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Comment by jeroenhd | Hacker News Reader

This was to be expected, when Epic Games, notorious for not giving a rat's ass about Linux support, acquired the studio behind Rocket League. Other titles from studios bought by Epic will likely follow if they have not already.

This does pose the question on what happens to Linux players who have invested into digital purchases. Online functionality will be disabled so all items will basically be void and the game becomes mostly worthless.

I also wonder if this means that Rocket League will not run on Google Stadia and its competitors, as those platforms mostly run on Linux systems.

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It's weird because Unreal Engine 4 is actually pretty well supported on Linux. I wrote a substantial projection art piece recently that used a ton of low level UE4 features, including native C++ modules, and it all worked flawlessly on Linux[0]

0. https://youtu.be/ggRcDQZWD_8?t=1284

Rocket League uses UE3, not UE4 (albeit heavily modded UE3)

I don't think the engine itself would be the problem. There might be a piece of middleware that breaks support through. Both Linux distros and MacOS are transitioning to x64-only and I can imagine a proprietary piece of third-party middleware doesn't support proper x64 or something making it impossible to upgrade the system to support modern OS's.

> Both Linux distros and MacOS are transitioning to x64-only

I think this isn’t true.

Although more Linux distros aren’t shipping full x86 images anymore, I don’t think that actually impacts x86 support on AMD64 setups. Some limited amount of x86 packages continue to be provided for running Wine and legacy proprietary software.

macOS is killing the ability to run 32 bit code at all. There’s not much of a true technical reason to do this that I’m aware of, it’s a decision similar to Windows disallowing 16 bit software in 64 bit Windows.

Under Linux AMD64 not only can you run 32 bit software, you can still create 16 bit code segments as well. No vm8086, but it can still be used for emulating old Windows applications.

The EGS doesn't run on Linux though, and Rocket League is leaving Steam.

Rocket League is leaving Steam?!? I guess I shouldn't be surprised but that is very annoying. I'm definitely not looking forward to the fracturing landscape that is ahead.

A fractured landscape is a competitive one. Valve had several years of high margins (meaning more money to them, less to the people that made games) and stagnation of the Steam platform. I prefer this fracturing to the monoculture.

It would be nice if any of the game stores would actually compete instead of paying for exclusives. Steam has 1000x the features of any of the other stores. Origin has had probably a decade to catch up and yet its just falling further behind.

All this fracturing means for end users is more rootkit launchers to install and less games for linux users.

It's a chicken and an egg problem. Developers won't come until you have marketshare, and users won't come until you have games. Paying for exclusives is a way to bootstrap a chicken without an egg.

Worked real well for TV. Lots of people went back to piracy because you have to be on so many platforms.

I guess it's not a fair comparison though, since you can't really subscribe to steam. So I regret saying anything.

Has anyone tried that model? "Pay us $30/mo and play whatever you want."

EA has this with Origin Access (2 tiers, $5m/$30y and $15m/$100y), alongside Ubisoft with UPlay+ ($15m). And I guess platforms like Stadia would fall under this category.

Of course, the games are specific to the publisher or the partnerships the platform has.

See also Xbox Game Pass for PC (10+ games, Windows 10), and VivePort Infinity (for VR, 600+ games).

Playstation Now for PS4/PC (800+ games, PS4 / Windows)

I understand that side of it but valve goes above and beyond so much that even if Epic or Origin had huge user counts I seriously doubt they would put the effort in to building features like "remote play together" which streams a game to other people and streams their controllers back to you so you can all play the same local coop game. Or Proton which allows playing games on linux.

Valve even has linux kernel devs around who fix bugs in drivers for gaming hardware.

Steam may have been a monopoly but it was a pretty good one for the end user.

Nonsense. Steam as a platform is head and shoulders above where it was a year ago.

All my Windows exclusive games appear side by side with my native Linux games. I no longer have to have wine installed and maintain a separate Windows (in wine) Steam installation.

This is awesome. If you haven't already written about this, you should, because I'd love to read about it.

I'd second that. Brilliant work.

I'd love to see a technical teardown.

Is there any major studio or publisher that DOES give a rat's ass about Linux gaming?

Valve does

Valve isn't really a publisher and they're only barely a studio these days.

Valve

When was the last time they actually released a game though? From Wikipedia I can see:

Nov 2018 - Artifact (Collectible card game on Windows/Linux/MacOS)

Apr 2016 - The Lab (Windows only)

Dec 2014 - Left 4 Dead: Survivors (Arcade game?)

Oct 2014 - Counter-Strike Nexon: Zombies (Windows only)

2013 - Counter-Strike Online 2 (Windows only)

Heck even their new tentpole title Half-Life: Alyx is Windows only. Those aren't really big Linux credentials to boast about.

They've had an autochess game in early access for a few months. It officially comes out next month.

They launched Artifact in 2018, Underlords in 2019 all with first class, first day support for Linux.

Half-Life Alyx is coming in 2020.

The meme that Valve doesn't make games isn't real.

The meme might not be real but they're also not doing themselves many favors. People want a certain couple games, value does whatever they can to avoid it.

Even to hold people over they could have resurrected HL:DM and made it F2P.

HL:A is still Windows-only last I checked; haven't seen anything official indicating that Linux support is to be expected.

Probably because steamVR on linux is still pretty buggy and missing core features.

Artifact and Underlords are both mobile-style 'board games'.

So sure, Alyx is coming. But before that is a six and a half year gap in major games.

And if you discount CS:GO and Dota 2 as remakes, then you're looking at Portal 2 all the way back in 2011.

I'd think Proton is something to boast about.

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton

Proton is kinda the admission that even on Linux, Windows is still the better platform though.

I’m 100% not complaining because Proton has enabled me to play a libraries worth of games that were previously unavailable but it’s not exactly a victory Linux. The future might look like devs testing a little bit in Proton as “Linux support.”

I would disagree; "Better Platform" != "Supported Platform".

While it is an admission Linux gaming was hardly going to take off on its own from a cold start, it allows people to use the platform that makes more sense for them. With the increased capability of Linux+Proton as a platform, its horizons are pushed and it makes more sense for more people.

The only possible downside here is the potential for a developer to neglect Linux support now that people "can just run it in proton", netting Linux users a couple losses of what-would-have-been native ports. However, I believe the increase to the viability of Linux gaming overall makes up for it.

Especially, considering that more linux gamers increase ROI for a native linux version.

Not by much, considering the results of Steam's hardware survey.

Maybe, but a fairer statement would be "even on Linux, Windows, without the Microsoft, is a better gaming platform."

Not exactly, the the correct obvious admission is that Linux is a better Windows, as an extra translation layer for Win32 API to Linux/POSIX still has better performance (most games I play on Proton) than native Windows.

They have been providing a lot of tooling to help other people release games on Linux. Or attempt compatibility

You're missing counter strike: global offensive and dota2, which do work on linux natively. They're definitely in the top 3 in terms of general popularity for their genres.

All source games work on linux, but the new half life game might be the first exception. Proton works pretty well for other games, but there are hard blockers on some (for ex: the anticheat in pubg)

Paradox has been pretty consistent about Linux support, and in turn I've been pretty consistent about lighting my money on fire by buying their games and the DLCs thereof.

It's been pretty consistently broken support. I've run into lot's of things like CK2 only working on xorg, HOI4 only working on x11 (or the other way around), Imperator not working unless you install some c++ runtime lib, EU4 not working at all at the moment for some reason, all on a pretty standard ubuntu 18.04.

Some of those might not be the fault of paradox, but Imperator shows that they didn't even test running it on a stock install.

I've had better luck with proton games, they don't always work but once they do I have far less regressions.

That's surprising. I'm on Slackware and literally every one of Paradox's strategy games I've tried (Stellaris, HOI4, CK2, EUIV, Imperator, in that order) works flawlessly out-of-the-box.

Granted, I'm on Slackware64-current, so it's possible I've got newer driver/lib versions than Ubuntu 18.04. I'm also using FOSS drivers exclusively (primarily AMD, though I've played Stellaris on Intel GPUs with decent results, too), so if you're using Nvidia graphics, that might be a factor, too.

My experience is that Stellaris works REALLY great on Linux! Since I bought it two years ago, the experience has been flawless (on Ubuntu 18.04)

> CK2 only working on xorg, HOI4 only working on x11 (or the other way around)

Not sure what you meant, but X.Org is an implementaion of X11 so this doesn't make any sense.

I meant xorg and wayland but I just tried everything.

Currently on wayland stellaris and EU4 won't start for me, I didn't even know stellaris was broken until now, that was one of the better working ones.

On xorg they will all start but games are offset and sit below the top bar in gnome, The mouse isn't offset so it's completely unplayable. One of them used to work fine in xorg though, not sure which.

The problem is the DLC money grab.

It's also been a while but I wasn't able to play CKII or EUIV against friends on Windows due to some clock-time issue. Not sure if that's still a thing, but it led me to use CKII in WINE while doing large multiplayer games.

edit: otherwise, single-player native linux has been solid with CKII, HOI4, and EUIV, including mods. Vicky II did fine in WINE. I'm running new-ish Fedora.

id does, even if they don't provide "official" support. All of their games have worked flawlessly with proton or wine, from my experience.

> All of their games have worked flawlessly with proton or wine

Is that due to active development effort or is it just chance?

There's no way it's chance given that they directly contribute to proton and wine

Ah, thanks, I didn't know that detail!

AFAIK there is certain level of active development, though it was for a long time only one person, but also the general code is kept clean and portable, and it's mostly the occassional middleware that is an issue.

id Software contributed many excellent games to Linux, but they're no longer doing it.

>This was to be expected, when Epic Games, notorious for not giving a rat's ass about Linux support,

And why should Epic Games or any Game Studio for that matter give a "rat's ass" about Linux Support. Or macOS Support for that matter.

As much as I like macOS, I would have made the same decision if I was in their hat.

Or another question would are there enough Linux customer willing to pay a HIGHER price to sustain the support and development at "break even".

The answer seems to be no for Rocket League.

Because we've bought the game under the assumption that it would work on Linux and macOS, yet now it does not anymore. Can I have my money back?

Fair Point. Sure I think you should at least have some of your money back.

Isn't it asking a bit much of developers to give a shit about Linux when according to Steam's latest software survey it accounts for a whopping 0.67% of users, spread across God-knows-how-many different flavors.

No.

This is what the AAA publishers/studios think, because mostly they make games just for the money.

They don't really care for their customers and DRM usually doesn't work in Wine and hence 'the game doesn't work'.

The indie game dev crowd, with much less resources, certainly doesn't seem to have any problems (ideological or technical) with Linux releases.

That’s because most of the indie developers use Unity, and in there you can release a Linux binary in the click of a button (you don’t even need to have a Linux OS, cross-compiling is supported out of the box)

>This is what the AAA publishers/studios think, because mostly they make games just for the money.

Provide Data to suggest otherwise.

Making games for the money is what matters at the end of the day, if you don't want to live on a rented room eating spaghetti Napoli every single day.

Those indie devs hardly do any support and QA testing at scale.

Making games, selling games and making a living are three different things.

Many do gamedev just for the sake of the art.

It's just excuses if a $100 million project can't deliver what a couple of people without any real budget can.

But again: they want your money and it is not going to the actual developers and artists. At least, most of it isn't.

Indeed, and those artistics usually don't get a damm about platforms beyond getting exposure to their work in some form.

Walking the corridors of GDC(E), PAX seldom turns into discussions about OS and 3D APIs, rather business opportunies, publishing contracts, turning ideas into contracts.

Street musicians and art fair artists also do stuff big labels and architure societies don't care about.

Why would I even install Linux on my gaming box if there are no games?

Yes, I know, chicken and egg - but most games I play don't really work on Linux and are not on Steam anyway. I'm just saying it's a dumb idea to go off usage numbers of Linux steam users. FWIW, I have it installed on a laptop, so if they do some sort of flagging, my account has repeatedly logged in from Linux and started games - just not many and not often.

> I also wonder if this means that Rocket League will not run on Google Stadia and its competitors, as those platforms mostly run on Linux systems.

Firstly, what do you mean by competitors? I'm pretty sure none of xCloud, Playstation Now, or Nvidia Now use Linux systems.

Secondly, I wouldn't read that far into it. I doubt this has much to do with supporting the Linux API, and more about other burdens of support for Linux desktops, dealing with packaging that can deal with differences in distros, systems, and drivers especially in the context of all the configuration and poor vulkan support. Likely make Linux as a platform not worth supporting. Where Stadia will almost certainly be evaluated separately like a standard game console due to it's (I assume) hardware and api stability. Of course, Stadia may also not be decided worth the burden based on it's player-base, but I am confident it'll be an orthogonal decision.

For macOS you're probably right; a Vulkan rewrite is likely not worth the expenditure.

> Firstly, what do you mean by competitors? I'm pretty sure none of xCloud, Playstation Now, or Nvidia Now use Linux systems. I see no reason why Nvidia wouldn't use Linux where possible. Windows, especially cloud based Windows, has weird and sometimes expensive license charges that any Linux-compatible game does not need. They're likely still going to run Windows VMs out of necessity, though. I don't know the game streaming market well but with the groundwork Valve laid down for SteamOS support, I can see Stadia competitors choosing to use Linux as a cost-saving measurement. Still Google is quite some party to ignore.

Aside from dropping generic Linux support (which, of course, has an infinite amount of configuration options, especially when you encounter Arch and Gentoo users) they're also dropping SteamOS support. SteamOS (Debian with a layer of Valve software) deals with basically all issues you might have with libraries and versions for you.

This sounds like a choice based on economics (cost of testing Linux packaging vs income from Linux users) but if I were a Steam box user, I'd want the money I've invested into the game back. Based on the laws in my country, I'd say the product will be mostly broken (the main component, online play, will be intentionally disabled) which might be reason to terminate the purchase agreement (i.e. trade the product back for money as its manufacturer will not fix the shortcomings introduced). They'll likely fight tooth and nail to prevent this but one big lawsuit and the cost of maintaining limited Linux support would likely outweigh the cost of killing it after selling the game with Linux compatibility.

> dealing with packaging that can deal with differences in distros, systems, and drivers

"Differences in distros" is easy to fix: only target one distro (e.g. Ubuntu), and let users of other distros figure it out on their own. This has worked well for Steam's Linux ecosystem.

Dealing with "systems and drivers" is the exact same problem as exists on Windows.

> Dealing with "systems and drivers" is the exact same problem as exists on Windows.

I'll give you that regarding drivers, except the Windows market is significant enough to make the economics work out more favorably.

They also bought Easy Anti-Cheat. Same arguments apply.

Which makes it a non-starter for any multiplayer games using EAC and Proton/Wine, and it would be unlikely to see a native Linux game using EAC considering Epic lack of interest in Linux.

They're the new Nvidia of the Linux world.

Hopefully a more crossplatform anticheat tool is available..

Rust (the game) uses EAC and has a Linux native client. At least it did last time I played it on OpenSUSE. I haven't played it in a while. The lead developer has expressed regret for supporting Linux.

Oh yeah, 7 Days to Die also uses EAC on Linux.

Run things on Wine.

EAC doesn't work in wine.

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