Hacker News Reader

Comment by blhack | Hacker News Reader

If you're reading this, you probably need make a majority of your income using your hands, and your ability to type things with them.

Please get yourself a proper keyboard. They keyboard on your laptop, or even a good external one, is likely destroying your wrists. You're injuring yourself.

I highly recommend the microsoft sculpt keyboard. It's cheap (for something that will help you protect your livlihood) and will make a substantial difference in the longevity of your wrists.

Keyboards should be split. If you're not using a sculpt at the least, please change that. You'll thank yourself when you're older.

(Currently typing this on a keyboard.io -- it's a lot more expensive than the sculpt, and a lot of that cost goes to the cool factor of it, imo. The sculpt is a great keyboard.)

View on HN

Musculoskeletal disorders are complicated and not completely understood. I’m not sure the evidence base for alternative layouts and geometries is compelling enough to suggest that using a conventional laptop keyboard amounts to “destroying your wrists”.

I think the main areas of possible injuries are related to the angle and width of your keyboard:

- Your hands and wrists pronate to type on a flat keyboard. Holding _any_ position for a prolonged period increases chance for injury. Other things such as pens and mugs don't require us to turn our wrists that much. Some say the ideal wrist position is more like a handshake.

- The arm angle in on the standard keyboard as the home keys (for the index on 'f' and 'j') is positioned too close. This can cause either excessive wrist rotation or hunching of shoulder when typing.

I am sure not everybody has the same risks to injury, every hand and body is unique, either muscle composition/strength/flexibility, bone ratios/geometry, and others. But it doesn't hurt to try these alternative keyboard/layouts to find out whether it's more comfortable _for you_. Again, most of us makes money by typing into keyboards, it would be insane to see a truck driver seating on a bench seat just because it's 'standard' or cheaper.

Everyone should use whatever keyboard makes them happy, and that includes choosing one that is most comfortable for them; the study of physical ergonomics can sometimes help with that.

If we’re making general claims that a specific device will prevent a medical condition then we need evidence from clinical studies.

I agree with you on that. The statements are often times overboard. The testimonials are too. People need to watch out for these false claims and also be aware of their own needs and signals from their body.

Keyboard.io keyboards are awesome, I'd also highly recommend checking out the Ergodox project [1] - it's an open source keyboard that's very similar. They offer all the materials you need to DIY, and you can also buy a pre-built one for a similar price to the keyboard.io ones (still very expensive however).

[1]: https://www.ergodox.io

I saw a thread here about a month ago about these split keyboards and got a Centromere v2 (https://southpawdesign.net/products/centromere-plus-v2?varia...) and am typing this comment on it right now.

I have various observations, which I'm going to write up in a post soon, but here's a summary:

* It's amazing, I never want to use a non-QMK keyboard again. Just the fact that I can use layers and never have to take my hands away from the home row for anything is great.

* Having my Caps Lock be a combination of Ctrl and Esc is great, but I've done this for years with my normal keyboard as well using xcape.

* Having my Shift keys be parentheses and pressing both of them to activate Caps Lock is very convenient.

* I don't have any problem switching to my laptop's keyboard at any time. I noticed I type "wrong" on normal keyboards, probably because I hold my wrists straight so I can only use 2-3 fingers on each hand to type. This means that I don't have much problem with wrist position, but the split keyboard feels a bit better.

* Using a linear keyboard might have been a bit unnecessary, since I basically had to learn to touch-type properly again, starting at around 5 WPM (from 110 WPM normally).

* I still haven't learned all the keyboard shortcuts, though I'm getting better.

I don't remember more at this time, but I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone has.

I’ve used both the keyboard.io and Kinesis Advantage II, and the latter is miles ahead. The curved fingertip bowl, the more logical placement of modifier keys, the F keys and media keys, the softwareless macros and remapping; if you have any interest in a keyboard.io I strongly recommend a Kinesis Advantage II, instead.

Like another commenter said: ortholinear (not staggered) is a huge win. Perhaps even higher priority than split, but close at least. Don’t settle for staggered.

(I emphatically second the urging of ergonomic HIDs!)

What's so great about ortholinear keyboards? I'm typing on one right now, but I'm not sure I prefer it over the staggered one so much. It's easier to find where each key is, for sure, but I don't know if the adjustment hassle is worth it.

It's about the angle your left wrist makes to hit that top row. If you only extend your fingers linearly, keeping a staggered keyboard aligned with a "neutral" left wrist means basically a 90° angle. Anything less and you're twisting your wrist horizontally.

For me that's the most painful, and anecdotally I hear twisting your wrists is a notorious contributor to injury. But, as always, do your own randomized controlled trial if you want to be sure :)

I wouldn't recommend a staggered keyboard like the Microsoft Sculpt.

The Kinesis Advantage is a much better choice.

The reason I mentioned the sculpt is because it's cheap, and still infinitely better than the normal keyboard that ships on a laptop.

I think I've had four sculpts. They are great for the price. Would like a better keyboard with mechanical bc switches, but the next level is simply to expensive and there is too little choice for a international layouts. So please Microsoft. I would pay triple for a sculpt with mechanical keys.

I agree that it's important to find something better than the laptop keyboard. Even a £2 keyboard will outperform it; position is critical.

Split keyboards solve the problem of ulnar deviation. This doesn't affect me as much as other RSIs, so I don't optimise for this.

I am convinced that technique can compensate for more strain than equipment can. Keep wrists straight, use gross motor (shoulders, arms), work with gravity (in fingers and in arms). Relax.

Bad keyswitches can force you to put in extra effort. But good technique, positioning and furniture can get a lot out of a budget keyboard.

I'm using a good old logitech for work. It's big. It's clunky. It's got a ps/2 connector. It's not split. It's the only keyboard that never made my wrists hurt over prolonged use and I've been using it since 2006 along with microsoft mouse. I think overall keyboard size/key size and spacing matters more than splitting the keyboard in two.

I do however second the thought that keyboard (and ergonomics in general - external monitors set at correct height, good mouse, chair and table at good height, etc.) is not something you should ignore if you plan on keeping working with computers.

I highly recommend looking for a bowl-shaped keyboard as the second priority after split. Kinesis advantage is popular, and similarly priced to the keyboard.io. There are also maltrons, if you're willing to shell out a little extra dough. There was also a project to make a bowl-shaped split keyboard you could 3d-print at home. I can't remember the name.

I was also very excited about the moonrim, a project that portended to go a step further and change the hands' orientation, so they would face inward instead of down. Sadly, it ended up not taking off.

The Kinesis inspired 3d printed one is the Dactyl. Quite an effort to make it, but worth it to some.

The Dactyl is a bowl shaped split keyboard that you can 3D print the case for. From what I've read it's a very complicated build.

Are all of the 'exotic' keyboards designed for people who use the home row, or do they work for other styles, too? I type primarily with two fingers, employing the others for particular keys according to muscle memory, and do it faster than most touch typists (>100 WPM). Never knew whether that would translate to one of these other form factors.

It certainly doesn't help with transitioning to alternative layouts. I found my touch typing improved dramatically when I started using ortholinear and vertical stagger keyboards that force you to really use the "right" fingers

I kept having wrist pains and switched to the Surface Ergonomic Keyboard. I also got a trackball. My wrist pain disappeared quickly and is much less likely now. I have the same setup anywhere I work and at home.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com