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Comment by munk-a | Hacker News Reader

There's another weird factor. Ritalin is an upper and it's stigmatized to take an upper - either your performance, judged by coworkers, will be equivalent or below theirs and the stimulant is seen as the only thing keeping you in your job (which can get super depressing internally) - or, if you're doing well in your position, it can breed internal and external doubt as to whether your performance would just be normal and is being boosted by the drug.

It's kinda hilarious that, when going off Ritalin, things don't slow down (or become "less upped by the upper") they stop - this article touches on it but ADHD can feel the most torturous when it impedes even your leisure - especially when coupled with depression. Ever spent a day off staring at a wall dreading the possibility that you might waste a day until you realize the sun has gone down? Yup, so much fun.

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> Ever spent a day off staring at a wall dreading the possibility that you might waste a day until you realize the sun has gone down? Yup, so much fun.

This is literally every Saturday for me. I'm thinking about keeping my Ritalin by my bed. I don't understand why it's so difficult and it makes me really frustrated - I just can't get out of bed. I try to wake up and my mind goes "naw". I sit up to get out of bed, sit there for 40 minutes, and still can't get myself to get out of bed. Stare at my Pillow, some reddit posts, another 45 minutes are gone.

Now it's 2pm, I've wasted half the day. My depression tells me it's because I'm a lazy piece of shizzle.

Source: Diagnosed with ADD/Aspergers/Depression/Anxiety... Horaay :(

Being diagnosed with all of those things -- doesn't it seem like a pharmaceutical spiral brought on by a sick process? Ever since my sister was misdiagnosed with a handful of labels and put on a handful of drugs which subsequently ruined her life for a very long time I've been interested in looking at alternatives to the pharma status quo. I read Lost Connections by Johann Hari recently and it was remarkable. The chapter on how people with similar diagnoses radically improved by joining a gardening club (reconnecting with others) makes the book worth reading, but it goes into much much more. It's worth looking up.

None of these "alternatives" ever fixes bipolar,schizophrenia, borderline, adhd, etc.

When you have those stuff, you need to take meds AND join the gardening club.

You can't go manic at the gardening club.

Right. Those are very extreme diagnoses. Medication is often required. What this book speaks to is the problem with overprescription as applied to the average person, and offers many solutions.

Overprescription? It is so damned hard to get stimulant medications (patients don't even dare ask for fear of being labeled "drug seeking") that even people who need them badly have a hard time getting them.

So, no, it does not seem like a "a pharmaceutical spiral brought on by a sick process", whatever the blazes that means.

IMHO what you are saying and accurate diagnoses which result in positive-to-lifechanging treatment are not mutually exclusive. There's always more than one way for a thing to go wrong ;). And I'll check that book out. There's an interesting book on addiction, based on studies on rats, arguing that addiction is usually a coping mechanism for an unhealthy environment. Again, I don't think these different things are mutually exclusive.

Fuck I do this every day. Been diagnosed with ASD and I probably have at least one sleep disorder too. The guilt is indeed the worst part about it.

That and being late to work. I don't think anyone would believe me if I said that I'm more upset that I'm 10 minutes late then my boss is.

I got up 10 minutes early! I thought I was running on time! Suddenly I'm supposed to be there in 5 minutes! WHY?!!? It's like time isn't freaking linear!!!!

Yes! It's a triple whammy: you get to stress out because you're running late, be late anyway and feel guilty about it.

Hey, this is exactly why I keep it by my bed with a bottle of Soylent. The first thing I do when I wake up every day is take it and chug the Soylent to make sure I've got enough nutrition for it to work well. It helps a lot, I would earnestly encourage you to try it

I struggle with a few things, and probably some things from your list, but no diagnoses yet.

One thing that always goes through my head is just feeling like society is made for a model of human that just isn't me. There's a society out there that would suit me great, but I missed the boat on that. It was probably in the distant past before things got big, noisy, and complicated.

The FDA recently approved a drug for this scenario: https://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/home/topics/adhd/jornay-pm...

It’s an extended release methylphenidate that you take at night time, and 12ish hours later it actually takes effect.

What I don't understand is - why is it a problem that somebody performs better on medication? Life isn't sports or a game. It's not a competition. Shouldn't people be happy that someone else can keep their life together? That's less of a burden on society.

>Ever spent a day off staring at a wall dreading the possibility that you might waste a day until you realize the sun has gone down?

That sounds silly and boring. I was daydreaming instead of looking at the wall.

> It's not a competition

I surmise that the people who have a problem with the idea of someone taking medication feel otherwise.

> It's not a competition.

Are you kidding? Life in a capitalistic economy is _absolutely_ a competition.

Life itself is competition...

In a capitalist economy, others doing well generally benefits you. It's not zero-sum.

Sometimes you benefit from others doing well. Sometimes you are hurt by it. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Globalization, for example, is zero-sum for many people. Since we're now buying <wheat/metal/electronics> from <x country>, people who did that here lost their jobs. It's absolutely a competition. In capitalism you have to fight for your right to feed yourself, and if you are in the bottom x% of society, you quite literally have to live on the streets.

>Globalization, for example, is zero-sum for many people. Since we're now buying <wheat/metal/electronics> from <x country>, people who did that here lost their jobs.

Considering that those are some of the hardest and most dangerous jobs, it probably is better for you that it's done somewhere else for cheaper. This means that everything that depends on those jobs, such as the price of food, will also be cheaper for you. You can learn another job and do that. I realize that many people don't really want to do that, but it is an improvement for society.

>In capitalism you have to fight for your right to feed yourself, and if you are in the bottom x% of society, you quite literally have to live on the streets.

This is true by definition, because if you are homeless then you're by definition poorer than somebody that is not homeless. Essentially, it's not an argument, but I do understand that there are poor people under capitalism, but they are much better off than poor people 100 years ago, and they're much better off than middle class people 150-200 years ago. Society, especially the US, is so rich that almost anyone has a supercomputer in their pocket. All western countries offer lots of support for the homeless and poor.

not sure i agree on that, a good capitalist will try to own everything he can... how does that help anyone but himself?

Because the way they would have to do it is by offering people something even better in return. In a voluntary trade both sides end up better off, because both sides get something they want more than what they give away.

> Shouldn't people be happy that someone else can keep their life together?

There are entire large groups of people in this world who feel the need to drag other people down with them. Some of them are extremely good at it. Pray you never attract their attention. It's a nightmare.

This seems like wishful thinking. We all have a place in the hierarchy of our societies and your performance certainly impacts your position. Don't believe me? Decide to stop working. Eventually you loose your job, can't pay rent, and become homeless. You will find yourself falling down the hierarchy pretty fast.

Not trying to make any kind of judgment about this being good or bad. Just trying to point out reality. This is the world we live in - performance matters.

I get the idea of the hierarchy, but why does performance matter? Performance matters because we want to promote those that generate value the most. This correlates with improving the world for everyone. If your coworker invents cold fusion, then yes, she's going to be promoted over you, but the long-term effect is that you're also going to be better off because of that invention. Most improvements to the world are just smaller, but they're still there.

I keep it very closely that I am on any sort of medication because of the stigma. At this point in my life I refuse to allow someone else to have an opinion of what my doctor and I decide I need to be healthy.

I take a suite of medications for symptoms like this and never felt the need to advertise or hide it, and never experienced stigma although I have the mindset that leads me to not even notice negative cues (a mixed blessing).

More people need to do this. So many people are way too open about their private life and then end up frustrated when they get negative reactions about their disorder.

> the stimulant is seen as the only thing keeping you in your job (which can get super depressing internally)

Literally experiencing this right now while getting a degree in software engineering. Got diagnosed during my first year with AD(H)D and I'm currently in my fourth, final year. Looking back at things I have no clue how I even managed to pass the harder subjects/courses. All I remember is I took my meds and studied about 12 hours a day 3 weeks straight during the hardest parts.

Before I had never studied more than 2 hours a day and I would start only about 5 - 8 days before a test.

I often wonder if I could work at a software company without my medicine because of this and it actually worries me.

Replace "upper" with "caffeine" and the absurdity becomes apparent.

"either your performance, judged by coworkers, will be equivalent or below theirs and the stimulant is seen as the only thing keeping you in your job (which can get super depressing internally) - or, if you're doing well in your position, it can breed internal and external doubt as to whether your performance would just be normal and is being boosted by the caffeine."

the difference between them lies only in the degree of effectiveness. I dream that within my lifetime uppers will be as de stigmatized as weed.

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