Ask HN: Hackers falling in love | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Hackers falling in love

106 pointsrmundo68 comments

I quit my job around six months ago to start my own thing. Thought through a lot of possible distractions, technical/financial blocks, how much runway I had, etc. What wasn't anticipated was meeting someone and falling head over heels. Well, it's a few months later, and I feel a bit like waking up from a dream, but the project seems to be on the right track again, slowly building momentum. But I wonder if I could have done things differently, taken on a different attitude, basically done more in the past few months instead of behaving like a smitten puppy with all the time in the world.

The amount of focus and effort required in building a startup is incredible, but molecular chemistry is a tough adversary that doesn't fight fair. I'm curious how others have dealt with similar situations. Really love to read some war stories. Anyone?

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I was at dinner with a young lady who is now my girlfriend a few months ago, and she asked me my plans for the next morning (Saturday). I told her that I was going to be programming (it was during the last week or two prior to AR's launch).

She said: Of course, after all you are a businessman. The job comes first.

I said: No. Not first. Not second, either, unless first is "all the things I love in life."

I had a really really awful no-good bad day today, buisnesswise. It was easily my worst ever on that score. But you know, in the greater scheme of things, if the code fails and the disk dies and my database goes to meet the great truncate in the sky, it will be very stressful for a few weeks, but I'll still have my family, my friends, my girlfriend, my faith, my health, etc.

We've got a lot of pressure and responsibility running companies, but at the end of thhe day, it is a job. You don't live to work, you work to live.

Though I agree that love and family come above all else, of course, I do quite dislike the whole 'it's just a job' attitude. Isn't the whole point of all this that we do what we love and are passionate about?

I, for one, adore programming and would do it even if I was working as a bank clerk.

Obviously there are awful days and truly crap aspects of running a business, and even when coding, as things you love aren't a pure, crystalline edifice of positivity but necessarily embody suffering within them. What counts is the net meaningfulness of what you are doing, I think. And I believe when you are doing something you love it pays infinitely more than it costs.

I say this with all respect, as you have achieved amazing things, and are clearly a very competent (far better than me) hacker.

I love my job and find a great deal of meaning in the work, but there is no level of Yay This Is The Best Job Ever that would make it more important than those other things. (It is my favorite job ever. This morning aside, I practically bounce with enthusiasm about it. I am probably spoiled for doing anything else. But if it were ripped away from me, I'd still be living a very blessed life.)

I appreciate the praise, but folks overestimate my skill at hacking. I'm good at it. There are a lot of people better at it than me, including on HN.

I definitely want to emphasise that I agree that love, family, etc. are the most important things. Only people who have never had such could disagree with that :-)

Just wanted to highlight that I think it's important that work be more than simply a means of obtaining money to fund pleasure in your spare time, that it can be more than that, which as your reply indicates, you clearly agree with.

The vast majority of people (talking about those lucky enough to live in the very privileged western world) have the attitude that work is a misery that you cannot avoid, and I think it's important to emphasise that there is another way :-)

You've created a successful business through hacking, your analyses demonstrate you are very sharp + competent, I think that alone qualifies you as a great hacker. And your humility only makes me think that more so :-)

> folks overestimate my skill at hacking

Actually, I was under the impression that you were mainly known for BCC, which doesn't look that technically sophisticated (of course, it does require good marketing/SEO/etc, and your candid posts and expertise are very welcome).

Care to brag a little?

Most of BCC (and AR, and my day job work, and my client work) is fairly pedestrian, programming-wise. I can usually eventually get code to function to accomplish arbitrary objectives most of the time. Yay.

My limited claim to fame with regards to programming is that I am good at designing and passable at implementing systems/code which improve marketing outcomes: A/B testing, various types of optimization, scalable content generation, conversion tracking and optimization, etc. It turns out that this is a) not nearly as common as being good at programming and b) anywhere from "spiffy" at BCC scales to "changed the way we did business" (quoth a rather happy client, who you've all heard of).

The Bingo Card Generator is not the part of BCC that is technically sophisticated.

Didn't you describe it as a "hello world project hooked up to a random number generator" at some point? ;-)

I do recall that Patrick has written a supposedly-neat A/B testing framework - is that what you're referring to?

[I'm not trolling, just honestly curious!]

The bingo card generator is, in a sense, "hello world" hooked up to a random number generator. The mechanisms built around that small piece of software to demonstrate and provide value are what's sophisticated about BCC.

"...and my database goes to meet the great truncate in the sky" -- I'm stealing that.

me too. kindly accept my flattery : )

I have some foreign language partners, and when I tell them I'm going to a programming conference they always ask if my co-workers are going, and each time I have to explain that I'm going for fun, not for work. (Of course, I program at work, but sometimes the conference isn't applicable to my job.)

To be fair, I'm pretty sure US-based friends would ask the same except that most of them are technically inclined, so it's not usually necessary.

> You don't live to work, you work to live.

Not exactly: you don't live to work, but you don't work to live. Working is living, it's just that living is not just working.

Keep things balanced, and everything will be going better and better.

Disagree. Plenty of us live to work, because working is living. If you're not creating and producing, you're merely existing.

A good relationship will help you through the stress of a startup.

A bad one will make it much, much worse.

Either way, it's out of your control. If you're in love, you're in love. Make the most of it.

This is not so much a possibility as an inevitability. Chances are you will fall in love and it will disrupt your life whether you're starting up or doing something else entirely. If you're fortunate, you're new significant other will be a disruptive, yet motivating force. Moving you towards new heights that you had not imagined. But, it's more likely to be a struggle to balance your life's goals with your desire for this new person. Ultimately, you're startup hopes might be replaced by new goals: a family and all that entails.

These things are not mutually exclusive. If you take an all or nothing view, you're being naive. You can have some percentage of a solid relationship and career (whether a startup or something else).

Life is messy. You'll have to decide if your relationship allows you enough time to meet your personal goals and if that even matters. Only you can make this determination.

As for me, I've been with my wife for over 10 years (most of it dating), and... honestly? I think this relationship has had an adverse effect on my goals. I, kind of, think I'd be much more rich and successful had I never met my wife. On the other hand, when she's gone for a weekend, I always think, "I'll get so much done when she's gone"... but, I often end up mired in the "blahs" until she returns. And, honestly...

I think I've slowed down a lot as I've gotten older. I think back on things I accomplished in 3 week coding marathons when I was in college and, while I think I'm a better programmer now... well, I don't repeat those accomplishments. I get more done in less time, but I'm not able to sustain a marathon for multiple weeks. You may be different, or that might be part of getting older.

Ultimately, I've been moderately successful (my business represents the bulk of our income), but not wildly successful. I've come to think less is more... and, I'm happy with that. I doubt I'd be happier single with a larger business and more money.

But that's me...

There's a significant risk of burnout/major depression for those who stay single to work like hell through their 20s/30s. Significant others are risk reduction: they may impede a major positive outcome, but they can also prevent a very negative outcome.

Can you explain more the risk? I'm in my 20s and considering to work like hell and not going in an opposite sex relationship. I have friends, though.

One day you'll realize that those opportunities with the opposite sex that you've been blowing off because you had "better" things to do... Well, those opportunities only exist in the past.

Regrets are almost always about things you didn't do. Almost never about the things you did do.

I'm trading money at my 30s with love in my 20s. So I don't think I'll miss much. I'm afraid I'll be obliged to take a job in my 30s since odds are I don't have many options to start a startup. However, now, I can take more risks for that, since I don't have any obligations.

> As for me, I've been with my wife for over 10 years (most of it dating), and... honestly? I think this relationship has had an adverse effect on my goals. I, kind of, think I'd be much more rich and successful had I never met my wife.

Define successful?

Probably "fame", "power" and "money". Notice how happiness is not there.

I think everyone has his own definition of the word. It'll depend on what happiness to him is. If he's happy with his family, so happiness is having a family.

Amazing writeup. Thanks.

As a woman who sees these young entrepreneurs in their twenties who routinely put work before relationships, I am sometimes dismayed. I've wondered more than once if their growth as men is being stunted. I suspect the stories of sacrificing love on the altar of your startup and the pain involved in doing so are just the stories you don't hear.

New love and startups have about the same failure rate. No?

Yes, but when you succeed your start-up takes you to the bank, while your wife takes you to the cleaners ;)

This describes my experience quite well.

I wouldn't consider that "succeeding".

If you really feel this way, maybe it's a good thing that such a small proportion succeed. There must be armies of startup wives out there who are paying off the debts of their husband's startup failures. ;)

Aw well. Startup or no startup, being in a bad relationship is a giant liability anyway.

Perhaps you are dismayed because, for most of the population, a man's priority in life is to fulfill a vision. A woman's is to find love.

(Usual disclaimers - men also want love and women also enjoy working on a vision.).

I've wondered more than once if their growth as men is being stunted.

No, it's not. But just forcing oneself, and redirecting your attention for something that you dream to turn big.

I am fairly young - 27, been married about 5 years, have two kids (both under 3) and am madly in love with my wife.

She doesn't work, and building my startup full-time is VERY stressful - especially since I am bootstrapping, more or less.

As al3x pointed out though, a good mate can really make it MUCH better. I am blessed to have a wife that is understanding and doesn't NEED to go shopping and is high maintenance. Of course, every girl likes to be pampered - but she is very laid back and supportive of what I am doing.

That makes the tough days when everybody else is suggesting that maybe I should 'get a real job' much easier to handle and brush off.

I actually think it is easier to do a startup with an understanding wife, because it adds balance and sanity to your life.

But if you get a bad match...yikes...run!

Falling in love is not one of life's distractions, its one of life's points. Time well spent.

True. I agree that it's one of life's points. However, oftentimes maintaining a relationship can be distracting.

If it's a relationship you want to be in, embrace the time away from work to be present and enjoy being with someone you love.

If you find your relationship distracts you from work you want to be doing, and find yourself wishing you were doing work and weren't with your significant other, end the relationship.

A muse helps so much.

I know I am supposed to be naturally deeply passionate about every single thing in my life all the time -- that is apparently now standard for educated people, nobody ever feels blasé about anything; feeling blasé is for poor people and stupid people -- but (gasp, horror of horrors) passion is sometimes hard to come by for me. Loving someone gives everything a special glow. Loving someone makes my accomplishments meaningful. Loving someone gives me a reason to rewrite something that was good enough the first time. Loving someone gives me a reason to stay late doing something that will make an impact but won't translate into pay or advancement.

A muse brings everything into sharp relief and makes everything feel more vital and dramatic. It doesn't have anything to do with sex -- a muse can have this effect even if you can't have her, and sleeping with girls you aren't so excited about has the opposite effect, flattening everything out so that accomplishment and slacking off feel exactly the same.

It may even work better in the short run when your muse is inaccessible. In that case you have freedom to manage your side of the "relationship" without worrying about the consequences for her. A muse who loves you back has staying power, though.

I think “blasé”, by definition, isn't for poor or stupid people, unless you're using it ironically.

Nah, in this age of plenty that's about right.

You seem to regard having fallen head over heels as a bad thing.

Be grateful as hell. It doesn't happen to everybody.

Sorry; I can't tell if you're just back down to earth and you're in a steady relationship now or if it's over. In case it's the former, here's my two cents. This comes from a place a little further down the road, and therefore it is a little OT, but I'll mention it because I wish I would have heard the same.

You might find that your professional success--perhaps your emotional investment in your business--gives rise to turmoil in your relationship. Many of us strive to get big, go public, get acquired, acquire others, merge, etc. These events are typically wins, but the downsides are loss of control, loss of interest, and perhaps even a bit of depression as a result.

I hope you're successful. If you feel a little off in the course of things, don't let it poison your relationship. Recognize it, act on it, but don't react.

I'm reminded of the best personal advice ever given by a Physiscist:

"Dear Mrs. Chown, Ignore your son's attempts to teach you physics. Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is. Best wishes, Richard Feynman."

As long as the feelings are mutual and are able to grow beyond the initial smitten stage then nothing wrong with falling head over heels in love.

I've done it, and come through the other side with the love of my life. ^_^

The time you've invested in building the relationship will come back as support in the form of a partner telling you to keep pushing even though everyone else thinks you're crazy. No matter how much discipline and confidence you have, it's always great to have the person you love tell you they believe in you.

You have your whole life for startups. Indulgence in love is mostly limited to your 20s. I would suggest enjoy the chemistry till it lasts - startups can wait. The chemistry will bring you more happiness then any amount of big company building would.

Destinations are always pointless, its always the journey. Think of this as a detour from your startup life. In the longer run, detours will give you valuable perspective and make your journeys more meaningful.

Happened to me too, girl wasn't worth the time though. Dev is now at full pace...my personal belief is that no love life is a better startup life. Others have pulled it off though!

My experience is a real relationship seems to constrict me. A girl I love and think about all the time, but never know her name... that will make me a deity in production and development.

I had to check to make sure I didn't sleepwalk and submit this because almost the exact same thing happens to me. I quitted my job 8 months ago to travel and work on my ideas. 2 months in, I fall in love with my current girlfriend. After a few months of long distance relationship as I traveled around the world, we now live together in the most romantic city in the world, Paris.

During the day when she goes to school, I work on my project. At times when I can't stand the loneliness, I get out and just hop on a random metro to read or observe people. At night, we cook, talk, and watch movies together. I'm having the best time of my life even though the future is a little scary to think about. I hope you enjoy yours as well, best of luck to your startup.

Personally falling in love motivates me to do stuff more than anything else. Even if it didn't, I would still want to fall in love more than work on a startup. Why work on a startup now, so that you can fall in love and be happy later?

Working hard and long hours is a part of my life–so if a partner doesn't mesh with that they don't mesh with me. I luckily tend to only be attracted to similarly driven people, so it usually works out for me. The few times I've strayed personality types there have been problems.

All and all, I do consider the force that makes me obsessed with a project to the point I can't get up for hours on end the same one as the one that makes me neglect the project a week later to experience a wonderful new and intense experience and I'm grateful for it. I'm lucky that I have the freedom to wander wherever my passion is at the moment.

I love startups and the thrill of success. But there is nothing that a successful startup can bring you that is anywhere near the feeling of having the love of your life tell you that she loves you back.

I think you have all the advice you need here. Life is messy, it's not always the dream you watched in movies growing up. There is a reason musicians and poets alike have written so much about it. People talk on HN about start-ups being life, as with anything in life that gives you great reward there is a great risk. Love is no different. For you to find happiness you need to enjoy the risk of both. How you do this and manage these different aspects of your life depends on how you tell your stories.

I can't speak from personal experience, but in this interview Max Levchin mentions how his girlfriend was key in pushing him forward and giving him the strength to not quit during the days before Paypal - http://gigaom.com/2010/11/08/in-his-own-words-the-story-of-m...

I think Shakespeare puts it best...

'poor and content is rich, and rich enough'

If we base our self esteem and judge our success by the work we do, then we'll always be found wanting. The ultimate goal of life is happiness in ourselves or others (which in turn often brings us happiness). While a successful start up may bring us satisfaction/money, it is ultimately only a cornerstone in our lives.

"...but the project seems to be on the right track again, slowly building momentum"

Enjoy it! Looks to me like it's helping.

Choose love over money.

Always.

Falling in love with a wealthy girl makes the choice even easier though, or at least one who makes a decent living. It's better when you can do your startup without having to worry about bread on the table tomorrow.

If you are, indeed, in mutual love, then you should be very thankful.

I personally can be more focused while I'm working when I am in a relationship, so I would see it as a benefit. When I'm not in a relationship, there often seems to be this extra "to-do" item that is never done :)

Some people, they fall in love, and that becomes the thing that guides their decisions in their life.

Other people don't - they love their work so much that they put it before anything else. Or, they just don't meet someone, and instead put their energy toward their work.

But it's still possible to use that support as fuel to motivate you. It's just a matter of prioritizing, and making sure you don't neglect either of these important elements in your life.

Support structure, focus and continued encouragement is all I get. In small, daily and consistent doses. I'm diving in full time in March, and can't see myself doing it without the other.

>molecular chemistry is a tough adversary

I hope you're sure the other party doesn't see this. Can't imagine that would go down too well.

That's all I am to you? Amino acid chains?

If obsession with love can be reduced to chemistry, then obsession with business must necessarily be understood similarly, and with a similar inward scepticism.

But yeah. However much you enjoy your work, it's not going to benefit it long term to let it give you tunnel vision. However fulfilling it is, you cannot live a one dimensional life and still be happy forever.

If the person I was dating didn't find that amusing and endearing then we'd be doomed anyway.

I'm dating a psychologist, who has a reductionist approach to such things. She says things like "You just gave me a massive surge of oxytocin." It's awesome.

That's all I am to you? Amino acid chains?

No darling, of course not! Fatty acids, if deposited in right places in the right amounts, may also produce a visual sensation that will trigger the emotional response in the occipital lobe!

There is just one life...

> But I wonder if I could have done things differently,

Well, sure. Should you have? I doubt it.

You'll be able to hack and do startups the rest of your life. Most likely you'll only have a few chances to fall in love. I recommend making the most of them. (This goes double if you want to get married and have a family.)

Its all about getting the right balance and progressing in all areas of your life, not just one. Think about your ideal situation and work towards that. It's often helpful to think about your priorities using a four quadrant model - Self, Work/Money, Family, Community.

I had only one real love so far and it actually helped me advance. It keeps me being motivated.

Wish i could find it, but there's an HN'er who bootstrapped a business and during the same timeframe met someone and got married, and wrote a nice blog post about it recently. He seemed to pull it off just fine.

Best HGH is http://www.hghforsale.org/genf20.php

In my experience, money is much easier to find than limerence. Also, limerence is generally relatively short-lived. For the sake of living life, I recommend to young people that they take a 'gap year' of sorts, and that they pursue limerence or 'love'.

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