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> People know what they’re getting into when they start these jobs.

Fresh graduates absolutely do not know what they are getting into when they start their first job.

No one actually knows what their first job will be like. But trying to hide that you expect 60-100 hours a week is stupidly counterproductive. Banking, law, consulting are pretty straight up about the hours. People would quit halfway through their first month, their first week of you tried to pull 100 hours on those who didn’t know they’d be working those hours.

A fresh college graduate at age 22 does not understand what 60-100 hours mean. The closest frame of reference they have is pulling an all nighter before an exam or to get a term project done. They can't contemplate their romantic relationship falling apart, the lack of feedback resulting in continuous self doubt keeping them up at night when they're supposed to be resting or how shallow friendships between colleagues are compared to friendships between students (especially when their colleagues have families).

They understand what it means to soldier on despite being tired. They don't understand how much they've taken for granted all that support and feedback that was able to let them cope with the stress, and that now they're on their own.

From my friends who recently graduated and took these jobs in nyc, this wasnt so suprising. They expected to work 10-12 hour days. The familial stuff sucks if you were planning on shacking up at 23, but most people just work their day then drink aggresively in midtown before ubering back to whatever 2k/mo studio tenement they managed to find in brooklyn. Take a boozy trip to the hamptons a couple times in the summer, take your LA trip, go to europe. Suddenly working 12 hour days doesnt seem so bad when you have a rolex on your wrist and a high concentration of adderal in your veins.

I expect in a couple years it will get old, but people are waiting to settle down well into their 30s these days to extend these years of pure adult independence for as long as they can.

That’s the thing about burnout; it feels great because you’re so productive and respected ... until one day your energy is gone. It might take years, it depends on how much support you get from people around at managing your stress, and of course it depends on your own ability to manage it too. I’m skeptical of how effective toys like a Rolex and booze is long term at easing the stress.

My ex-wife felt like she was on top of the world until she was burnt out and it developed into full fledged depression at age 27. I’m not saying everyone will end up like her, everyone won’t develop lung cancer from smoking either.

> Fresh graduates absolutely do not know what they are getting into when they start their first job.

Are you saying that doctors entering their first residency have no idea it's going to be a long 2-4 years? When a friend of mine gradated law school and landed her choice job, her comment was 'the next 2 years are going to suck, but then I'll be set'. Years later she was right.

We are not talking about starting any random job, but those jobs that everyone knows have an initial hazing type of culture. The large majority of jobs are not like this, but big law and finance are and those graduates going into those industries are fully aware.

Knowing in theory and living it for years on end are two very different things

> Companies that expect people to work this hard are almost exclusively very well paying entry level jobs for fresh graduates with an up or out structure like I-Banking, management consisting or law.

I take it you've never worked in a call center? When I did, anything under a `10` (out of 10) on the random surveys they sent out was considered a failure.

> they’re just jobs that are hard, that suck and that as a result have a high turnover and pay relatively well for low standards in hiring.

I have worked in a call centre.

I did the call center thing for a major bank during university. It was brutal work. But I learned a lot about shameless selling which is pretty useful.

> Companies that expect people to work this hard are almost exclusively very well paying entry level jobs for fresh graduates with an up or out structure like I-Banking, management consisting or law.

I'm not sure, I see a lot of companies moving to this model and they are not well paying. They copy startup environments but only in appearance (like a ping pong table for decoration that you are not allowed to play), because of that they justify that you must be passionate and work long hours for a low pay.

> companies that expect people to work this hard are almost exclusively very well paying entry level jobs

wasn't my experience at all, I did get "well paid jobs" in startups, but in the end, combining 3 jobs in one and doing 80 hours a week isn't worth it even if your salary looks pretty high.

How and why someone will work 80 hours a week? Don't they have families, friends, sport, or a hobby? Why is it necessary?

Because of OKRs. Management is setting it so that no-one can reach the objectives. Then there is some speech that OKRs are not really meant to be completed fully but they will still hold it against you if it's not 100%

In startups that's usually how they trick you: they hire you even if you don't have much experience, they give you a decent salary, then they make you feel like you have to work more in order to "prove" their choice was the right one.

I've also seen this "culture" of "we're one big family" in startups, which just feels weird and forced.

One startup I interviewed at, as an experienced developer, told me (paraphrasing here) "you'll be paid a salary lower than what you probably expect, and your first few months you'll need to work overtime to get used to our trendy tech stack, we don't offer health insurance but we do offer...not quite shares, but, sort of ownership interests. You could become a millionaire!"

Yeah no thanks.

No, because these kinds of places suck the blood out of people in their early 20s. Usually after they have moved to a new area and left behind all their social connections.

When you're 25 and have no ties and no responsibilities, working 12-15 hours a day isn't the impossibility that it is when you are 35 and have a wife, kids, your own house, and social obligations.

> Companies that expect people to work this hard are almost exclusively very well paying entry level jobs for fresh graduates with an up or out structure

I'm friends with accountants for the big 4 firms - they are in no way, shape, or form, high paying initial positions.

If you would only take a look at europe ... oh the horrors you will see.

Be clearer. I worked a ton of crap jobs in Ireland and always got out at the end of my shift unless someone didn’t show up and I agreed to work longer because I wanted more money. I have a number of relatives in medicine and professional services and long, hard hours describes their jobs well but it’s not chew them up and spit them out; If you want the big bucks you work the long hours.

Its hard to be clear, without betraying too much. i only have me and my experience and how i see others, and what ive been told.

Maybe the downvotes are meritted, though i didnt mean the hard work, i did actually mean that myself and many i know feel its a grind, and not in a good way.

You somehow make it sound as if i have something against hard work, but its quiet the opposite. It may very well be that my job is a single case of good ol toxic work environment.