Comment by davnicwil | Hacker News Reader

Comment by davnicwil | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

Just as a couple of counter examples, in case you weren't aware of them

- Spain has an entrepeneurship visa, that any founder from anywhere can apply for. To apply I think you need to produce a credible business plan which shows it'll employ a certain number of citizens (I don't know if EU or Spanish specifically) eventually.

- France similarly has an entrepeneurship visa for founders from anywhere. I believe one of the requirements is to raise a certain amount of seed from specifically French accredited investors.

But, while I think it's better than you're implying, I definitely agree with your general thrust that visas need to adapt to embrace the growing popularity of people moving country not necessarily for employment, but to create new companies, jobs and growth.

It's unnecessarily cumbersome to do that basically everywhere (particularly in strong economies) right now, not just the EU, and that's a net loss for the citizens of the respective countries.

I've been a US expat in Europe for almost 20 years now.

I spent a lot of time in Belgium (to the point I became a citizen) and am now in Barcelona starting a FinTech.

Europe lacks both a risk-taking mentality and the framework to foster real entrepreneurship.

Spain was able to become much more competitive thanks to the austerity they were forced to go through post-crisis, but there are still way more bureaucratic hoops I have to jump through compared to what I would need to do to start my business in the US.

Incorporating an LLC alone (the equivalent of a c-corp is rarely used by startups over here) requires 3,000 EUR in the bank plus about the same amount in legal fees. In many other countries, it's a five-figure deposit to get a company set up. As the director of the company, I'm required to register as a freelancer so that I "can't fire myself and claim unemployment" which is ridiculous within itself.

Stock options don't really exist in Europe either, meaning I can't really issue them to attract talent. In otherwords, I need to access more capital at an earlier stage to grow my business in comparison to US competitors.

Finally, there is no such thing as chapter 11 bankruptcy within the EU, which limits risk-taking by businesses.

As for France, it's great that they have a visa. However, the legal and labor system is similar to Belgium, making founding and scaling a company a royal PITA. Belgium is a great place to work in a giant company (usually a bank or an insurer) but an absolutely lousy place to start a business, visa program or otherwise.

Europe needs to get this figured out. The continent has too much talent and too large of a market to not be able to be a global innovation force.

Funny how there's tons of companies in Europe still.

What it actually lacks is the silly money of SV VC.

It's got the entrepreneurs, and it's got the risk taking, it's just not got the massive VCs. So Europeans make different kinds of companies.

It costs £19 to start a business in the UK, and you can do it in 5 minutes online, so again, you're wrong on the causes. If you want to talk about crazy bureacracy just raise the subject of what state/s corp/c corp/state taxes/lawyers fees/craziness you have to do in America.

It's just that the money willing to invest in startups has all congregated in SV.

The vibe I got from his post was that the formalities starting a company aren't the bottleneck, perhaps more of a symptom instead. Just about everything he said applies to Finland too. Registering a company means putting ~3000 € on the table but sure, you can do it fairly quickly online.

Registering a company in Finland does not require 3000€ or even close to that. The figure is closer to 100€.

When I registered mine the minimum required amount of stock capital was 2500 €. That cash needed to be on the company's bank account before the registration was formalized. The notice to trade register to formally incorporate the company was 450 €.

Looks like the first rule was abolished last year. The notice to trade register now costs 275 € electronically, or 380 € in paper form.

Incorporating an LLC alone (the equivalent of a c-corp is rarely used by startups over here) requires 3,000 EUR in the bank plus about the same amount in legal fees.

At least when I did start a Sociedad Limitada (LLC) around 8 years ago these 3,000 euro did not need to be provided in cash. Most -all? I cannot remember- of them could be the value of things you owned, like a computer (serial number provided). The valuation of the computer or similar was taken at face value. In case of debt from your company they would take these goods used as capital.

There are initiatives in some cities, like Barcelona Activa, so make it easier to start a company (simpler forms too) but overall I agree it is still a bit bureaucratic.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com