Comment by papito | Hacker News Reader

Comment by papito | Hacker News Reader

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I don't know. I've always scoffed at the Socialist paradise of Western Europe, but I've changed my mind after traveling to Denmark a few months ago. The government employs a lot of people, and they seem to make sure that they themselves work for the public good. The public. You know, people who all live in the country. Everything is clean and the trains are on time.

Let's not bundle everyone under "Democracy". Our system is becoming badly broken for many reasons.

* Citizens United (didn't even seem like a good idea at the time)

* Gerrymandering

* The Electoral College (seemed like a good idea at the time)

* Self-interest vs. principals and very basic patriotism

The latter one really bugs me. We would benefit a lot as a nation if everyone had to go through mandatory 6-week bootcamp. Not even service. Just hold a rifle next to your fellow citizen for a bit, and share some food in the chow hall. See how it is out there. Some team building at a national level.

Because, guess what. The Russians have a team. The Chinese have a team. We don't have one. We have a bunch of profiteers in Congress waiting for even bigger lobby and board windfalls after they are done.

This will only get much worse.

Why should we have to force socialize people in a context of killing others? We force socialize people in plenty of other contexts like 12 years of schooling, most of which is mandatory. That hasn't gotten people to play in a team. Why would six weeks be any different? The only thing that will come out of mandatory boot camp is resentment and hate towards the government, institutions, and people that demand it.

My parents and other relatives of their generation grew up in the type of culture you describe. They risked their lives and risked torture to run away from it. The six months of boot camp certainly didn't make the society more cohesive or the make the people trust each other. No one wanted to be there and people were still afraid of themselves, the police, and the government. If it wasn't on a different continent, in a different era, I'd think I'm talking about the US. Needless to say, forcing people to socialize against their will does not lead to social cohesion or patriotism. It leads to resentment. Especially when you force it on people who think that patriotism really is for scoundrels.

I’d argue that 12 years of schooling does get people to play as a team, it’s just that the team is smaller and more local. If I grow up in a smallish town in South Dakota I will go to school with and know people who mostly look like me. I won’t meet someone from a big coastal city and get to learn their worldview and how it was shaped. I won’t (probably) experience what it feels like to be in a minority role (as in race, political belief, etc). I will, however, grow up with people and maintain longer relationships with them. I will vote and act in the interest of my community’s shared beliefs.

I also think there are other intangible benefits to conscripted service aside from exposing people to a wide diversity of their country. We were able to end the Vietnam war because we had a draft. We’ve been at war with terror for 19 years with no end in sight. Too few families are affected now and the nation doesn’t have the will to stop this forever war.

I do generally agree that socializing in the context of killing people is probably not ideal. That said, a very small part of the military actually kills people. The vast majority of the military is either in a support role, or do not find themselves in a situation where they actually need to kill someone. So, I want to discount your first paragraph a bit. That said, I support the idea of a 2 year mandatory service which unlocks benefits like tuition (university, trade, etc). I don’t think that service needs to only be military - I would happily revive the Civilian Conservation Corps, use the Peace Corps, etc to fulfill that service.

I think if we had a draft we wouldn't be in all these wars but we also wouldn't have much of an army. Short of an actual attack against the US like pearl harbor I cannot see people actually showing up. When you have millions of draft dodgers out in the open, what can you do? It's impossible to even arrest them all. Wouldn't even be worth trying. I think our military leaders know this. That's why we have no draft and likely why we'll never have one again.

Why for for a country that doesn't even care enough about you to provide you healthcare? Fuck that.

If you raise a generation that is taught public service, and most importantly, sacrifice, perhaps we'd have medical care.

And the bar for sacrifice nowadays is seriously low. Six weeks of your time for your country, where you do not risk your life, is somehow a big ask.

Look at these divas in the Senate right now, walking out of impeachment proceedings where they are the jurors. You see, it's too much of a sacrifice. They are not vibing with the whole thing, dude.

I'd say that things that are worth sacrificing for dwindled and disappeared first, then the will to sacrifice went. Can't blame people for not wanting to sacrifice when all the good things worth sacrificing for are gone. Maybe if we start focusing on fixing problems at home rather than forcing kids that don't know better to prepare for a war they'll never fight, we might be able to create a society that has things that are worth fighting for. This all comes from the top down. It's the American oligarchs, after all, who have taken almost everything from most Americans, including health, education, and hope for the future. Can't blame regular people for not caring anymore in a society that doesn't care about them. No amount of forced socialization is going to fix that.

I didn't say conscription. Basic 6 weeks training with zero obligation to serve. I would imagine it would actually solve the recruitment struggles as many people will love it and join right away.

They meant "why _military_ conscription, because that's a _military_ context".

I can't see the appeal of being forced to do anything for six weeks. Not to mention that from the descriptions of boot camp I've read, it's a dehumanizing, depersonalizing experience. Even if I did enjoy it, I would resent essentially being made a slave against my will and being forced into it. I think that's a very common human response to being forced to do something.

You are "forced" to get a job after school. Few of us like it, but we have to do it. Also, an experience like this could potentially develop some humility in privileged human bio-waste. Jared Kushner comes to mind.

> Just hold a rifle next to your fellow citizen for a bit

But, importantly, next to a random smattering of citizens from diverse locations, not next to a bunch of dudes from your neighborhood.

Xenophobia usually doesn't survive exposure to the xenos.

> The Chinese have a team. We don't have one.

We're a confederation of states. That legacy has really, really had a lasting impact. But IMO, after the outcome of the civil war, we should have formalized that we were one nation first and foremost, and that our states were nothing but administrative subdivisions. But that opinion is on much shakier footing than some of my other opinions, so don't ask me to defend it. :-)

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