More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could
news.gallup.com
news.gallup.com
The entire world was relatively borderess prior to 20th century, and it was completely outside of humanly possible for the state anywhere to keep tap on every individual.
If you talk about the period from medieval, to early renaissance. It was very natural for every polity to want to get more subjects. Feudal lords couldn't have been more happy to see more people migrating to their domains.
Things started changed with appearance of early nation state model in late renaissance. The more central the role of the nation state got, the further right was the centre of power.
All of the above culminated with introduction of the visa system in Europe, shortly prior to WWII, which was later adopted by nearly all nations around the world.
I feel like your comment makes it seem a lot more fluid than it was for a group to simply migrate and enjoy their new country.
Think of all the slaves that were brought into the Roman Empire for an example. Or the laws binding serfs to the land in the Middle Ages. Or of the early modern kingdoms of South East Asia, which were essentially slave states, raiding their neighbors for their population so they could at them to their own.
That’s one aspect of it.
The other is that despite travel being difficult, historically people have done a lot of it. This has become clear in recent years as DNA analysis of ancient populations has become possible. The origins of most Western Europeans lie in the steppes of Ukraine (it might not be clear who built Stonehenge but it’s certain it wasn’t an ancestor of a modern Briton). There were Indian traders in Rome (probably to sell silk and spices) and Dutch settlers in South Africa were witness to Bantu immigrants sweeping in from he north.
People have always been mobile, it turns out.
It was never easy, but for vastly different reasons than today, and, historically, there was a lot more migration than people today tend to think of that time period.
Until fairly recently, historically, if you weren't locally known or vouched for by those either locally trusted or in positions of authority, you'd often be completely ostracized and potentially subject to arbitrary violence that authorities wouldn't concern themselves with. So, effectively, not only wasn't the world borderless but the borders were at the village level.
> If you talk about the period from medieval, to early renaissance. It was very natural for every polity to want to get more subjects
Not really; plenty of them had every sustainably farmable acre under the plow, and any more people was more to support; there wasn't land for more peasants or agricultural surplus for more in the upper classes; conversely, with the agricultural revolutions as you exited this period to later periods, the constraints that make additional population an unsustainable burden are somewhat relieved.
1. Human labour was much more critical to survival than today. It was a great thing if one family from another town moved under you cause they'll farm and pay more taxes. Now labour is cheap and isn't critical survival. In fact, there's so much labour that social ills that arise from unemployment is a way bigger problem.
2. Migration happened in much shorter proximity. Therefore, the difference in language, culture, ethnicity and religion were much smaller than the effects of migration today. The host society wasn't concerned about huge changes of their society as much as today where changes of biblical scale are happen in a matter of decades.
3. There was no welfare. If you failed as a migrant, the cost of the failure is paid by yourself. If you fail as a migrant in the host society today, you still have free healthcare, education, citizenship for your children, child care, endless support system to sustain your living in the country. It makes sense the modern state wants control over who enters their state much more.
Your point is an interesting addition (have you read "The Art of Not Being Governed" by any chance?) but this seems to me to just be for the sake of getting more karma, which I will not support.
You could also write that it was borderless because they couldn't track every individual.
The Romans spent a lot of effort in trying to keep the various barbarian tribes from migrating freely into the Roman Empire. In fact, for much of the Roman Empire, the bulk of the Roman Army was stationed on the frontiers such as the Danube and Rhine to keep the German tribes out. One of the big turning points was in 406 when the Rhine froze and removed a natural barrier that had kept a lot of these tribes out before hand.
Imperial China also worked hard on keeping the various northern groups from migrating into China, going so far as to build the Great Wall.
It seems that the more developed the civilization, the more effort it expends in defining and guarding it's borders.
People are pointing out the hypocrisy in the selective application of freedom-of-movement. There may or may not be valid reasons for this but don't pretend its grounded in self-determination.
To cement that special relationship, the people of those states have given each other certain privileges, such as being allowed to move freely between those states.
I'm not making a value judgement on that claim -- just pointing out that it's no different than if two or more countries were to subvert their provinces/cities/communities/etc's wishes and allow for freedom of movement in pursuit of some benefit.
Right, part of the pact with OK is that they have ceded some rights to a common political body. Nothing you've said contradicts what I said.
The fact that CA (which has more in common with London, UK than Oklahoma City) has freedom of movement only with the latter has nothing to do with their decision as a community and everything to do with decisions made long ago and social contracts they were born into.
My point is that a communities' right to self-govern has very little to do with where you're allowed to freely move today -- it's a vast web of historical agreements, geopolitics, and the lottery of birth.
Historical agreements can be changed if there is political will, but of course inertia is important.
To put my answer to your question "Why should people in CA let people from OK move there?" in a different way, people from CA should allow people from OK to move there, and vice versa, because free movement between the two areas is a show of good faith. It tells the people of OK that the people of CA trust them not to exploit that privilege for their own gain, which is of course something that not everyone can be trusted not to do. Shows of good faith of that kind help both sides trust the other side more, to the point where they are comfortable with, for example, pooling military resources, which are absolutely critical to maintaining the future existence of both groups and are more effective when pooled.
Might the people of CA have enough in common with the people of London that each side could trust the other not to exploit their generosity? Maybe, but it takes quite a while for that trust to build.
There is no reason in theory why, say, Mexico couldn't apply to become part of the United States and the US accept them, but I suspect the reason this kind of thing doesn't happen any more is 1) being a leader of a nation state is much more fun / fulfilling than being governor of a state in the US, so why would the leaders of a country ever agree to it? and 2) the level of welfare spending under existing rules in the US would require a massive wealth transfer to any new state that isn't as developed an economy.
Personally, I still think it would be worth it for both the US and any state that wanted to join, but I don't think it will ever happen again.
>(for those who become permanent residents of a state) the right to be treated equally to native-born citizens
mentioned in Saenz v. Roe, 526 U.S. 489 (1999)
Edit: ah sorry I replied to you downthread.
>The U.S. Supreme Court in Crandall v. Nevada, 73 U.S. 35 (1868) declared that freedom of movement is a fundamental right and therefore a state cannot inhibit people from leaving the state by taxing them.
I'm having a hard time finding a controlling case that says states can't do the inverse, i.e. levy fees on those who want to move to their state. I don't have the time tonight to read the whole case and its references, but I'm happy to be proven wrong here. Levying a fee on people who move in seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do. After all, we all have to pay move-in fees when we lease a new apartment or buy a house.
>After all, we all have to pay move-in fees when we lease a new apartment or buy a house.
That has no bearing on this at all. Private companies are free to do many things the government can't.
Edit: it’s actually 158M who would migrate to the US if they could, and ~55M Americans who would leave, for a total net inflow of 103M, if everyone could magically teleport to a new country on a one time basis.
If you are living in first world country, you should know that you still have it very very easy.
To some, a chance to move is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Immigration policies aren't just about 'keeping the bad ones out', it's also about 'hey, how many people can we realistically bring into this economy over a given timeframe'?
"Why should this person and by extension country allow a stranger who may or may not align with their culture, politics, society, etc in for an indefinite time with no restriction?"
What would be your answer?
Africa is headed for a population crisis. Places like Somalia and Niger have around 6 or 7 children per woman. These are countries that already import a lot of food to feed rapidly growing populations. If we have another energy shock, it's unclear to me who is going to feed all of these babies.
Edit: right after writing this the very next HN article I come across is massive locust swarms threatening crops in Africa. Scary
For myself I tend to agree - I want to help those that believe moving to my home country will improve their lives, while at the same time want them to leave some baggage behind. Multiculturalism is great, until it isn't.
You still working in this? Would like to have a chat if possible.
I don't understand why I should not be allowed to take a 2 year vacation in another country without having to leave every 6 months and pray the border agent doesn't find it suspicious that I keep coming back.
I don't want to take someone's job, or milk the welfare system, and I would be a net positive to anywhere I decided to vacation (sales tax/VAT, property tax, hotel tax, income tax from the profits off all the crap I bought to live, etc).
I'd be happy if I still had to apply for a visa, but the typical 6 month visa prevents me from easily signing a lease.
How are they supposed to know that? A two year vacation is extraordinarily strange.
For example, Singapore requires you to have SG$ 2.5 Mio in assets if you want an unlimited visa.
There are VERY few people in the world who can take two years off and not worry about needing any income, so it’s incredibly understandable that that’s not a common visa scenario. Americans also forget that the rest of the world doesn’t have to pay income tax on earnings no matter where they live, so the visa ties into tax residency as well.
A few years ago China made a u-turn and started tightening on legit applicants. Property bought by business visa holders is now in legal limbo. It's said that it is now nowhere as certain for small business owners to get an extension, even when their business operate in good standing.
If you get kicked out with you business still in China, it will suck.
That said, apart from the US, I wouldn't know any country where a rich German citizen couldn't get a long-term business or investment visa.
Exactly. Like all things, a few bad actors spoil it for the rest of us.
So I guess it is still pay-to-stay, but instead of paying the government, you are paying one of a few dozen private companies that the government chose based on some random criteria, and apparently there were many endorsing organizations that didn't even know they were selected.
If you live in a country for 50%+1 days of a solar year you're considered resident in that country and this has a number of implications (first of all taxes). I guess that's why you can't get more that 6 months of visa.
You can ask for a resident permit though, but if you come from a rich country and you can show that you have enough money to live you may get it. (I had an American friend that did exactly that).
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/residence-domicile-...
Up to 60 days can be disregarded in the case of "exceptional circumstances", which generally have to be pretty extreme.
I'm not saying that's bad, but countries typically want some control over this process.
As such, it makes a lot of sense for the government to charge you lots of money extra for a longer stay, which is what most of them do.
I've seen some of this resentment in SE Asia. Foreigners work remotely from paradise, which is great for us -- but the locals see you filling up the nice restaurants and renting the best apartments and driving up the cost of living for locals who, unlike us, don't have many options about where they live.
What ads are you talking about?
- U.S. still No. 1 desired destination for potential migrants
- 18 countries attract two-thirds of all potential migrants worldwide
Libertarians don't have to believe open borders work fully but should be open to talking about it.
It's also something in the future people will judge us for. They will live in a world where richness is less border based though, so get rose colored glasses. Like slavery, easy to judge when you don't get to do it.
How many of those potential migrants want to move to Texas vs Spain?
> The free movement of persons is a fundamental right guaranteed by the EU to its citizens. It entitles every EU citizen to travel, work and live in any EU country without special formalities.
Source: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/border...
As an aside, this was a hotly contested subject during the UK EU “Brexit” referendum.
Kind of. There are passport checks and you have no automatic right to work (which is what the GP was discussing). So in practice no you can’t.
> and it's to do with a lack of border checks rather than the basic freedom of movement right
It’s both. As the link I posted clearly states
Anyway, for immigration that’s a bit moot as there is a universal policy for EU member states. Which was a contentious issue during Brexit.
Canada, maybe. I'm looking into that.
An instead of North America it says ‘Northern America’ which makes me believe this refers to just the US & Canada
If we shut the door on wealthy Chinese/Indians/Saudis/Nigerians/etc, I'd bet big money that the condition of those countries would improve rapidly and substantially.
A farmer from rural Malawi who cannot write and doesn't speak English would not be able to integrate into a European countries' economy and, accordingly, would be a lot less welcome.
This farmer from rural Malawi who can't communicate in English may not want to move to Europe, because he would have a bad time there.