given church.
Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc. Not only do people in power use the churches to hide their personal beliefs behind, many churches use their power to oppress others.
I mean the crusades were a thing...
I'll agree churches provide social cohesion but often at the cost of tribalism against people outside that given churches norms.
I hear this a great deal, but would love some actual numbers to back it up. My own experience supports that this is true in a limited way for members of the church going through a discrete crisis, but pales in comparison to the good done by, for instance, WIC and SNAP.
(Not to mention that your so-called “cohesion” also includes Scientology, Westboro Baptists and prosperity theology.)
Your underlying assumption that churches are unique as providers of social capital in modern society is... peculiar. The fact that churches are tax-exempt is a consequence of the dominant position of the Catholic church in the middle ages, and the compromises made in the subsequent struggle to remove the church bureaucracy from the government.
I expect that as religiousness across the US population declines, churches will gradually be required to behave more like other non-profits. But that will probably take many decades.
See women’s rights, gay and other sexual orientation rights, minority rights, catholic pedophilia, Mormon multiple wife and underage nonsense, Scientology, etc.
It provides a certain tribe a tax exemption, that may or may not do good deeds with it. No reason to provide any tax exemption (not that anyone should have one in the first place).
I think we have read different history books.
Now if you run a for-profit child care center out of your chapel and don't pay taxes, that is something the IRS has seized a church for.
It turns out a lot of them are pretty smart and understand how to treat each case on its own details. Their profession is about picking out exact details to unpack exact consequences, not being swept along by generalities.
The basis of the exemption of churchs is due to the historical development of trusts and revenue law, going back at least as far as the Charitable Uses Act in 1601 -- long before the US Constitution was drafted and adopted. Religious purposes were exempted because at the time genuine belief was common.
Charitable purposes as a concept therefore has a shared origin across all of the common law countries, including the UK, the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and others. But common law is subordinate to new legislation, and so is historical legislation.
The reason churches are given a free ride is that nobody wants to pay the incredible political capital it will require to fix this relic.
«If the whistleblower’s claim is successful, that person could receive up to 30% of the proceeds collected by the IRS.»
Meh.
Mormons are well aware the Church uses its tithes to invest. Much of this thread’s comments are little more than ignorant and bigoted attacks on Mormons and Christians.
Please call out such. I'm sure dang and the mods would prefer to keep bigotry out of HN.
Especially if you are referring to my comments, I would like to be told where my expressions and observations are being perceived as bigotry. I love my currently Mormon family deeply and work hard to not push them away, despite their actions towards me.
I’m not Mormon myself but I have Mormon family members and the openly upvoted bigotry disturbs me.
I'm struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn't a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning.
Remember, downvotes are just like playing basketball on Sunday...
I don't think many religions count churches not paying taxes as sins.
Incidentally, Christensen almost certainly contributed a rather significant amount of money to this sum, and likely would have said it would be a sin not to have done so. "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings"
Tithing got re-defined over the years. Consider: https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too...
But now you have me interested, so:
> When you read the previous chapters and verses you will see that Malachi, as God's mouthpiece, is accusing the Church leaders of embezzling
Given that this statement is based on the author's interpretation of 17th century english (KJV) translated from Hebrew, I'm a bit surprised by the confidence here (and the confidence with which you repeat it).
I'm no biblical scholar, but I just read Malachi 2 and 3, and came away with the same impression as before, that the bit about tithes was addressed to all of the nation of israel.
The author of that post seems to be primarily drawing the conclusion from their interpretation here:
> "Will a man rob God? Well You have robbed me, even this whole nation!" In other words, the priest class had been robbing the whole nation
Many other translations do not permit this interpretation, which is possible due to the ambiguity in the KJV of whether "even this whole nation" modifies "you" or "me".
NIV: "You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me."
NABRE: "You are indeed accursed, for you, the whole nation, rob me."
NET: "You are bound for judgment because you are robbing me—this whole nation is guilty."
NRSV: "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me—the whole nation of you!"
CSB: "You are suffering under a curse, yet you—the whole nation—are still robbing me."
So maybe it is directed at the priests, maybe it isn't, but the understanding that it is directed at the priests isn't unique to the LDS church, as that post seems to suggest ("testament to our willingness for self-indoctrination that so many Latter-day Saints constantly...").