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Comment by n00b123 | Hacker News Reader

Interesting topic (and comments).

1. I do inner monologue. And I have to say, sometimes I get scared from what I "hear". I don't mean sometjing like "I hear voices telling me to kill everyone", but nasty, brutally cynical, sometimes outright violent thoughts. They feel alien to me, because on general level I consider myself "the good guy", but one the other hand they don't feel like someone else whispering me evil things.

2. Sometimes I feel like my mind has layers, where this monologue is the the most upper one with some lower, less verbalized layer which is only later formed into words. Doesn't happen often, but it feels like the lower layer is actually more capable because it's not constrained by language/words.

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Sometimes I have a "how awful would it be to do XY" moments. Usually something brutal. But it always makes me pay even more attention to not doing that very thing even accidentally because I definitely do not want to break stuff or hurt someone. Yet it makes me a bit nervous. What if I actually decided to do that? Fortunately it never happens when I'm under influence. Do I need help?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thought

I remember reading these are called parasitic(?) thoughts, uncontrollable and random thoughts, sometimes leading to more complex reasoning but ultimately almost on autopilot ; like the mind is just suggesting many different things at once and you just happen to notice one of those random thinking when it reaches the surface of your consciousness. I belive it also has to do with an anxious mind but I have nothing to back that up.

Since you seem to have doubt to the name you were fishing for, I've heard the term intrusive thoughts.

Thanks, that's the term I was looking for.

It's nice to see it's a common thing. I deal with the same thoughts from time to time and I'm not a violent, angry, depressed, or suicidal person.

I think the odd violent thought is to some extent normal. They certainly occur to me (tho I make no broader claim to my normalcy).

Of course, if they're causing you anxiety, you find them intrusive, or you fear acting on them, you should discuss it with somebody.

As others have said, these sound like typical intrusive thoughts.

The most common intrusive thoughts are, I believe, the "call of the void" ones (also known as "high place phenomenon"). You might be driving down the freeway and think "What if I drove into oncoming traffic?" or standing on a cliff at the end of a hike and think "What if I just walked off the ledge?" There's also some common less-morbid ones, like "What if I kissed my boss right now?" or "I just want to scream in the middle of this board meeting for no reason." Your immediate reaction should usually be to dismiss the thought as disturbing and move on with your life. If you find this dismissal to be difficult... that's when it can be worth checking out with a psychologist.

One hypothesis [0] for this phenomenon is that it is actually a post-fact reconstruction your brain is doing. Really, it's that your subconscious was uncomfortable with some imminent danger and forced you to compensate without thinking, and then you start thinking about what just happened. "Why did I suddenly step back from the ledge? Huh, must've been thinking about jumping off."

Another hypothesis I've read (which I can't find a good link to at the moment) is that it's some self-test mechanism. Your brain kind of sends a false "What if?" signal, and you should dismiss it because of the discomfort. This dismissal causes heightened awareness of the danger imminent and causes you to be more alert and thus be safer.

Again, though, these are pretty normal. That link I shared estimates that 50% of people have experienced the "call of the void". It's really only an issue if they're extraordinarily frequent (like... all the time), or if you genuinely feel tempted to act on them. Intrusive thoughts are not always indicative of suicidal ideation, but have also been linked to OCD and similar anxiety disorders (because they're a weird coping mechanism, when you think about it).

[0] https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2018/06/29/the-call-of-th...

Thank you, I feel more normal now

Same here. I never knew that "Intrusive thoughts" were a thing, and that they were a mostly normal thing. Mine don't seem like such a big deal now.

I've always had an odd pleasure at standing at the edge of cliffs. Something meditative about trying to overcome the feeling of unbalance. Think about it, you can be perfectly balanced standing on a cubic foot of rock. But if it's suspended hundreds of feet in the air, you would feel unbalanced (wind notwithstanding).

It turns out that this actually is dangerous. The feeling of imbalance is a "real" reaction your body has.

"The call of the void"

I think I remember reading somewhere that thinking about jumping when you are near a staircase, balcony, cliff, or something like that is pretty common, even if you don't have the least desire to commit suicide otherwise.

"Call of the void".

I seem to remember Sartre saying interesting things about this idea. Something about exercising your absolute freedom or something. As far as I know, it's perfectly normal.

I feel the same way on the 2nd layer you're talking about. I feel like I can plan out a big project in my head, and see it, and understand it. But when I try to verbalize it, I get really flustered. I just want to zap the idea into someone else's head so that I don't have to explain how it works, because I'll inevitably do a poor job until I start working on said project.

Trying to explain it is part of understanding it. Our brains do a really good job of lying to us. They tell us they understand the topic, while ignoring what we don't know because it's harder to conceptualize.

I think it was Feynman who said you don't understand something unless you can teach it.

As I understand it, this is correct. One's mind is made up of different, sometimes 'competing' parts, most of which we are not consciously aware of (most of the time).

It's widely believed that the 'thinking' part of our brain, the neo-cortex, is far less in control than the deeper, emotional parts, such as the limbic system.

In re: #1 The world is hell. Look at history: everything has been a psychotic nightmare for most people most of the time, except for a handful of people in the last few minutes. That's gonna leave a mark.

> Under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. We have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. We have never seen a totally sane human being.

~Robert Anton Wilson

So, yeah, don't pop off on the bus or anything and you're doing alright.

> "Oh, yeah, if I didn't have inner peace, I'd completely go psycho on all you guys all the time." ~Lenny, from "The Simpsons"

In re: #2 Of course your mind has layers. Who does your breathing when you're not watching it? Also, the nervous system in your gut is as large as your brain (just distributed, spread around, yeah?)

> 2. Sometimes I feel like my mind has layers, where this monologue is the the most upper one with some lower, less verbalized layer which is only later formed into words. Doesn't happen often, but it feels like the lower layer is actually more capable because it's not constrained by language/words.

I have something like that which is more akin to wandering formless thoughts to me. I don't think they are more capable though, I think it's an illusion given off by the deeper or soother sensation it instills into the mind.

I’m grateful someone put to words the layers thing. The sublayers seem to move much faster than the top most layer. I try to get my monologue out of its way, but it’s almost prohibitive against it. Like I have to have the same thought twice - once low level and again top. Only then may I move onward.

I do try to “step aside” sometimes though. I think meditation has helped me hone that technique.

Intrusive thoughts are normal. I get that too, stuff I'd never say out loud (and that I'd not agree with). I think it's just a natural way for our brain to bring up alternatives and test our assumptions.

On your second point I think that thinking in words actually slows down my thoughts too. I've read about it and try not to, but sometimes it doesn't feel right until I spell it out to myself like I'm explaining to a child.

One of my favourite series, Bojack Horseman, had an episode where you hear his internal monologue. It was scarily eye opening, because I've often found my inner monologue saying the exact same things, and I can't even remember how long this has been going on for.

Link to the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P4_E3GhUv8

I get really annoyed with people who twitter about crap old people say (example old Clint Eastwood). Have always believed they’re just losing control over their internal monologues, because you just -know- a lot of people think that way sometimes but aren’t bad people.

On layers, it’s like there is a second contrarian thread that pops up during controversial topics. Like some safety or auditing function.

It's our brain's job to give us lots of ideas. It's then our job to contextualize and filter those ideas, into "useful" and "discard".

You shouldn't feel guilty for having a brain which gives you outrageous ideas. You should only worry if you can't filter them appropriately.

My understanding is that part of schizophrenia can be experiencing those ideas as an external voice.

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