Hacker News Reader

Comment by bencunningham | Hacker News Reader

Let's not pretend that Canadian cities are a utopia for tech workers. Vancouver and Toronto are insanely expensive and salaries just don't compare to those a hundred kilometres to the south. Hopefully it steadily improves but I'm not hopeful with these tech companies having virtually an unlimited supply and no incentive to boost salaries.

View on HN

Everyone here seems to assume that salaries are the biggest factor and ignoring that for many the goal is to gain citizenship in a developed country. For them getting paid well and Canada and becoming a citizen in ? (how many years does it take?) is better than being paid awesomely and waiting decades for the green card lottery.

That is because most of the people in Silicon Valley discussing Canada are Canadians who immigrated to the US. A Canadian can live in the US forever without worrying much about naturalization. They will always have their Canadian citizenship in their back pocket to fall back on.

For people looking to migrate from a developing country to a developed one, the situation is quite different.

Language barrier aside, Montréal seems like a hidden gem.

But you have to put up with cold winters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal#Climate

Which language barrier?

There's a fair share of Anglo QCs that will keep speaking English and everything will still work (be workable) in English.

It's not hard to learn French to a day to day level though.

I heard that companies are mandated to support bilingualism because of Bill 101, which could be a challenge for startups. But then again, perhaps that can be easily overcome by investing enough in localization.

> I heard that companies are mandated to support bilingualism because of Bill 101, which could be a challenge for startups

Does not apply to startups, it only applies if you have +50 employees https://www.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/francisation/entreprises/entrepr...

CAQ govt is working on that. Soon will come a bill which mandates all employers to exclusively recruit French. Currently the ruling govt of Québec is anti immigrant and showing signs of a future separatist referendum. I won't be counting on Québec to stay in Canada in the future.

That's a very pessimistic view of Quebec. PQ/Separatism is irrelevant and last time they were in power they got booted out quickly. It's more likely that Montreal separates from ROQ than Quebec separates from ROC.

Ah, the city-state route:

https://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/54yi1o/independen...

Montreal is an Anglophone city. Last I checked 80% were English speakers (not necessarily primary language).

Now Quebec City is entirely different. I could see language being more challenging there.

Honestly, Montreal is a hidden gem. Low cost housing, ton of culture and history.

The only drawbacks can be the Québécois anti-immigrant and anti-business climate, but it’s not stifling, just more noticeable than the rest of Canada.

Waspsareevil’s reply is the other thing you have to put up with living in Canada if you’re not a French speaker!

I mean.. I'm a Montrealer as well, and whilst I love this city, let's not kid ourselves. Montreal is not by any means 80% English and you're essentially handicapped if you can't speak French.

You just need to take a stroll in "Plateau" to witness this. The salaries are also really low and we are the highest taxed province in Canada.

I think we should give folks an accurate portrayal of this city instead of an endless stream self promotion

You know what? You’re right.

I think the stat was for the island of Montreal, not the wider city.

That said, I have visited a few times and not speaking French didn’t seem a huge barrier, but I was a tourist.

> Montreal is an Anglophone city. Last I checked 80% were English speakers

Would you be able to provide a source for that?

Even during it's Anglo heydays (pre-referenda), I don't think it was that high.

It is true that Montreal is highly Anglophone in the tech sector, but outside of enclaves like downtown, the west Island and a few neighborhoods like TMR and Ville St Laurent, Montreal is not very Anglophone at all.

Tangential: Montreal is an awesome city. I like Toronto, but I think Montreal is a little more livable.

Bonus: Schwartz’s deli.

As an anglophone who moved to Montreal last year, I'm kinda mixed on it. In my experience, French is both required for accurately ordering food (unless you're lucky and the person taking your order knows English) and for understanding what the métro audio bulk items say (I wish they would put those messages on Twitter too). People will generally be supportive to you trying to learn French, but in order to get permanent residency in Quebec you are required to know it to a decently high level of fluency. It's doable, but honestly a nuisance.

That’s very odd. My interactions in Montreal with stores and restaurants always begin with a “bonjour-hi” and most places have an English menu. In my hundreds of interactions, I’ve only had to use my rusty French two or three times. The rest of Quebec is another story, though.

In my experience, your level of customer service largely depends on your skin color in Québec.

White French > White Anglo > Rest

Ouch. That sucks, but unfortunately doesn't surprise me when I think about it. :-/

Yeah, I've found the same as you. I've even found that if someone says just "bonjour" to you, asking parlez vous anglais? will get you a conversation in English.

Even if you get a CSQ from Québec, the Québec govt has made it such that you have to wait 2 years at Federal stage. While rest of Canada will get your permanent residency within 4-6 months with skills more in demand other than speaking French which your can learn anyway by immersion.

Unfortunately some people seem to be figuring this out... The rent has been blasting off over the past 3 years from 'low' to 'regular north american metropolis' :(

Unfortunately Québec do not have a working skilled immigration system yet. Québec do not follow rest of Canada's immigration system. The CAQ govt. of Québec has completely messed up the immigration system of Québec. Québec focuses on knowledge of French rather than other merits for their immigration, so they get a huge chunk of unskilled immigrants who speaks only French with no employable skills.

You can still apply for a Permanent Residence outside of Quebec and then drive/fly to Quebec though which is 5/1 hour away respectively.

That is ethically wrong even though a Canadian PR allows you to live and work anywhere in Canada including Québec.

I was speaking more to the high skilled foreign workers in Québec who have to wait years for a permanent residency because they work & reside in Québec. This delay also applies to foreign students in Québec who wants to apply for permanent residency after their studies. Québec is not a good choice for foreign workers and students in Québec who wants a permanent residency. Rest of Canada follows Express Entry but those who work or reside in Québec is not eligible for the fast track process. One country two rules.

Toronto may be expensive but it's not SF-level expensive. Salaries may not compare but you don't have to worry about basic things like healthcare and high-powered weaponry in the streets.

Those are just the top two–there are many other reasons to move to Canada than just money.

High powered weaponry in the street? Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California.

I believe the "News" may be thanked for that.

> Someone has given you a very unrealistic conception of California.

That someone might have been a Californian. To pick a recent example: https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Videos-show-fatal-shoot...

Hyperbole aside, you are more likely to die from firearms in California than Canada. Most of that, on both sides of the border, is suicide.

Studied in Montreal, went to Texas, then to New York. When I left Montreal, people were genuinely worried for me that I'm gonna get shot.

Contrary to popular Canadian fear mongering, the US is not a shooting free-for-all, as big as a problem gun violence might be. Of all the variables, getting shot is not something I consider about when deciding between the US and Canada.

Toronto house prices are about 3/4 of SF, but salaries are about 1/3 to 1/2.

Far harder to own a home in Toronto on a tech salary.

And if you get a tech job in SF, you’ve got great health insurance, so not a major obstacle.

> And if you get a tech job in SF, you’ve got great health insurance, so not a major obstacle.

Yup, as long as you have a job with medical coverage, you're OK. But God forbid you should lose your job and get sick, right? Because then you're screwed.

As someone from a very red, very “high-powered weaponry” friendly area, I grinned ear to ear at your statement. Don’t let a few psychos scare you. Guns are neato.

Imagine the reaction here if London was being discussed and somebody rattled off anecdotes about the growing number of stabbings there.

What does "high-powered weaponry in the streets" mean? Do you guys have tanks roaming the streets?

Aside from that one guy who stole a tank a few years back in San Diego, no. But shootings along I-80 are not uncommon (and then there was that driver in Gilroy with a slingshot). That big eviction in Oakland? The county showed up with MRAPs. Oh, I guess that recent Greyhound bus shooting was in California.

At least we're not Kentucky.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fully-ar...

I understand SF folks are paying $500-1,000/mo for healthcare?

Not at high-paying tech companies, those usually cover most or all of insurance.

You're still paying for it, but like payroll taxes it comes out of your salary before you even see it which makes people think it's "free".

Sure, and if you live in Canada, you're explicitly paying for healthcare in the form of high taxes.

Probably lower than what Americans pay (between 2.9%-3.8% Medicare tax plus insurance premiums). America's healthcare system is really bloated and inefficient compared to developed countries.

> Sure, and if you live in Canada, you're explicitly paying for healthcare in the form of high taxes.

You mean, “the United States”, not Canada, right? The US pays more (not just per capita, but as a share of GDP, and thus would need higher taxes to pay for it) out of public funds for healthcare than Canada does. See, e.g., https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...

The US, unlike Canada, also pays a bit more in private funds on healthcare than it does in private funds.

If they are working in tech, their employer either pays for it fully or subsidizes it to the point where the person just pay something nominal like $50-100/mo, and it is not counted as their salary. So people usually don’t include that when saying how much they make, because they typically dont even actually know or care how much their employer pays for it (at my place of work you actually have to go pretty deep into the HR portal to look it up).

Not even close. I pay a $250 premium for my family of 6, my employer pays the rest. My health coverage is worth $24,000 per year if I paid out of pocket — with the SV salary differential between Canada and Silicon Valley, I am still coming out much further ahead even if I had to pay 100% of my own insurance.

Most FANG tech workers pay $0/month for healthcare.

Not in tech jobs. I pay $60 per month for myself. Company covers the other $8,000.

Housing prices in YVR or Toronto are similarly out of reach, more so in the case of YVR

Because they are young and do not use it?

If you work for an SF company, you don’t have to worry about healthcare either. As far as “high powered weaponry,” that’s just hyperbole. Toronto has a higher homicide rate than New York. https://www.blogto.com/city/2018/06/toronto-homicide-rate-no...

Headline from this past weekend in Toronto: "Three dead, two injured in shooting at Airbnb rental in downtown Toronto" (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/01/31/four-injured-pos...)

you want a cookie? homicide exists in every city. Toronto is relatively safe compared to its American counterparts.

Which American counterparts?

Detroit? Kansas City? Camden? Sure.

But cities like SF aren’t like those cities at all. Quick google shows 33 homocides in SF and 142 in Toronto. Based on population, that’s 33 per million for SF and 24 for Toronto.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com