The man who discovered umami
bbc.com
bbc.com
Do some controlled ones, for example split a portion into two, ask a 2nd person to sprinkle some onto one of them and try both of them and guess which one has MSG on it.
> In conclusion we would like to state that although MSG has proven its value as an enhancer of flavour, different studies have hinted at possible toxic effects related to this popular food-additive. These toxic effects include CNS disorder, obesity, disruptions in adipose tissue physiology, hepatic damage, CRS and reproductive malfunctions. These threats might have hitherto been underestimated. In the meantime, people keep using ever larger amounts of MSG unaware of the possible consequences. Further studies need to be undertaken in order to assess the connection between MSG and cardiovascular disorders, headache, and hypertension in human models. MSG is a controversial food-additive used in canned food, crackers, meat, salad dressings, frozen dinners and a myriad of other products. It is found in local supermarkets, restaurants and school cafeterias alike. While MSG probably has huge benefits to the food industry, the ubiquitous use of this food-additive could have negative consequences for public health. If more substantive evidence of MSG-toxicity would be provided, a total ban on the use of MSG as a flavour enhancer would not be unwise to consider.
Here is a good article on how MSG got a bad wrap:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-msg-got-a-bad-rap-f...
I kind of wish I got to taste 80s era American Chinese food in it's full MSG glory.
[0] https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blog/whole-story/myths-and-...
> The short answer is that MSG, or monosodium glutamate, is an unacceptable ingredient at Whole Foods Market, thus not allowed in any of our products.
The takeaway I got from it was that the opposition to MSG has a racial component ('Chinese Restaurant Syndrome'), may have been started as a prank (letters to that particular publication often were - they didn't have 4chan back then), and studies showing harm used very unrealistic dosages. Allergy or sensitivity may exist but the chances of it being a poison and literally affecting every human body seems very unlikely.
I also have a bag in my kitchen and came to the same conclusion regarding taste that he did. Adding more does not do much to dishes with that component already (meat, mushroom, etc). But it does change dishes that lack it.
This seems unrelated to the claims I quoted/linked. Cocaine is "just a plant extract". But this statement doesn't say much about how wise it is to ingest it. [0] You might as well put this on a pack of cigarettes.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_poisonous_plants#Other...
That being said, there are people that legitimately have a glutamate allergy and they do have reactions when they eat sea weed.
Glutamate is an amino aid and a neurotransmitter, your body produces it. Per [1], "It is used by every major excitatory function in the vertebrate brain, accounting in total for well over 90% of the synaptic connections in the human brain." Per [2], "Glutamate itself is ubiquitous in biological life."
I don't legitimately see how someone can have an allergy to it. It seems to be a basic building block of biological life. It's like saying you are allergic to DNA.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate_(neurotransmitter) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate_flavoring#Natural_oc...
I say that to say you make a lot of them. And you eat a lot of them whenever you eat organic matter.
And to your point, even water can be deadly if you drink too much too fast. That doesn't mean you have a water allergy.
There are several steps before your metabolic system can turn MSG into amino acids and surprise, surprise: until then it behaves like a different chemical.
[1] https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Monosodium-glutama...
I'm not convinced you read what you just cited.
You can extract formaldehyde and arsenic out of an apple, but that doesn’t make chugging the extract as safe as eating an apple.
And that's a perfectly good argument.
"It comes from seaweed and you eat seaweed just fine" is not. You've singled out arsenic in your response, but I also mentioned formaldehyde, which is throughout the apple's flesh. Would you drink a bottle of it because of that?
The reports of MSG being called “the devil“ were greatly exaggerated. Your personal interpretation of what I said:
> The jury is still out on how (un)healthy MSG is
Was:
> people will hail MSG as the devil
The fact that it’s a seaweed extract, or that some people eat it and are ok are orthogonal to what I said. I said one should be careful about excessive use of anything that hasn’t been studied to the point where any reasonable shadow of doubt was removed. The fact that multiple published studies came up with these potential links and there’s no definitive one to contradict them at the very least warrants caution. Which is what I suggested. It’s sensible advice to not do anything excessively, even more so if you have any doubt.
Some people excessively drank alcohol, smoked, ate red meat, etc. (all plant based or at least natural) all their life and were just fine. But it’s still not an argument for doing the same.
And the link I gave didn’t come from personal opinion (these are strong on HN), or some random blog but nih.gov. And their advice is just as sensible: we need to study more (yeah, guess they weren’t told on HN that MSG was super extensively tested and we have the definitive results) and advised caution. That’s it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6952072/
edit: also a single amino acid salt being harmful really requires some solid evidence, which seems to be not there.
As I said, jury is still out. I would personally not go overboard with adding it to everything I et until I know more. I'll take less flavor for now over the potential risks until more reliable data is published.
I react poorly to tomatoes, but it doesn't mean tomatoes are bad for everyone.
I read a couple of articles now, and it seems from interviews like the people behind some of the organizations protesting its use was hypersensitive themselves. It makes sense that if they have bad reactions, they assume that the substance itself is bad in general, even if that hasn't been shown in medical trials. The Food Agency also said that since the symptoms were limited in time and severity, even if hypersensitive (blurred vision, headache, and so on) it wasn't necessary to warn the general public to stop consumption.
I read an article saying that MSG is not allowed in baby food and is cautioned against for pregnant women. The baby food claim may be true, but the Food Agency says that small children process MSG as efficiently as adults, that there's no difference of glutamate blood concentration between fetus and mother when pregnant, and that MSG is not considered a risk for the fetus. They also say that it's not probable that it's transferred to the baby in breast milk, if consumption is kept at recommended daily intake.
When I was in elementary school in the 80s and 90s, people would eat knäckebröd [1] with butter covered with Aromat [2]. We didn't know it then, but it contained MSG which was probably why it tasted so good.
Aromat contains lactose, and a vegan alternative is Vegeta [3]. I don't sprinkle it directly onto food, even if I could, but use it more like powdered broth and add it to sauces and soups. It's pretty salty, so I use it instead of salt.
Another vegan product I'd like to mention for its umami flavor is Engevita [4] nutritional yeast flakes. I sprinkle that on top of food which gives it a more deep, nutty, or cheesy flavor. Instead of monosodium glutamate, where a sodium atom is bound to the glutamate amino acid, the glutamate is bound (according to an article I read that was light on details) to other amino acids, but still performs its umami duties. This is natural occurring glutamate in the yeast, and not an additive.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crispbread
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromat
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podravka#Consumer_brands
[4] http://marigoldhealthfoods.co.uk/products/engevita/engevita-...
I shy away from it because it gives me migraine headaches. Not everyone is like you, and that doesnt mean those others are being nonsensical.
Meanwhile, in Japan, MSG is commonly referred to by the brand name "Aji-no-moto", which means "essence of taste." It can be found in most households.
> Should I be concerned about Dihydrogen Monoxide?
> Yes, you should be concerned about DHMO! Although the U.S. Government and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) do not classify Dihydrogen Monoxide as a toxic or carcinogenic substance (as it does with better known chemicals such as hydrochloric acid and benzene), DHMO is a constituent of many known toxic substances, diseases and disease-causing agents, environmental hazards and can even be lethal to humans in quantities as small as a thimbleful.
In fact specifically labeling it by its chemical name rather than any brand/whatever names was I think an intentional technique.
I usually make Ramen soup about three nights a week. My wife and I never get tired of it because I have several different savory ingredients combinations that I use, but I almost always use a lot of seaweed of various types, dried shiitake mushrooms, and bonita flakes. I also have a few different types of noodles that I use, for variety.
My ramen differs from most recipes because I use about three times the amount of vegetables as cooked Ramen noodles.
Even the broth of Ramen Soup is especially savory, a treat after the noodles and vegetables are all eaten.
In Chinese cooking, there is the "numbing" flavor, red sichuan pepper, white pepper, cloves, et al.
Flavor is simply more complex than the headline that there are only four, and _______.
For example the capsaicin burn of a pepper can be be felt somewhere else on my body but now matter how much vinegar or sugar I rub on, I would not know if it was sour or sweet.
Pop literature: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-szechuan-p...
Research that article is based on: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2013.168...
Same thing has happened with curry leaves on multiple occasions too.
This is why it does not scale like sweet or salty does, it's more binary like it has umami or it does not.
I agree with the other child post that MSG is a good way to isolate the experience, but if you are hesitant about MSG try truffles (real, not the oil) without any other ingredients or dried shiitake they will be the closest to just isolating umami.
About the simplest thing you could do is take dried seaweed, rinse off the salt, then soak it in hot water and drink the water.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Accent-Flavor-Enhancer-Shaker-4-5...
A friend had MSG in water for a paid taste experiment. Said it was a bit like chicken stock.
Editing to say I know it's in vegetables too, but that's the first association a lot of people will make.
And the best thing is, it's not only in animal products, but also in mushroom, seaweed, and tomatoes
(His work actually puts the other four "basic tastes" to shame because where those four are mostly "well studied" in the social sciences [psychology tests of where on the tongue most responded to each of the 4], he actually narrowed down the specific taste receptors for glutamate, and how they operate.)
It's along the same line as "Isaac Newton discovered gravity."
Sort of like India was discovered by Columbus, of course people were living in India before.
Maybe you mean "West Indies"?
They call him papi.