Snowmobiler finds family of five stuck in frozen wilderness | Hacker News Reader

Snowmobiler finds family of five stuck in frozen wilderness

cbc.ca

127 pointscolinprince89 comments

Leaving the car was probably not a good idea. The ones who left the car were lucky to be found alive.

I still remember this story where the husband left the car to find help.

https://www.oregonlive.com/oregonianextra/2007/11/kimfamily....

It is possible to survive a pretty long time in a car as it provides the shelter you need.

From the article: The Kim family -- parents James and Kati and children Penelope, 4, and Sabine, 7 months -- disappeared Nov. 25, 2006 as they drove to Gold Beach from Merlin, just north of Grants Pass off Interstate 5. Kati Kim, 30, and her daughters were found Dec. 4 with the car after being stuck in the snow for nine days with few supplies. James Kim, 35, was found dead two days later in a creek. He had walked more than 16 miles in the cold and snow in a futile effort to get help.

They always find the car first, especially if it's going to be visible from the air.

There's just too many stories of people who decided to leave just before the car was found, and then they were found dead some short distance away due to under-estimating how hard it would be to travel.

That's the key for S&R, make it easy to spot from the air, and know it's NEW stuff rather than old.

Stay near the car, make obvious signs pointing to the car.

On the other hand, there was Jerry William McDonald who got stranded a few years after the Kim family, also in Oregon [1]. He did stay with the car, and died of starvation and/or hypothermia after 70 days in the car.

At some point trying to walk out, as bad as that is, gives you a better overall chance of surviving than waiting for rescue. The trick is figuring out when that is.

I've heard of only one incident where the stranded people had no trouble with making that decision. They were stranded in a well stocked RV, in a place they knew they were very likely to be found except by a search party specifically looking for them. They had satellite radio and TV, and so were able to watch the news reports about the search, and see when the search was called off, and so it was now either walk out or try to survive the entire winter there. They successfully had someone walk out.

[1] https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2011/05/ma...

^likely^unlikely

Thanks for this story. I wonder what I would do.

I used to do Search and Rescue and I can absolutely tell you in all cases the best thing to do when lost is to stay put. Unless you are in immediate danger, or can move to a high point to get a cell signal but remain within visual range of your car/tent/etc. don't leave.

SAR teams only have the resources to search a relatively small area (dozens of square miles at most), so if you start wandering off from your point last known (which we determine based on interviews with people with knowledge of your plans, tire tracks, open gates, cell phone pings, and other clues) you are removing yourself from the area where professional searchers and first responders are looking for you.

Your time should be spent trying to create a signal. Make a small fire that you can keep under control and burn rubber/plastic to create dark smoke. Lay out reflective materials. Whistle, clap, or yell every 15 minutes. Keep listening for rescuers calling out.

Your justification assumes you're being searched for. If you learn that the search has been called off, is it still always better to stay put?

A generic signal like smoke could work even when explicit search is called off.

In this specific case, broken down car has gasoline and battery and even good fuel source (foams will a lot of smoke and thanks to fire retardant will burn long), making a fire is quite trivial with such means.

James Kim was one of the early online streamer personalities, ran CNET product reviews watchable over the web but also via TiVo and other similar devices.

I remember how surreal it was to hear his fate.

Indeed. I remember watching him on Fresh Gear, which aired on ZDTV (later became TechTV).

Or this story from Sweden

"A Swedish man has survived being trapped in his snow-covered car for two months without food"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17088173

That works with clean water. Most people can go a few days to a week without water ("3 days" is an oft-quoted factoid), but that's about it.

Having water, survival without food is hard limited on a person's body fat and their metabolic rate. For example, I have 80 lbs / 36 kg of sacrificial body mass. Assume extracting 3400 kcal/lbs of fat and a 2000 kcal/day RMR (let's call it 2500 because of activity). That works out to ~109 days / ~3.5 months of survival.

IANAD: Also helpful to prevent death & long-term damage would be:

- electrolytes and minerals (Na, K, Mg, Ca, Fe)

- vitamins (c, b12, a, b-complex, e, k, d)

- small quantities of lipids to empty the gallbladder to prevent gallstones.

To accomplish this, a six-month supply of multivitamins, a dried electrolyte mix and a large bottle of shelf-stable oil would be the bare-minimum. (Do the rationing math ahead-of-time so that you don't die.)

Even better would be to avoid this scenario altogether:

- carry a properly-registered GPS PLB ($250-400 USD) with a maintained battery (I saw one model of PLB lasted 5 years, after which it needed replacement at a dealer for an unspecified cost. It also has a hard limit on the number of self tests that can be performed without a battery replacement service. This is exactly why we need the right-to-repair. I came across a PLB with an user-replaceable battery, but it's $1000 USD and the batteries cost $175 USD (when it costs about $15 to make), so clearly the PLB business-model is a razor-blade/inkjet-printer economy that is all about planned-obsolescence and lock-in.)

- a signaling mirror (with aiming hole)

- a multi-chamber, insanely-loud, rescue whistle

Don't forget about:

- source of fire

- waterproof (perhaps also fireproof and thermal) blanket.

- sharp long shovel

- knife

- rope

The lower down the list, the more optional it is.

Another learning from this story is that SMS (cell phone text message) can get through even when you think you don't have reception, and based on the weather. Also phones will keep trying to send them until they can. So it's always worth sending a text for help with your exact coordinate.

Also, calling emergency services will use any available network, so even if your normal provider has no coverage your call might still get through if you're within range of a competitor's tower.

That is true, but the cell reception is abysmal in that area. I drive out there frequently and do not have cell reception 10-15 km closer to the tower than where they presumptively were.

It wasn't necessarily that he left the car, but that he crossed a creek. Once you touch water in winter, you're in big trouble.

It's good to stay sheltered if help is coming. But at the time, I remember people saying that rescuers found the car thanks to finding Kim's footprints.

When I broke my talus (ankle bone) in the middle of the snowy forest I couldn't walk. I hadn't seen anyone all day and thought I was screwed. Then a few minutes later a guy shows up on a snowmobile.

I guess angels ride snowmobiles.

I think you mean angels.

Yeah. Angles drive those Tesla pickups, it's the only vehicle they can fit in.

We've fixed the typo in the GP.

You edited a user's comment to fix a minor typo? Is that something you do often?

hes the real angle hear.

I think they have an AI that detects puns and sets off a bat signal.

Never leave the car unless you put it in the river or lake. Buy some emergency blankets like the Coghlans 8235[1]. These things are small, cheap, and work. Buy a bunch, they are little bigger than a pack of cards. Have an actual emergency kit in your car. If you are in the north a lot, then make sure to have some kind of food in the car. Also, the modern rechargeable electric lantern is a great thing. Do not run the car unless the exhaust is clear.

When the wind dies down, put one of those blankets on the roof[2] (use you favorite method to attach (e.g. bungee cords)). Also, a grain shovel works a whole lot better than most snow shovels.

1) https://www.walmart.com/ip/Coghlans-8235-Emergency-Blanket/2...

2) those blankets are super reflective and will get noticed

On top of that advice, when I travel in winter, I just throw boots (with good socks) and extra winter stuff in a bin (gloves, scarfs etc).

Basically it is "what would I put on if I were to go outside and dig my car out and it was ultra cold"...and what would I put on the kids ... everyone's stuff just gets thrown in.

Just throwing it all in a bin is handy for quick packing, and if I don't need it quick unpacking.

That's on top of the usual emergency kit, blankets, etc.

This reminds me of one of the best reads on the internet:

The Hunt for the Death Valley Germans

https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/the-hu...

The OP story however, has a much happier ending.

Reminds me of a family that got lost while crossing the Sahara: https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/bookauth/sahar...

Thank you for the very long, interesting, Sunday read. I was instantly captured by the retelling, and it reminds me of all the truly uncharted areas in the world.

Generally speaking the route to a major city is usually pretty much to head to a big main road and follow that.

I know these things happen but I have to wonder when they noticed a lack of other traffic, smaller roads, strange roads, on their way to a big city.

Especially in Canada. The directions are basically to get on the highway, and stay on it for 1000km

In this case, it's actually 3000km on Highway 1, that's it, the main highway in Canada and pretty much the only real highway to get anywhere across Saskatchewan to South Western Ontario.

They would have no reason to leave this highway unless maybe they wanted to take the shorter route through the states, but I have no clue how they could have ended up where they were in the middle of nowhere not even on a road. Glad they were ok, but jeez, common sense or look at a map at least once.

With a million or so trips between major Canadian cities during the winter, a few of them doing something silly is almost expected.

Having driven through northern BC quite a bit, there’s been dozens of times where a rockslide / logging truck rollover / construction has caused a detour off the highway and down some remote roads. Not saying that’s what happened to them, but rather that it’s best to be prepared because you never know what will happen.

Haha yeah, makes sense over there, but they were in the prairies, the flatest area in Canada! I guess the highway could have got blocked somehow and you have to take a backroad detour, but you'd probably be following a stream of traffic as well in that case.

Always agree it's best to look at a map to get a feel for the route or at least have one ready.

I didn’t get a chance to read the article because there is a malicious ad being served from the CBC website that re-directed me to a fake SHAW Cable web site.

Same here. How in the world do they let these ads through!

Serious question: Why on earth would you not use an ad blocker?

Cause I’m on my phone

Depending on the phone (works on Android):

Firefox and ublock

There's also Brave. I've taken to using it for my news browsing on my Android device.

Stories like this make me think that the money I am spending on my Garmin Inreach is maybe not a waste.

I also have a Garmin InReach and it is a littel 3 ounce game changer, regarding being safe in remote areas of wilderness. I very recently spent four hard days in deep wet snow in the Glacier Peak Wilderness, and was able to communicate that I was safe to my family over the InReach, plus get regularly updated high quality weather reports. The battery also did fine. I was confident I could get help if I was out there longer. The Garmin Fenix 6x GPS watch is also a life saving piece of tech, since it's so rugged, the battery lasts long and it has maps of everywhere built in.

As I wrote on another thread recently, I come from a time when "send help" communications weren't the norm and I resist a bit the notion that you--either as an individual or a group leader--are under a moral obligation to make such communications abilities the norm to the degree possible.

That said. I'd probably get an InReach these days if I were going to spend significant time in remote areas. Leaving your plans with people was always a bit of a tricky exercise. You haven't checked in by a specific time. Now what? Go to the trailhead if that's even practical? Call in SAR? Give them another few hours/a day?

You aren't under a moral obligation? It's just that you might die and most people are willing to compromise pretty hard on principles to get rescued instead of dying.

I can see a principled stance of getting a PLB and knowing you'll activate it if you believe you'll likely die or be seriously injured without rescue, otherwise it's just a ballast you're carrying. But just foregoing one altogether seems like a very strange place to draw the line.

I’m not really drawing a line. I just don’t put it in the same category as map and compass. I don’t have one but it’s not a matter of principle. I’m just not regularly enough doing sufficiently remote activities where having one seems like basic prudence.

I empathize.. growing up, you never wanted to be that guy that had to call for help, and I still don't - it's a mark of failure to be rescued - but it's better than dying. The tech probably makes it too easy for people to use it as an easy out, but it's better to have and not need it, etc. If you have a family depending on you, you've got a moral obligation to not be a dumbass, and that includes keeping appropriate tools on hand in case you end up inviting the characterization.

I would use my Inreach only in a really dire situation but if that ever happens it’s great to have one. I once used it notify of a severely dehydrated hiker who got continually worse even after being given water and food. They first sent a ranger. I left once the ranger was there but an hour later I saw a helicopter going to that spot so I assume it was really bad and the Inreach may have saved a life.

Or just take the multiple choice test, get a ham radio license, and buy a $30 radio and a $10 antenna.

A ham radio is good to have, but in many remote places will be useless if you can't reach a repeater. I would definitely take a PLB and not rely solely on my HT if I was going somewhere remote.

With some elevation (like standing on your car) and a cheap 6 foot antenna (made of PVC for $10 or so) I've hit repeaters 100s of miles away. But sure if you are in worse terrain you might need a HF radio instead of a 2M/440cm HT.

The radio is a nice thing to have, but it isn't a realistic substitute for a PLB when you leave civilization. Even if the satellite beacon is received only intermittently and can't get GPS fix or doesn't have GPS the system will figure out where it is in maybe an hour or so anyway (Doppler measurement) and any single message is an unambiguous call for rescue.

How much does such a set up weigh? The InReach is small and has excellent battery lifetime.

Well an HT with some skill/training and a directional antenna can use various satellites as repeaters for 100% coverage world wide. Granted the windows are short and not that many times a day. HF rigs are a bit bigger, about the size of a small (single DIN) car radio or CB. Examples like the yaesu ft-891, ft-818, or icom ic-7100. So easy to have in a car, not so easy to carry hiking.

Others radios focus more on being portable and include batteries for hikers and SOTA (Summits on The Air). Things like the KX2, Xeigo X5105, or the new Icom IC-705 (announced but not shipping). The IC-705 actually uses the same battery as their HTs.

HF radio use (at least in the USA) requires the general license, which is a a bit harder of a multiple choice test. The easiest license is a tech which gets you privileges on the 2M and higher bands.

The digital modes give even a very modest radio amazing range. A friend demo'd a (5 watts) FT-817 in a poor location (building patio surrounded by trees, crappy antenna (random 20+ foot wire attached to the antenna port with an alligator clip, terrible antenna placement (thrown over a 8 foot tall tree branch) and was able to reach people in Ohio from California.

That's a whole lot of work to go through to avoid carrying a 4 ounce satellite PLB.

The basic Technician license in US is not limited to 2m and higher - that's merely where you have all the privileges. But you also get SSB and CW on 10m, and CW only on 15m, 40m, and 80m; all of these up to 200W PEP.

Keep in mind that if you're using a PLB, there's a good chance you have broken an arm or leg and won't be able to set up a large device.

One of the advantages of an inReach is that you could activate it with a single button press even with major injuries.

I'm an extra and a VE. I take a radio with me on all of my back country camping trips and have a solar+battery repeater set up in my 4x4. I've ended up many places where neither radio could get out to anyone simplex and no repeaters were in range. Amateur radio works great when you have a communications plan and know you'll be in range (like when you're working with a group) but for small groups/solo back country and new areas I'll be picking up either a PLB or an inreach for this season. Others mentioned HF, I don't think you can expect to be able to string a wire dipole up and transit if you break your ankle or something ~ assuming the solar conditions allow you to get out anyway.

Also I meet lots of people who have taken the test and bought the $30 radio but don't know how to use it. Practice, practice, practice. I look at group camping trips as an opportunity to practice wilderness protocol and usually come back with a bunch of notes on what worked/didn't.

There's a fairly recent story about a ham using satellite communications when he and his son got their vehicle stuck in mud out in the wilderness. I can't find the link at the moment, but they were practiced at it beforehand and I'm guessing very happy that they were.

If you don't want to pay a subscription, a good option is a Personal Locator Beacon (commonly abbreviated to PLB). Another advantage they have is that the batteries last for 5 years or more, and usually send a stronger signal (this was a couple of years ago, don't know if it has changed). The disadvantage is that they don't do messaging.

Search and Rescue strongly prefers the two-way beacons. One way PLBs have a high false positive/accidental activation rate. There are anecdotal reports of one-way PLB activation not being acted on because local SAR gets too many of them.

The cost of the subscription is a tiny amount compared to the real financial costs of the situations they allow us to avoid.

I didn't know that. I thought the PLBs would have some feature to prevent accidental activation. But then, people have to pick up a phone and dial a specific 3 digit sequence to call for emergency, and the thing is abused too often, so, yeah, I believe it.

> Search and Rescue strongly prefers the two-way beacons

Do you have any source on that? I'm genuinely curious.

How did they not have warm clothing? It was -30 degrees in Calgary last week. Like all week.

And how do you wind up so far off the Trans Canada? Then again, drivers in Calgary are the worst..

Could have ended badly like this grim incident that was linked here before https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/the-hu...

I'm willing to bet these people were following automated directions.

My family and I were once driving from Chicago to my home town 6 hours to the southwest.

A blizzard kicked up, and we were driving according to Google directions. It took us off of the main roads, and we found ourselves on unpopulated gravel roads in the middle of nowhere Illinois totally FUCKED of we had crashed.

I've seen it over and over again. You trying to get somewhere. There are clear normal routes to that place. And then Google directions start to direct you to these fucking country roads to try and finesse some kind of "faster route" for you without even prompting you for a route change. It just directs you into some dumb fuck route that no one would ever take in the right mind.

I've learned to watch Google directions like a hawk. I was once driving up from downstate, and it started to take us off the main road. I told my friend to stop and turn around, get back on the main highway. If we had taken the route Google recommended, we would have gone hours out of our way on gravel country roads to get around a bit of minor traffic on the main road.

Why did you obey Google and turn off the main roads?

Seems like Google (etc.) could add a "avoid roads that aren't well-traveled" feature with the data they already have.

The data they use to figure out whether traffic is light or heavy (GPS location, speed, heading, path, etc.) could also be used to figure out whether roads are well-traveled.

And they could even throw in month or season (or weather) as a variable. If the road is well-traveled in the summer but not in the winter, maybe there's a reason.

This could be useful not only for winter but also for other issues like people who are driving an unreliable car or are low on gas (or not good about filling it up).

During the last major fire season in California the traffic was incredibly slow on the main interstate I was on. Maps suggested a detour on a side highway because nobody was taking it. But it turned out that nobody was taking it because it was literally on fire, so I had to find my way back to the interstate.

That one is going to be a little trickier to detect!

I guess you could do some real time analysis and note that the number of people passing through this or that segment has dropped suspiciously below what it averages for that day of the week, time of day, etc.

Which actually might be useful for other types of road closures like construction, so maybe not an unreasonable goal to aim for.

It seems like it would be worth including data from weather and emergency services. Another gripe I have is that it seems like pedestrian data is inadvertently used to determine road speeds in dense urban areas, so a block that is literally gridlocked for an hour will still be recommended by maps.

Same thing in places that flood.

this is why I am happy I got to do some bush craft holidays. The family had shelter and by the looks of it, lots of trees to start a fire for warmth.

Don’t drive in the snow without a winch.

Getting downvoted, but honestly not a bad piece of advice. There have been a couple occasions where a winch would have been a lot more convenient for getting me out of the snow than digging with a shovel was.

Don't think I'll go out and buy one. But if I was planning to go somewhere actually remote, I would seriously consider it.

When my Dad worked for Pacific Bell, they had to fix a line up a mountain road during a storm[1]. They used a winch to pull them up the road for the final couple of miles. They also used it to make sure they didn't get lost on the way back to the truck.

1) Dad had a .... colorful description of the events and people that lead to this ill advised decision. I am truly saddened that I did not inherit his mastery of the invective.

I'd probably start with good snow tires, 12V compressor so you can air down, traction boards a shovel. Winches are expensive and need to be mounted to your truck or to a hitch receiver. Better advice in this case was to drive on the highway.

This is the type of winch that came to mind for me. [1] Basically something you can attach to your tow hook and then around a tree or pole or whatever else to inch your way out of a jam.

Which isn't to say that the things you listed aren't also worth having along.

[1] https://www.harborfreight.com/1200-lb-capacity-cable-puller-...

Oh, a come along, makes sense. I thought you meant a dedicated 12V winch, ex. Warn.

Maybe if you don't understand how to drive in snow. But most people who cant drive is snow also cannot safely operate a winch. This is terrible advice.

Maybe trying to take a detour like these guys (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-01-07-mn-949-st...) Ended up making a movie about that family. I think back in that situation the highway was closed due to snow.

Calgary to Toronto is a no brainer. Every Canadian learns about the TransCanada highway. I seriously wonder about their claims.

Exactly what I was thinking. How can you get lost on a such an easy road?

They were 60km off the main road. That didn’t give them any clues? Like worsening road condition. A road between two major cities of mud and ice? That’s just kinda common sense.

I'm reminded of the woman who kept driving for 810 miles, complete with sleeping overnight in her car, for what was supposed to be a 90-mile trip to a neighboring city. https://www.cnet.com/news/gps-sends-belgian-woman-to-croatia...

I had the same thought.

If they were starting out in Manitoba, I could see them getting lost getting to highway 1.

But starting in Calgary? You get on the freeway and stay on it the whole way.

Drivers in Calgary can't even figure out which direction to go on one-way streets.

Everyone but people in Southwestern Ontario that is!

The shortest route is going through the US south of the Lake Michigan, but this still doesn't explain how they ended up in Southeast Manitoba, and especially off of Highway 12.

Also important to know that Google Maps sometimes draws roads where there aren't actual roads - there are trails that are marked like they are roads in a few places that I know about and I've attempted to get Google to correct them because a) it's private property and b) it's not safe to travel there in the winter.

Check out the 2010 movie frozen about skiers getting stuck on a lift.

Not the best movie, but I love this idea of just how close we live to total disaster... And all it takes is a few small missteps. We think we have a lot more control over our lives than we really do.

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