Night train connecting Amsterdam to Scandinavian capitals under consideration | Hacker News Reader

Night train connecting Amsterdam to Scandinavian capitals under consideration

nltimes.nl

85 pointsingve69 comments

I cannot understand why they aren't more night trains. For me, it's the perfect way to travel. You have your own room which you can lock and do whatever you want, you have a bed, some storage room, a table, a sink, and if you spend a little more money, you even have a shower. I enjoyed using night trains when I was single, I enjoyed them as a couple, and I enjoy them very much now as a father, as it is basically the most comfortable way to travel with small children. For inner-European travel, it is often cheaper than flying, but much more comfortable. Who cares if takes 12 hours to Kopenhagen if you are sleeping 8 of them, and relaxing on a bed with your laptop, eating breakfast or looking out of the window drinking wine for the remaining 4. You arrive fresh, relaxed, with brushed teeth and shaven and you do not have to worry about getting into town from the airport, because the train station will usually be near the town center.

The problem seems to be that their once glamorous image has been lost. At least in Europe, they have gained a somewhat dubious reputation over the last decades.

Deutsche Bahn stopped their night train services 2 years ago, they sold if off completely to the Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB), which now run it with a profit. Their idea? Clean up the trains, fix the reputation and attract families. As a passenger, I am happy about that, they are also planning to extend the network. As a German, I am a bit sad that the Austrians are now running our night trains, but providing train services does not exactly seem to be the main area of expertise of Deutsche Bahn.

PS: in case anyone is wondering, this is what a standard 2 bed night train room looks like in Europe (only one bed is flipped out): https://fidelgastro83.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/img_1272.j...

Took a night train in central Europe once. It was a lot of money, and to reserve a whole compartment was even more. And if you don't get the whole compartment the other travelers may talk at all hours of the night on the phone...

Then there are border crossings where they check passports. Such checks make it impossible to get uninterrupted sleep.

I've taken such trains more than once, much more than once, and never actually encountered anyone who who talked on the phone at all hours of the night. You're right, it might happen.

As or border crossings, in the old days I would give the conductor my passport in the evening and get it back in the morning. Not often nowadays, thanks to the Schengen agreement. But no border guard has ever woken me up. (Edit: For scale, I think I've entered ten different countries on night trains, no idea how many trips in total.)

> And if you don't get the whole compartment the other travelers may talk at all hours of the night on the phone...

You don't have to accept such.

I recommend you ask them to tone down. If that does not work, talk to the conductor. Keep it friendly. As a last resort, you can try to interact in the conversation or play some music (like a DoS) but that might lead to one thing or another.

Recommend to not travel alone. That way, one person can stay on watch for your belongings. That, or don't have valuables with you (though you always do, such as your passport or ID). I remember using my ThinkPad as pillow in Central Europe. Which, btw, got electricity from the German train now driving through Balkan.

That being said, my experience is that other people also want to sleep at night. The majority does. Noise cancelling headset might help, but mind your belongings. If you end up with other people who are backpacking alone, they're in the same boat as you are. Effectively, you together defend your train coupee, in a kind of unwritten covenant. Either way, smart scam artists will be able to creep up when your defenses are down.

Check if you can book in advance. In Germany especially, this can save you 50-75% of the regular price, and you reserve a seat which means you can keep sleeping on that seat.

As a Dutchman, I would 100% use this. Been meaning to see more of Scandinavia (without flying there for pollution reasons) and I've also been meaning to use a night train after reading an article about it via HN, both for about 2-3 years now, but haven't gotten around to either yet!

I appreciate your emphasize on reducing flying. This seems like an unfortunately rare attitude though perhaps changing quickly.

If we reduce flying by half, how much would that reduce the climate change problem?

The world is still generating an incredible amount of electricity using coal.

http://h4labs.org/ive-got-another-stupid-idea-to-deal-with-c...

I was pleasantly surprised to see BlackRock recently come out against coal:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/16/blackr...

so we do nothing? attitudes like this don't help

I didn’t say that we do nothing. We have a few large problems like coal that have been known for decades.

https://www.google.org/rec.html?theme=greenz_dev

We’ve lost another 15 years and the now the idea is to guilt people into reducing a few percent a year.

Do the math. It’s not going to work.

> If we reduce flying by half, how much would that reduce the climate change problem?

You could say that about any sector of the economy. while coal is responsible for more ghg than aviation at the moment, air travel keeps growing. In general, there is no one low hanging fruit to solve the climate crisis. It will take lots and lots of different solutions all across the board. And just because BlackRock came out against coal, it doesn't get you off the hook.

Remember 13 years ago when Google identified coal as a huge problem? RE<C

https://www.google.org/rec.html?theme=greenz_dev

IIRC taking a single long flight per year (~5 hours in the air) is equivalent to commuting an hour by car each day (regional fuel efficiency notwithstanding). Airplanes burn the most fuel during the take off stage which makes short haul flights particularly bad. Replacing those flights with night trains and high speed rail would be an easy win for the environment.

Furthermore, while there are few practical alternatives to planes for intercontinental travel, we already have the means for fast, affordable, comfortable travel at the regional level (trains). So it makes a lot of sense to target short-haul air travel in densely populated areas for replacement by trains.

That sounds slightly excessive if flying long-haul is about on par with solo car travel per passenger per km. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49349566

Agreed with rest of points, it's a shame flying is so much cheaper. In the end it doesn't matter whether something is available if it's too expensive for mainstream use.

It's more about trying to prevent flying from increasing by 5x as huge new populations become affluent enough to start using planes regularly. Pushing back against the culture of flying while supporting alternative technologies that are easier to make zero carbon in the near term is the goal.

40% of the electricity globally is generated by coal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption#Ele...

80% is fossil fuels.

I’d be more worried about their daily electricity usage than one or two flights a year.

I think that attitude is becoming more common. Maybe it's just my bubble of the kind of friends I retain, but in general, at least everyone is aware of it and in my bubble most people actively consider at least some of what they do.

The biggest problem I find is people saying "we can't do anything anyway" or "it's never enough". I dunno man, if you actually thought you could make a difference, maybe we all together could? Look for green energy providers that actually invest in building new renewable energy plants, buy more second-hand items, don't fly short-haul when you can take a train or tell your boss that you want to at least offset such emissions, and break the pattern of going everywhere by car (if possible, I understand transit is difficult in the USA). And of course, vote the right way.

All of that shifts where your money goes and very few of these things would actually impact your daily life, perhaps the only major one being your commute if it is realistic for you to use the bus/train instead of a car. It might get a little longer, you'll have to accept that you get near other humans that you haven't hand-picked, but if coexisting is too much to ask...

We can do it, if only we accept the idea that we can tackle something bigger than any individual or even an individual industry.

As a Danish resident, I would 100% use this too

As a Dane living in Stockholm but with family in Belgium I would start living on that train. This would be amazing..

I wonder how they planned to route from Stockholm to Helsinki. Going around the gulf is a damn long sidetrack (1700 kilometers).

I feel rather disconnected from central Europe since the only practical way to get there involves flight or ship or a detour via St. Petersburg. On that front, this seems like an interesting project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki%E2%80%93Tallinn_Tunne...

I'd love to take a cozy train to hamsterdamn.

Maybe not related to this, but some time ago there were some thoughts about Hyperloop between Stockholm and Helsinki [1].

[1] https://hyperloop-one.com/fs-links-case-study

I am also very interested to know their solution to link Helsinki to Stockholm by train. It would be nice also to hear about this project from other sources too.

Anyway, having even just a Stockholm-Amsterdam night train would be great. But unfortunately I am not very optimistic on that...

I remember reading about ideas of a hyperloop tunnel between Stockholm and Helsinki a few years ago, that would be something! I would go to Finland more if that was a thing. Or just a regular underwater train tunnel! One can dream ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edit: Aw, second... Stared too long at the map to figure out the best route and took too long to post.

There is also an option to take Stockholm-Turku ferry (10 hours overnight) and Turku-Helsinki train (2 hours).

Going via Åland is definitely practicable--the eastern side is about 80-90 km of shallow sea, which means you need basically a series of trestle bridges similar to the Florida Overseas Railroad (which was 200 km end-to-end). The western side is more difficult, since it's 40km at its narrowest point, which is slightly longer than the Channel Tunnel, and most of the sea appears to be about 200-300m deep. But if you detour around a bit more to the north, you could again use a trestle bridge for most of it, and use a large bridge only to cross the deepest portion of it.

The point is crossing via Åland is firmly in the category of "we've crossed these kinds of gaps before."

A fixed link via Åland (if at all seriously considered) would not open within 30 years [imho, based on previous projects].

And it probably would be expensive enough that funding might be impossible to secure. It's not like it'd be an enabler for some sort of massive economic activity.

Shame we don't have a Musk to start The Suspending Company.

probably the idea is to put people (or traincars!) onto a ferry and then go to Helsinki harbour. That's not as hasslefree but still ok, even if it makes the journey a very long one for finns. alternatively, one could build a rail through the baltic states, linking up with the Berlin-Moscow trains in Poland.

Stupidly enough the width of the railway track is not the same in all European countries. Notably, relevant for the article, it's different in Finland. But also in Ireland, Portugal and Spain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_Europe

All of the HSR systems in Europe have standardized on 1435mm. (The highest-speed line in Finland is the 220km/h link between Helsinki and Laht, which is on the slowest end of high speed rail).

The integration of the Baltic states into the European HSR system, Rail Baltica, including the Helsinki/Tallinn tunnel, are planned to be 1435mm.

Has that tunnel moved beyond the "wild dream" stage?

https://www.dezeen.com/2019/11/21/zaha-hadid-architects-ulem... BTW. I'm definitely going to go there, by train, the year Rail Baltica is finished.

Variable gauge trains help overcome this problem:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge

I once took a night train from Barcelona to Paris that changed gauge at the border. It slowed to a walking pace and travelled through a shed like structure that housed the equipment. There was some mild clunking and clanging from underneath as we slid over the mechanism. Quite impressive.

not sure, what's requiring billions of euros, a full, factory new train (e.g. classic cars and a locomotive) built for relative high-speeds on existing rails (e.g. maxing out at 160 to 200km/h) costs around 20-30Mio euros iirc (Austrian Railjets). If you go the used, traditional car route, you are more realistically looking at 10Mio euros max.

So: the only problem is getting your route approved by all states network operators, which is a complex problem of congestion, neglect and slow, european style processes. Case in point (no joke): a hotel sued the Deutsche Bahn because some train tracks were not operating within the permitted legal framework. Now you say: that's a democratic, rule-of-law society. I say: the train has been there for 90 years, no living human has ever been at a disadvantage because the state pushed trough with the train without proper permissions...

And of course, the rail needs to be high speed, because otherwise the environment, rail service companies and people could actually profit from the latter rediscovering how cheap and nice train travel could be... (for example: a single ICE (german high speed train, which generally goes 160-200km/h, because there is no dedicated high-speed-track) costs at least thrice the aforementioned Railjet and also more maintenance (higher safety margins for higher speeds) - now talk about the high cost of car/bus-rivaling rail again)

I used to take the night train to go back to my parents as a student back in France. Was a nice feeling, having a bed and reading a good book during the night while enjoying the scenery and the relaxing sound of the tracks under you. I really miss it and would love doing it again. They removed those trains like 10 years ago.

As someone that loves to travel by train, I would appreciate to have this opportunity, but as prices usually go on European wide trains, I doubt that the prices would be competitive to flying. :\

I once tried to plan such a train trip – I travel semi-regularly between Scandinavia and Central Europe – and while I wouldn't mind to take a two day trip as a bit of an adventure, the price was prohibitively expensive.

This is a nice idea though, I could see it being popular if they manage to keep the price reasonable. The journey itself could actually become part of the experience.

Holidays in the sun seem to be out of fashion in Sweden right now. Everyone is talking and doing hemesters and tours within Sweden. Trains to Hamburg would be really popular for nearby tourism.

This was definitely true last summer, when it was trendy to flight-shame. But human nature being what it is, the itch to travel to the sun is inevitably creeping back, and I’ve noticed several colleagues returning from breaks in Bali, Goa, Thailand and Sri Lanka. They just don’t talk very much about it.

Is hemester a play on words with hemma and semester, i.e. a vacation at home?

Edit: Yes.

I missed yet another easyJet plane from Berlin last month. Damn gate closing 45 min before flight. Anyway, I took a night bus from Berlin to Amsterdam. Among the many amenities on the €30, 9 hour Flixbus were Ukrainians with excessive amounts of liquor to share. I arrived at 7am, 3 hours earlier than the next plane or train.

Yes, please. I fondly remember taking trips on the night train to France when I was little.

Rail is a great semi-long distance (<= 500mi/800km) mode of transportation in general. It's unfortunate that it's so expensive to construct (high speed) railways.

Is it really that much more expensive as an airport, or asphalt travel? I'm just curious whether you have found some pricing details somewhere :)

Rail networks require land for tracks. Acquiring new land for new networks is very expensive. Airspace is sort of abundant.

Both modes of transport require a lot of energy. Airline fuel is apparently virtually untaxed. Train operators, on the other hand, pay the full price for electricity.

I've never used one but imagining to go by night train from one part of Europe to another gives me a feeling of travelling somewhere as experience instead of it being a chore where being-en-route rather feels like not-being-there-yet.

For my next vacation I’m planning on taking the train from Seattle to San Francisco, for exactly this reason. I’ve told people about this and they all think I’m crazy: “It costs as much as flying and takes 22 hours, why would you do that?“ But they’re not getting that the train ride is the point.

Do it! The coast starlight is great. I have taken it a few times from Los Angeles to Oakland. It is so relaxing, the diner car is great and so is the observation car which is a fantastic place to camp out with a book. I've been meaning to take it up to Seattle. I'm sure it's beautiful going through Oregon and Northern California. When you take it to Los Angeles you go right by vendenberg air force base and the Space X and Nasa hangers.

Another upvote for this plan. I'm from the East Bay, in Seattle now, train is great to get down there. The time can be productive too. And the view is great.

another point is that by having to use more time for long distance travel, the relation between the substantial energy cost and the travel time becomes more reasonable from a "what if everyone uses the possibility to travel long distances for cheap" perspective

Intercity rail is great. In Germany it allows people to self select the density and lifestyle they desire, while still working in bigger agglomeration. I can see this being a big economic and quality of life benefit.

I'd love for one connecting through the Baltics to Helsinki.

That would unlock a huge part of Europe that is right now only accessible via airtravel (if you value your life).

> huge part of Europe that is right now only accessible via airtravel (if you value your life).

What do you mean by that? For who it would open, Baltics or Fins?

For everybody that does business in the region.

Helsinki<->Tallin<->Riga<->Vilnius<->Warsaw<->Poznan<->Berlin<->Hannover<->Amsterdam would be a very useful connection to have.

East of Poznan road travel gets more and more dangerous, especially with the winter weather thrown in. Being able to visit those parts of Europe year round without having to go by air would be something I would definitely make use of, especially on an overnight connection.

Wow, that looks like a great route. I had to check it on a Map to see what shape it would make. It has a nice curve to it :)

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Helsinki,+Finland/Tallinn,+E...

I'm travelling from The Netherlands to Berlin next week and although the train is comfortable. It's a bit annoying that it has so many stops in between. (taking the DB train, not the high speed one).

The route you're talking about is basically Rail Baltica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica) and the Helsinki-Tallinn Tunnel. The first project is agreed upon in theory, and the latter one is also included on long-range plans, although there is some criticism of the project on grounds such as financial feasibility and other issues (like the tracks being the only 1435mm track in these countries, who normally use 1520mm (or 1524mm) gauge).

Very easy safe route, leaving lunchtime on Tuesday from Amsterdam will get you the ferry from Travemünde Tuesday evening (depart 3AM wed morning), arriving 0900 Thursday morning in Helsinki

East of Poznan? I leave east of Poznan and the roads are good in winter, even when we have more snow than the recent winters.

Most drivers know how to behave in such conditions and drive more slowly (and have winter tires). And roads are mostly kept in good condition (if you allow 1-2 day after first heavy snow during winter).

Not sure how the conditions are in other countries during the winter.

Why does valuing your life have to do with it? It takes a fair bit of time, but there's a ferry to Helsinki from Germany that takes a day, a 5 hour train from Copenhagen to Stockholm, an overnight ferry Copenhagen to Oslo etc.

Have you ever driven from Amsterdam to Riga? I have. It's not something I care to repeat. Several near misses on such a distance is not something that I care for.

Train to Stockholm and then ferry to Riga

7AM Wed day trip arrives 2340, stay overnight, then get the 5PM Thursday evening ferry to Riga, arriving Friday morning.

Is Finland now officially Scandinavian? Or is this some other Helsinki they speak of.

Looks like a nice project, then I don't have to drive up anymore.

No not really AFAICT. It’s part of the Nordics though.

Technically Finland is not a part of Scandinavia, but neither is Iceland nor Greenland. However Finland is very much a part of the Nordic Countries (and so is Iceland and Greenland, et al.). And people sort of use the terms “Scandinavia” and “The Nordic Countries” interchangeably, as the distinction isn’t that important[1]. So for for all intents and purposes (barring being pedantic) Finland is a part of Scandinavia.

[1]: I’m not an expert on this, but I doubt there are many inter-Scandinavian cooperation happening any more that excludes the other Nordic Countries.

⇧ What he said :)

Is a night train the same thing as a sleeper?

Night Bus

Sleeper Train, no?

i think this nightline trend is largely pointless. there isnt much traffic between these aside of a bunch of tourists. but that doesn't mean i wouldn't use it, once or twice. scandinavia is the kind of place i like to hate for trying to be better than everywhere, but would like to see anyway, just in case i am wrong and it actually is. what we do need is high speed infrastructure to more cities and metro lines in more cities if we want to improve accessibility. Edit: having actually read the thing, i see this is an extension of an hsl line to groningen. i'd love to see that line happen. and if the night train becomes an hsl as well, maybe the project isn't quite so doomed from the start. after all, a one hour trip on the hsl would make commuting between amsterdam and up to Bremen possible.

You might enjoy reading these articles about how high speed rail is detrimental to the European rail network.

1. https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/12/high-speed-trains-ar...

2. https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/12/high-speed-trains-ar...

Sleeper trains are the best in my opinion. You board, shut your eyes, and when you wake up, you've arrived. No wasted time. A lot cheaper and a lot more pleasant than this "high speed" malarky. Especially now that "high speed" has come to equate "invasive security checks".

your opinion is not the only possible opinion. I used the hsl to paris once. it was amazing. In three hours i was home and could go on with my life. a plane would not have been faster. paris is a little bit too far to commute these days but one would imagine people will use it to commute to brussels. that's also the real weakness of sleeper trains: they are only useful for tourists. whereas most trains are being used for home-work commute.

Night trains generally don't do high speed due to comfort issues. Once the fixed link across Fehmarn is completed I would guestimate the travel time between Amsterdam and Stockholm to be about 12 hours or so, perfect for dinner on the train and then a good night's sleep. Also, if the scheduling of the train is properly constructed, I would assume quite a few people from Finland, Sweden and Denmark working in Brussels would take that train regularly.

"scandinavia is the kind of place i like to hate for trying to be better than everywhere"

I think you might enjoy reading[1] :)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

i did travel by sleeping bus. it was doable but no fun. sleeping on a moving vehicle is not something that will work for everyone. some people can, some can't. there's a reason these faded out of existence in the airplane age. besides, it remains somewhat of a gimmick that is completely outside of the core business of rail transport: transporting commuters.

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