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Comment by arprocter | Hacker News Reader

The issue is that the listing is for a genuine product, but then you get sent a fake (even when 'fulfilled by Amazon')

Happened to me once with a watch strap, but the price wasn't high enough for me to go through the hassle of returning it

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> Happened to me once with a watch strap, but the price wasn't high enough for me to go through the hassle of returning it

In my experience, Amazon will just refund cheap items without even asking for you to return anything. I have no idea how many things I've returned to Amazon over the years, but it's a lot - easily many dozens of products. I'd guess about 20% of the time, because the item is cheap, they just let me keep it and give me back my money.

And then what am I supposed to do with a cheap, fake watch strap I don't want? Throw it in the trash? No thanks. I'd rather not get sent the item in the first place.

>Throw it in the trash? No thanks.

Why not? I'd understand the problem if you were talking about some large appliance, but you're talking about a watch strap.

It's still wasteful.

Spending time worrying about the wastefulness of tossing a fake watch strap worth a couple of cents would be far more wasteful.

The waste occurred when the item was manufactured, not when it was sent to you. Given that nobody wants it, creating it was a destruction of the value of the raw materials that went into it. Whether you throw it away or do anything else with it is irrelevant; the value is already destroyed.

Worrying about the fate of that watch-strap is a bit like fishing some food-soaked plastic wrap out of your garbage bin, and then feeling bad about throwing it back into the garbage bin. The plastic became non-recyclable earlier on, when it interacted with the food during packaging. It interacted with the food before you ever bought it. The standalone recovery-value of the plastic wrap was destroyed in the manufacturing facility, and would be destroyed whether or not you chose to buy the item. Just like those cheap watch straps nobody wants would have been manufactured whether or not there was demand for them. (Because there isn't demand for them, and they still clearly are manufactured.)

> whether or not you chose to buy the item

Only partially. Vendors will buy more to replace sold stock. If it never sells, the manufacturer will never get another order for production, and the total waste is capped at what's already been created.

I find that in AliExpress land, the long tail of stuff being sold (i.e. the stuff outside of the brand-names) was almost always created as a single batch by a process that can’t be replicated (e.g. because the people who made it only came together at that place and time to make that thing), and when that stock is depleted, the individual item is never sold again. If there turns out to be high demand, then another product will be produced that will be similar (sort of a knock-off, but sometimes it’s better rather than worse) but not identical.

One place you’ll run into this approach with higher-ticket items (i.e. not a $0.03 comb) is in the handheld emulation-console market. Some cool little device was created that everyone wants (e.g. the aluminum-alloy RetroGame 350)? Too bad, they can’t make more even if they wanted to.

Recently ordered a bathing suit for my kid on Amazon. Supposed to arrive in three days. Email that it shipped after a day. Four days later an email that basically says "We have no idea where it is. Click here if you want your credit card reimbursed." Overall weird experience.

Stuff gets lost during shipping all the time, why is the automatic refund process weird?

Four days is nearly instantaneous in logistics-system terms. I'd be surprised they managed to lose the thing, realize they lost the thing, and then give up on the thing turning up later on, all so quickly.

Four days is more than long enough to figure out that a tracked delivery has probably been lost. You refund and tell the delivery company to return to sender.

This wasn't even a direct refund, just an email making it easy for the customer claim one.

For domestic transit, that might be true.

For international shipping—often something will be in a black hole on various boats + transdock facilities + customs for two months or more, before anyone knows where the package is, or whether it was received at all.

And, at that point, you often deal with carrier hand-off, such that the package immediately stops getting tracking updates from carrier A and there's potentially >4d of delay before you start getting tracking updates from carrier B.

>For international shipping—often something will be in a black hole on various boats + transdock facilities + customs for two months or more, before anyone knows where the package is, or whether it was received at all.

Is that very often the case with Amazon? I've done 500+ orders and haven't seen that happen unless I go out of my way to order from outside the EU (Ok, crossing EU borders is technically international, but not the way you meant it.)

the "automatic" adjective is what the problem is. i had the exact same experience. i expect an "automatic" refund. i had to search my order, and notice the comment, as if the refund is optional. any other companies would have issued the refund without asking if i really want it, and hoping i will not check the order and notice the question

You would’ve eventually received an automatic refund (or the product!) even if you did nothing.

Amazon really isn’t trying to screw you here, they’re just being transparent about a likely delivery issue and offering you the opportunity to cancel the order.

"Just send it back" is not the solution here. And not just for - as one real example - safety carabiners (for mountain climbing).

Deceiving people is not okay. Ever. And especially not on the scale of Amazon. They're not tricking people to survive or feed their family, but as a multi billion dollar business modal.

Being happy to be able to send back is either ignorance or sticking your head the sand. (that's being blunt, but still meant as friendly debate)

You are out of your mind for buying a carabiner from amazon (or any huge online retailer). Don't risk your life like this, please. The only big retailer I would buy from is REI, and probably in person. Most likely I'd go to an actual local climbing shop.

Yes but at the same time we can hold Amazon (or any other seller) accountable when they misrepresent what they're selling.

I did not. And more importantly, that wasn't the point at all. (other than that: yes I fully agree!)

So stop buying from Amazon. Period. They have obviously decided that they'd rather sell you crap, telling you it's a genuine item, than the real thing. Why give them any more of your money?

We have fraud laws to starve fraudsters of new victims. We have fraud laws so we don't each individually have to vet every seller. The more due diligence we have to do, the less business we're going to get done. It's better for the economy as a whole as well as us buyers individually if we can hold Amazon accountable when they fuck us over.

Are you referencing any fraud laws in particular? They could be useful resources for folks on this thread who've received fake/counterfeit items.

As I understand it, although purchases are made through a single service (Amazon), products are sourced from a large number of sellers who list items on their marketplace. It could be useful to find out how the laws you mention are written and enforced in that kind of environment.

At the moment I'd suspect Amazon are keen to handle disputes/concerns directly which might lead to fewer regulatory complaints from customers and avoid scrutiny.

Yes, and the most direct way you can hold a vendor accountable is to stop giving them your business.

If there are other legal, political, or regulatory avenues you wish to pursue, that's not mutually exclusive to taking your personal dollars elsewhere in the meantime.

And I guarantee that that strap had a >4.5 star rating. The whole site is nothing but >4.5 star ratings now, hmmmm.

4.5 stars with +1000 reviews for a brand that has only existed for a year.

Another fraud pattern allowed by Amazon. They simply should allow sellers to modify major aspects of a product listing once it's been published.

And if you look at the reviews they reference a different product or are too generic to be taken seriously. Amazon has allowed this to happen on a big scale. I personally avoid Amazon now.

Stop buying from Amazon, simple solution.

I've gone this route.

Started shopping local again.

I miss the convenience but getting too many open-boxed items was enough to push me over the edge.

For me it stopped being convenient because I was getting too many fakes and too much garbage. Yes, those aluminum tent stakes are cheaper but they're also not designed with the same level of care as the ones you get locally. And it really matters if you're expecting them to stay in the ground and not saw through your guy lines.

You mean stop thousands of other people from buying cheap watchbands from Amazon, unless and until they get better quality control, as determined by some impartial third party, who then signals to thousands of people that it's ok to buy again? Or maybe stop thousands of other people from buying watchbands from Amazon forever? Because if one person stops buying, it's not a solution, and to get many people to stop buying is not simple.

"Shipped and sold by Amazon" means amazon sold it to you.

Fulfilled by amazon means someone rented amazons warehouse and used their logistics services and payment services (and multiple suppliers stocks may have mixed together.)

If shipped and sold by amazon is an option around the same price, you can choose not to involve the reselling middle man.

>(and multiple suppliers stocks may have mixed together.)

this applies to sold by amazon items as well.

> If shipped and sold by amazon is an option around the same price, you can choose not to involve the reselling middle man.

They commingle all inventory, whether or not it is shipped and sold by Amazon.

Im mostly looking at it from the perspective of "if I have to return this because its not right, its a ton less hassle if Amazon is the party I have to deal with the return through."

TFA claims Amazon themselves are selling counterfeits though.

>"Multiple times we discovered that Amazon itself had sourced counterfeit product and was selling it alongside our own product," he noted.

>He asserted that Amazon representatives would tell him over the phone: "If we don't get it, then we're going to source product from the gray market."

>The issue is that the listing is for a genuine product, but then you get sent a fake (even when 'fulfilled by Amazon')

That would be the issue the first time, but I agree with the parent down voted into the gray...You are knowingly doing business with a company that knowingly and willfully fulfills your orders with fakes.

At a certain point you have to stop saying Amazon's counterfeit practices are the problem, but the problem is customers. They will never stop advertising legit products and shipping counterfeits, because people will keep buying and even just accept it.

Name 3 things in your entire life that were fake. Theres likely a bunch of 200 packages a year people in this thread. What could you be buying that lacks sufficient reviews and is of such opaqueness and simultaneously over a nominal amount?

Not an Amazon apologist but it seems a bit ridiculous. How do they get paid? The customer first mantra is nice but do they not prefer a higher price too?

1. Apple Chargers, multiple

2. Anker Chargers, multiple

3. SanDisk memory cards, multiple

4. Otterbox phone case

It doesn't matter what price you pay. Even if you pay recommended retail, if Amazon co-mingles, you run the risk of counterfeits.

I buy all my electronics elsewhere now. And discourage anything that goes in or on your body from being bought from Amazon.

Asked for 3 got 12. Fair enough.

Actually I've had something similar. Samsung charges better with Samsung usb cables (per ATT in store and tmobile in stores ppl). But the Samsung USB cables are realllllly poorly labeled. Like suspiciously so.

1. USB Chargers 2. Apple TV 4K Siri remote 3. Sensodyne Toothpaste 4. Pretty much any name brand clothing 5. Maui Jim Sunglasses ... I’m an idiot. Plenty more that I ignore.

Wow, things are pretty bad when people are slinging bootleg toothpaste

That you put in your mouth and partially ingest.

Reminds me of the Chinese milk scandal where people were literally poisoning babies by selling fake milk for a profit of a few cents apiece. This is why you can't just say it's just everyone's responsibility to be careful what they buy, no one has time to run chemical analysis on every single item they take home from the grocery store.

That or they give you a dozen tubes that will expire next month, or have already expired. Luckily I only bought 3 expired tubes of toothpaste.

You can make a tube of toothpaste for a few cents. With counterfeit branding you can sell it for a hundred times as much. It's drug dealer profitable at much lower risk.

I've heard of multiple reports of bootleg soap/body wash sold by Amazon, I think it's pretty common.

Lenovo chargers, multiple

Apple chargers, multiple

Lenovo/Thinkpad batteries, 2

Flash drive - Sandisk

SD card - Sandisk

MicroSD card - Sandisk

MicroSD card - Kingston

Flash drive - Kingston

I've also received expired food and drink numerous times.

Oh wow.

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