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I agree that these folks are probably acting with good intentions. And that can actually make the situation worse. This CS Lewis quote comes to mind: "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

But CS Lewis was wrong as history of genocides and purges show. None of them started for the good of victims and they were definitely in the category of worst oppression.

I think Lewis had in more in mind something like what happens to Winston in George Orwell's 1984, where it wasn't enough for the Party for him to obey them but not agree with them; it wasn't enough for the Party to discover that he didn't agree with them and kill him; they were only satisfied once they'd tortured him into agreeing with them as well.

I'd much rather be under killed for disagreeing than tortured until my captors are satisfied that I really agree with them.

Afaik, all genocides involved a lot of torture - both of targets and of those who refused to cooperate or talked against it. Sometimes it was to gain information, force agreement, force compliance etc. It also involved quite a lot of petty rule making to keep those who were being oppressed in line.

And quite a lot of it was basically for fun or hate.

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Besides original quote is about motivation. People who organized genocides were fully ok with their own conscience. They were in fact proud over their own good work.

And as fun it sounds and as easy it is to use against certain disliked people, it is not true in the sense of how world really works when things go bad.

Things have calmed a bit in the hacker community, but we have had our fair share of individuals over the past few years trying to carve out their little slice of the purity spiral.

Perhaps they do believe what they are doing is "right"; right for others or just them. I think the underlying motivations are more subconscious TBH. Certainly toxic individuals.

Seems live and let live has played its course. We are getting back around to "live the way I tell you".

Mao certainly had a thirst for power no matter whether he thought he was doing good or not. But at some point, you have to wonder if refusing to bathe because you clean yourself on the bodies of teenage virgins, as Mao did, is really done in the belief of the greater good or not.

>But at some point, you have to wonder if refusing to bathe because you clean yourself on the bodies of teenage virgins, as Mao did, is really done in the belief of the greater good or not.

Idk if Li's book is to be trusted since some of it sounds comical but that's not exactly what it says. I believe it said he received only nightly rubdowns with hot toils and when he said "i wash myself inside the bodies of my women" the context was....well his genitals.

For Mao it was a ploy for power from the Lenin playbook.

As the PLAs and CCP old guards power grew he had to cut that down a bit via the red guards. It morphed a bit and there was infighting but it was a tool to wrest control from other factions.

> Most people think they are doing "what's right," and some are willing to overlook unethical acts (or actions that let them accrue power to themselves) if it serves the greater good.

Yup, just look at the Ten Commandments. There's exceptions to "thou shalt not kill" [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill#Justified_...

Reading this critical Mao biography now: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679746323/

Only about 1/6 in, but Mao's lust for killing and torture is well documented. He also had an advantage rising to power in the party since he had no problem killing other communists, while most of them only killed for the cause, not for themselves.

It's a historical fact that he's responsible for more deaths (50m-70m) than both Hitler and Stalin. And that's his own citizens, in peacetime.

Still, did he think of himself as a good man doing good things? I'd say probably. That's how almost everyone sees themselves. When they lie to others, it's often because they've told the same lie to themselves first.

I haven't read much about Mao, but in the case of Stalin, his actions were calculated to the last ruble.

The Kuleks were stripped of their assets to pay for the industrialization and armaments Stalin felt was needed for Russia to enter the 20th century. It turns out he wasn't a minute too soon.

Who built the Russian factories? Americans! After the Detroit auto plants were finished, the builders were contracted by Stalin.

Stalin is considered to be a monster in the West, but at the same time he was a great leader when his country needed him.

Holodomor.

I assure you he is considered a monster in Ukraine, too. Because he was.

Good people with good intentions are often misled by toxic people with toxic intentions, and end up acting as enablers of their toxicity. Even Mao, wise and good-intentioned, was misled by the Gang of Four.