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Comment by newnewpdro | Hacker News Reader

> Kids, medical problems and bad luck can all contribute, but we generally have a very low degree of control over those situations.

Bad luck sure, but kids are an entirely deterministic and preventable outcome. Most medical problems are arguably preventable as well.

I agree regarding the link between possessions and employer leverage.

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That's not how it works with children. Unless you have abortion easily available for poor people and sterilisation easily available for folks that don't want children... you might not have a choice. If you are male, you can't force stop an accidental pregnancy. Luckily, though, male sterilisation is quite effective. It is generally more difficult for females to get sterilized (especially if you aren't married and/or don't have children), it has more risk of failure, is more invasive, and is more expensive. All other birth control methods can fail - people get pregnant on the pill. Condoms break. And so on. Your employer might not even cover birth control.

And these things don't even begin to cover things like rape, incest, and underage pregnancy where a guardian doesn't allow abortion.

Children are not always preventable

Other folks have already addressed the medical problems, so I'm gonna pass on it.

Unless we're talking about rape which is not how most children are produced, sex is a choice with the predictable potential outcome of children.

It is a ridiculous expectation to expect folks not to have sex, and as such, not included. This is a basic urge of people, and while some folks choose not to, most do not. If it were that simple, abstinence only education would include coping skills to avoid rather than shaming and would have a much better track record.

Not having sex is simply not a viable option for most people - especially so within the confines of a committed romantic relationship. In fact, it is an easy way to void such a relationship in most cases.

> Most medical problems are arguably preventable as well.

That's a huge stretch. You could say that for most illnesses we have some idea how to reduce the risk, but there is still an overwhelming amount of luck involved.

(And that's before we even get into the luck-based factors that make lower-risk behaviours harder or easier for different people.)

I'm under the impression that the vast majority of significant medical problems, in the US anyways, are associated with obvious risk factors such as obesity, sedentary lifestyle, and alcohol/tobacco consumption.

Those are all trivially avoided.

Uh huh. You come back in fifteen years and tell us how that's going for you, sport.

Most of what I need doctors or other quasi-medical professionals to assist with is congenital or... wait for it... sports related. Turns out that 'get plenty of exercise' doesn't automatically fix everything. And it's harder to manage 'plenty' once you get older and everything fucking hurts.

So many of my older friends have informed me that my definition of 'everything hurts' is adorable that I'm starting to worry that they're right when they tell me that I haven't seen anything yet.

There is just so much lack of general awareness about the things that can go wrong with your body once you're past the midpoint. Most young people are oblivious, just like I used to be.

Now I'm 40, and this Sunday night I start seeing double when gazing above the horizon. After finding an opthalmologist who would see me immediately and getting MRIs and blood tests, it is diagnosed as idiopathic optical inflammatory syndrome and mostly treatable (although it tends to come back). I suppose I should be happy it's not a tumour in my brain.

Ah youth, wasted on the young.

> Uh huh. You come back in fifteen years and tell us how that's going for you, sport.

When I report all's well in fifteen you'll just claim it's good genetics.

The critical ingredient between the two sides in such debates is that one side believes that hard work is all you need to be successful, and the other side thinks it’s hard work and luck. And doesn’t tolerate the micro aggression or outright aggression exhibited by people who have both but their fragile egos can’t stand that they are anything but self-made, full stop.

There are things in my life that have gone spectacularly well, and some that have gone pretty badly. So here’s me in the middle, with a pretty okay life that others envy, but the bootstraps people look down on.

The major disease most strongly associated with a known, avoidable risk factor that I can think of is lung cancer. And Wikipedia tells me that

> The vast majority (85%) of cases of lung cancer are due to long-term tobacco smoking.[4] About 10–15% of cases occur in people who have never smoked.[14] These cases are often caused by a combination of genetic factors and exposure to radon gas, asbestos, second-hand smoke, or other forms of air pollution.

So even for lung cancer, a significant minority of sufferers have never smoked. Genetic factors are obviously out of one's control, and the others mentioned can be pretty damn hard to avoid, especially if you're poor and/or born in the wrong place.

I would have gone for Atherosclerosis instead of lung cancer personally.

> I would have gone for Atherosclerosis instead of lung cancer personally.

Okay, but that isn't fully within anyone's control either, and you're still ignoring the diseases that are predominantly genetic, the ones that happen more or less randomly as far as we can tell, the ones caused by environmental factors in childhood, and all the people who get a 'preventable' disease despite doing what they could do avoid it.

I'll stop arguing after this though, I think we're either talking past each other about the definitions of 'vast majority' and 'preventable', or having an unspoken argument about the general attitude we should adopt toward people with health problems, or at a factual impasse that we can both google our way around if we care enough.

So much so that it’s a trope to hire a salesperson with an expensive leased car, a flashy watch, and an overall expensive lifestyle.

> kids are an entirely deterministic and preventable outcome.

You may not want kids, but you can't choose not to want kids.

There are many things I want but can't afford, and instead of putting myself in a vulnerable position to get them I choose to do without.

You’ve missed my point. I was referring to Schopenhauer‘s statement which is translated as “one can do what one wants, but can’t want what one wants.”

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/32731/what-do...

Some people are so compelled to have kids that they don’t have a choice in the matter at all.

Personally my wife and I chose not to have kids, but we know many more people who had to have kids than those who felt they had a choice in the matter.

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