Hacker News Reader

Comment by codingmess | Hacker News Reader

It is not a burden, it is a privilege. For dads to step up, as feminists demand, mothers would have to give up that privilege.

And if you believe the feminist narrative that it is dads forcing mothers to take care of the kids, consider that most women chose their jobs and the expected salary long before they meet the future father of their kids. Man choose careers that pay less, so the fathers end up having to earn the money. Them staying at home would simply mean less money for the family, often not enough money.

View on HN

This sounds sort of like "no, you see, I can't possibly help you with this, because it's such a privilege for you."

Being able to stay at home is a privilege. My brother, my dad and some of my friends took a few years off to stay at home when the mother worked, I don't see how being able to do that is not a privilege, all of them did it because they wanted to and liked it.

However all of them experienced a lot of sexism from being a stay at home dad. So an alternative explanation to the skew between men and women at work could be that men face so much sexism at home so they have no other option than to just slave away for 40 years. The people I know were lucky to have a progressive wife with a high paying career and enough mental fortitude to shrug off the constant verbal jabs at you, most men are not that lucky.

I don't think the person you are replying to is either agreeing or disagreeing it is a privilege. They are just pointing out the increadibly bad argument they are replying to.

A brand new account posting self-contradictory nonsense like For dads to step up, as feminists demand, mothers would have to give up that privilege. sounds like a troll to me.

I think the comment "no, you see, I can't possibly help you with this, because it's such a privilege for you." captured the contradiction pretty well.

(I "stepped up" and took time off when my child was born. It was both a privilege that I was able to do that, a burden that it needed to be done, and one of the hardest things I've done in my life. Trying to make it an identity labelled "feminist" move is insulting. I too experienced the sexism you referred to - I mean I bought dipers that say "only a mother knows" on them.)

No - what is going on is that feminists point to statistics of dads not staying home, then claim it is because dads "don't step up to help in the home". That's a feminist lie - several, actually. First lie: it is a burden to take care of your kids. Second lie: dads are lazy slobs oppressing the mothers to do all the awful work, while they chill in their comfy careers.

It's not even a question of "I can't help you with that because of your privilege", it is that the question is not even the question.

Of course there are dads who wouldn't like to stay at home, or who don't even consider it because of societal traditions. Likewise mothers who don't want to stay home (less often). Overall, it is a question of money (privilege), and a private matter between the parents.

This comment is helpful and relevant:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22080563

While women experience a "parent penalty", the one men would/do experience is much more severe because rather than being seen as necessary or expected, it is a character judgement: you chose to walk away and didn't have to so you have demonstrated you are wiling to be a traitor. (fair or not, this is the judgment).

If one is to advocate for men "stepping up", one must at least understand what they are asking.

"What, just step in front of the cavalry charge, they'll go around you don't worry you're just chicken hehe checkmate".

And while it might be unpopular to suggest this is so, I agree with the parent poster that the first thing that seems to get lost in these discussions is that taking care of children is not a burden. Work, yes, hard, yes, a burden? Only if you didn't want them in the first place. I say this as a father of 2 who sometimes sacrifices work to take care of my kids. It's a privilege the days I do so and I am currently undertaking a Herculean effort to modify the shape of my career and my income in order to do so more often because I love them and want them brought up right instead of leaving them in the hands of some daycare. Burden? WTF?

And it seems to be an absurd argument: "Caring for the children is a burden that holds back women therefore men should do it so women can work." Wait what? How does that fix anything?

This is why I largely stay out of these discussions. It seems to be impossible for them ultimately to be realized as nuanced. This problem is hard and a balanced, equitable solution is multifaceted. To state the solution as "well men should just...." in any context whatsoever does a disservice to the discussion.

As someone with kids I can verify it's a huge amount of work taking care of them! It's incredibly hard work, by far the hardest thing I've ever done. If you want to call that a burden then so be it.

For you to call that a feminist lie makes it sound more like you are trying to make this an ideological argument rather than anything based on experience. All your arguments are based on some strawman argument if feminism.

Why do you think mothers "less often" don't want to stay home?

It's hard work, but not a burden. People have kids because they like having them. Keeping with the Ferrari analogy, cleaning your Ferrari is also hard work, but nobody would pity you for the "burden" or having to clean your Ferrari.

Not sure if you are aware, but if you don't like them anymore, there are ways to get rid of them. You could send them to a boarding school (or at least to a school where they have to stay at school all day), hire a nanny, or give them up for adoption, for example. If your parents are still alive, you could ask them to take over, too.

As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism.

As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism.

You are presenting an caricature of feminism, and that seems to be all you are able to argue against.

In what way do you think I present a caricature of feminism? Where would "non-caricature" feminism differ from my presentation?

Please don't use HN for ideological battle, regardless of which ideology you're for or against. It already looks like you're using HN primarily for that, and we ban such accounts, as the site guidelines say.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please don't use HN for ideological battle. It's predictable and convinces no on. We're looking for curious conversation here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Reply on news.ycombinator.com