Office comparison: 37signals vs Zappos | Hacker News Reader

Office comparison: 37signals vs Zappos

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158 pointswlll65 comments

I wouldn't want to work in Zappos's office. It just doesn't look appealing to me at all. On the other hand, the 37s offices feel cool. The Zappos offices are Office Space-like cubicles covered in random crap. The 37s offices send a very different message; if you're going to work in an office (hopefully, not all the time), I'd much rather be in that environment.

I think it comes down to this: the style of the 37s offices (like many other designed offices) is more like what I see when I think of the "future". And I'd much rather be living and working in the future than cubes covered in random crap.

I'd also imagine the people who work at 37s are generally introverted developer/designers while Zappos is packed full of extroverts.

I'd expect different environments for both.

Does the Zappos engineering dept look the same?

Yes - the entire office is covered in decorations, themes and general craziness.

Also notice the different gender makeup:

* only men are in the 37signals pics

* only women are in the Zappos pics

Also notice that Zappos is in Las Vegas. Big local culture difference.

It's all relative. The office tends to conform to your culture and employees.

The Zappos style is "do whatever it takes to make you and your customer happy". The chaotic, haphazard office style befits a company that once drove to a B&M store to buy a pair of shoes that they didn't have in stock and then delivered the shoes personally to the customer (all for free btw). Absolute bloody madness that earns them over a billion dollars in revenue in a niche of a niche of e-commerce that even the big boys tried (and failed) to compete.

37signals, with sparse digs and even more spartan design decisions, keeps their decision-making more minimalistic and cold (we will not implement a feature before its time). Meetings are death, build less, leaner and more flexible. All this results in an environment where they could pack up and move the entire office within the same day that they push out a beautifully useful new major feature in their software.

Someone commented about Pixar's offices[1], which seems more a testament to their employees' penchant for exacting design and aesthetic perfection, with no pixel out of place and no colors clashing. Their workspace keeps their employees making films that gross billions worldwide and which are universally praised as classics in film and storytelling. Pure, exacting entertainment.

[1] http://www.officesnapshots.com/2007/07/16/pixar-hq/

I've been to the Zappos office - don't mistake the random crap for anything other than an extremely motivated, tight run ship - those guys are killer business people - top to bottom.

That said, my personal taste leans more towards the 37 offices.

Agreed. It looks like you can't work at zappos without at least 15 pieces of flair. You want to have flair, don't you?

I looked at the pictures and immediately thought that Zappos looks like a place where people chat (customer service) and 37Signals looks like a place where people think (programming).

I agree. I do not like this idea that lots of zany shit = fun and comfort. Having worked in a number of different office cultures, the people with all the crazy junk all over their desks are almost always the sad ones -- people who go home alone after work and cry in their apartments, surrounded by cats with various illnesses. It's actually a red flag for me whenever I interview. It says, "I'm doing my best to cope."

37signals' office seems to say, "You're in, you're out." Fried has, on multiple occasions, suggested that offices are the downfall of work. You're more productive in your natural environment. Their office seems to reflect that: You come in to work, quickly and efficiently, and then you leave and head home to get your real work done.

In contrast, Zappos' office seems to say, "You're already home."

[edit] It's also worth pointing out that these companies are employing very different people. Zappos has a huge focus on customer service, and their "people friendly" office reflects that. The engineers and designers at 37signals, however, very well may appreciate the minimalism and simplicity of their environment.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure those 37signals pictures were taken right after they moved in. Imagine what cubicle hell Zappo's would have looked like when they first moved in.

It would be interesting to see any changes made after a year or so once everyone has settled in a bit.

They were, you're right. The office will change over time as we settle in. It's already a lot more lively than those pictures showed. We have plants and fresh flowers and art and books and some other things starting to make their way into the space. Time takes care of the personality.

I really like that 37S chose actual chalkboards.

What about dust?

Canned air should be as fine as it is for other kinds of dust. Chalk is basically inert, so there are no worries about affecting electronics or anything like that.

I can't write on a chalkboard or be in the same room as one that is being written on. The sound and feel of them gives me a perpetual shiver and extremely strong physical reaction.

The chalkboards would be a significant hindrance to my productivity. I much prefer a whiteboard for this reason.

It appear's we're in opposite camps. :)

I don't object to the sound or dust so much as how much of a pain in the bum they are to write on. Whiteboard lets you write pretty accurately when you want to, whereas chalkboards and sticks of chalk seem to reduce anything other than large sweeps to painful scratchings.

They look very trendy / counter-corporate, but I'd hate having to use the things.

New-office photos are obviously great showcases of design but they feel like those magazines (Dwell, etc.) where they take photos of homes with no laundry or dishes. Showing stuff that's been lived in has its own separate appeal.

> In contrast, Zappos' office seems to say, "You're already home."

I think the worst thing you can do to an employee is start merging the idea of "home" with the idea of "work". It implies sleeping at your desk and never really "leaving". At least, that's how I'd see it, if I still had a FT job.

Full disclosure: I work from home. It's confusing and I'm hoping to get a separate office soon.

> Full disclosure: I work from home. It's confusing and I'm hoping to get a separate office soon.

I'm 100% with you on that one. Working from home, particularly with the same equipment and environment for both fun stuff and professional stuff, is really weird and I find it can dilute my sense of when I'm wearing my professional hat and when I'm on my own time. The result is that both can get disrupted by the other more often than I would prefer. I sometimes get to the end of what feels like a long working day, and find that I have only logged a few hours that are billable to a client. Several other things happened during the day, and while I hadn't registered how much time they were using up before, the time sheet does not lie.

We've actually been setting up a new home office just these past few days, because not having a separate space finally got too weird now both of us are working from home. Just walking into the room, where everything is perfectly tidy and the shelves contain business stationery and the books are technical ones and the hardware is serious business stuff, changes my perspective and makes me want to concentrate on getting useful stuff done Right Now. I still wear suits to meetings with clients for much the same reason, even though I know they wouldn't care if I was just in jeans and a T-shirt: it's my professional face, and it brings with it my professional mindset.

I once read about a guy who had an office in his back room. Every morning he would get up, dress in his work clothes, walk out the front door, walk around the side of his house to the back door, and let himself into his office, even though he could have just walked through the home. I wouldn't go that far myself, but I totally understand why he did it.

Like at the my home, at work my desk is clean, and only has things I require to do work and if I have something else, like tea equipment it sits in the office kitchen not on my desk. I might be a personal preference, but I would hate to collect all kinds of crap on my work desk.

37S is also a smaller company, so I would say that people there regard the whole office as their 'home' or house, not just their workspace. It's designed in a away that you can use the office like your home. You have separated rooms for different tasks and people working there are more like a family sharing a house not like a group of people sharing a space and having their own small private place. Like a family, you don't decorate your common areas (hopefully) by what whatever anybody wants, but more having some style, while allowing personal items in some places.

Zappos would drive me crazy. I have been in an environment like that. It's "cute" at first, but then you realize you're just living in a messy corporate cubicle. It really inhibits work if your job is something such as development or design, in my opinion... just too much visual noise.

37signals office seems virtually distraction-free. If you need groups of people to work together efficiently in an office environment (that is still comfortable and not a cubicle farm), this is the kind of space works well, I think. Because they have so many remote employees, I think they want their real "office" to be Campfire anyway.

There is a significant difference in philosophy with how the companies operate, I think. Zappos wants people to be comfortable (or 'at home') where they work, and 37signals wants people to work wherever they are comfortable.

"Zappos wants people to be comfortable where they work, and 37signals wants people to work wherever they are comfortable."

What a great way to summarise the difference between the two.

The Pixar offices take an interesting middle ground. They have the flair and joy of Zappos but avoid the generic cube aesthetic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/veerles-blog/461586084/

While I like 37signals, their sterile office would drive me nuts, but so would the extreme state of disarray at Zappos'. The Pixar model keeps the craziness slightly organized and not all in view at once.

I love these offices. They have the sophistication of the 37signals and yet without the sterility. There's warmth and inspiring comfort.

Apples to Oranges. Zappos is a support oriented culture whereas folks at 37s need a lot of quite time. I can't imagine Jamis Buck writing all his awesome maze algorithms while surrounded by balloons and tents everywhere.

It's definitely apples-to-oranges.

If you're a phone/email CSR, you might enjoy being in a slightly more stimulating environment because you're daily job duties are less stimulating and more mundane.

If you're working on software, you might enjoy the options of quite space, cleanliness. For a company like 37signals, where design takes such a focus, having a nicely designed and organized space might help inspire the company's output. Also, 37s had previously blogged about holding events in their office, so their physical presence must gel with their online image.

I'm surprised this isn't being upvoted more ... and its the main problem I had with the article. Zappos isn't a creative space/company per se, 37 Signals is ...

Also, 37signals' office has a lot more square footage per employee and looks like they've spent a lot more on the design and materials. That's probably partly a reflection of 37signals' marginal product per employee and partly a reflection of hosting workshops for paying customers there. I'm not sure Zappos could afford the 37signals office aesthetic

This is the whole point. A support/service culture requires constant communication. (And a cheery environment. If you've ever entered a phone support center, you know the cloud of dread, dullness and desparation that's normally there).

37signals needs serenity and calm to be able to think.

The Zappos pictures make me think of someone getting called in "we need to talk about your flair".

It seems apparent that everybody is striving to emulate Tony. I would also venture that their hiring process filters for people amenable to that culture. Could be a distinction without a difference, but some of those "streamers tucked into the dropped ceiling" look a little forced.

I like the Zappos approach - in theory.

However (and maybe I'm a control freak) the imposed clutter of the Zappos office would drive me nuts! No place to think and concentrate because of a constant barrage of visual noise.

Similarly, in theory I also like my roommate.

But some of the mess he imposes on my life drives me mad.

Something tells me that if someone at 37signals put up a huge green and blue tent around their desk, they wouldn’t get a high-five in the hallway. The unspoken message to 37signals employees is this: “Don’t touch. Don’t put your stamp on this office.”

Or maybe the 37signals employees had the good taste to pass on turning their workspace into a kindergarten classroom when given the option.

Zappos workspace is bad from programmer point of view. Open space with lot of crap, phones on tables. May be this workspace is good for communication, someone could feel more happy in this workspace and so on but it's terrible for hacking. It looks like this envirement encourage interraptions. 37s office much better for productive work.

You say that, but Zappos' offices look more like most hacker personal spaces I've seen (just replace streamers with cables and turn the lights right down..) I know more geeks who live in a mess than those who adopt a stylistic, minimal approach. But maybe I know too many Unix nerds.. ;-)

Just because hackers live like slobs it does not mean that living like a slob makes you a better hacker. Maybe these hacker slobs would be more productive if they had a clean work environment.

You are confusing gamers with programmers

That's not the case (though admittedly most of them were also gamers ;-)). Most Unix beards I know live in, well, not exactly filth but "jumble."

I visited the Zappos office while I was in Las Vegas recently (proof: http://dis.tl/haPmaA) and must attest to how unbelievably amazing and awesome their offices are. The culture and morale is simply breathtaking.

That said, I think that it's tied much more closely to the culture than to just the nik-naks that litter the office (though clearly they are a part of it).

I like this post and it's good to get a look at the two offices but it would be great to get more of an understanding of HOW the office environment affects the office culture.

Your office ≠ your product

Not sure this is true. I think it has to do with culture. I'm sure a lot of the adjectives one would use to describe 37signals's office could also be used to describe the company and/or their products.

What a reflction of the attitudes of each company towards their customers. Zappos is all about coming down to the level of their users and having fun with them. 37Signals has finally built their ivory tower, and they want customers to think of their product as a door into that tower.

If they were political parties, Zappos would be the FDR Democrats and 37Signals would be the Libertarians.

Having worked in two disparate offices; a Capital One debt recovery phone bank and Electronic Arts; both of which follow the Zappos model, I'd say that if it doesn't get in the way of production be it code or money collection then why waste time on non-productive issues. To me this is much the same as insisting on suits for programmers...

I worked at EA as well and it's exactly what I thought of when I saw the Zappos offices.

Office design should reflect what the employees in the office are trying to accomplish. As a developer, all of that crazy stuff in Zappos' office would be a huge distraction to me. I haven't checked, but I'd be a little surprised if developers' cubes/offices were as over-the-top at Zappos as those for their customer service reps.

Look at the markets they sell to. 37Signals needs to remain professional and appear competent, because they routinely buck established business "truths" and this draws attention.

I wouldn't listen to a person telling me they have a better way of conducting business from inside a green tent. Sorry, I'd think they were an immature kid...

...which is exactly why Zappos' approach works. They distribute a hip, cool product to people based on other businesses' reputation. The only thing they need to do is ship something once the right way to convince a retail customer they are competent enough to take a pair of shoes (or whatever) from point A to point B.

People have very different expectations with regards to the deliverables of the companies. The office space simply flows from that.

Interesting to compare these with http://positivesharing.com/2006/10/10-seeeeeriously-cool-wor... -- especially Pixar's office which is downright beautiful.

Personally, while I'm not so fond of the total mess Zappos's offices look like, I find 37s a bit too tidy, cold and uninviting.

Bottom line - it is more important who are your neighbors (assuming you are working together) than what the place looks like. Smart and friendly coworkers are priceless!

I think the styles are more similar than Ryan makes it out - both have control over their environments, but in different ways. At Zappos, they have standard half-height cubes and they control their environment by sticking things on the wall and hanging it from the ceiling. At 37signals, I recall that they designed that office - they had a deeper influence on their environment than Zappos. Same thing, but a different style, and each one very much demonstrates the company culture.

Okay, but if you are hired after the new offices were designed, you now have no input into the design and no "right" to customize the environment. I"m not a fan of the Zappos office (it would drive me bonkers) but I do think folks should have a right to express their personality in their work environment so that they can feel more at "home". 37signals doesn't just look clean, it looks severe, sterile and unwelcoming - I remember a lot of dot-com marketing firms having offices like that in New York (anyone else remember the shark tanks at KPE?)

As I look around my work space right now, it's reasonably "business-like" but it's also obvious there is a lot of WORK getting done - white boards covered in post-its and sketches, index cards with stories tacked to the wall, etc. Those artifacts allow our team to cooperate better, but they're also part of how we "own" the space and make it ours.

I would like to see what the 37signals office looks like after a year.

Both have positive notes but I think if the two offices bred the offspring would be closer to what I consider ideal. There is a lot of noise with all the flair at Zappos but the 37s space lacks fun & individuality. So something with the clean aesthetic of 37s with a shot of Zappos individualism would bring it home for me.

I think if I had to work in the Zappos office, I'd probably develop at least one nervous tic by about lunch time. I don't see how anyone could concentrate to get actual work done, with all the visual and likely auditory distraction of such a cluttered, bright, flashy space. I don't just get distracted if there's a lot of clutter around me, I actually get depressed, become extremely introverted and irritated, and the part of my brain that cares about stuff just shuts down. I'm the same way if I'm around a lot of noise. I probably have some sort of sensory issue there.

My home office is quiet and free of clutter, but still warm and inviting, with about 8 different adjustable levels of lighting, depending on my mood. It took me a while to get it the way I want it, and it is by no means fancy, but it's the most comfortable work environment I've had so far.

This seems like it is because 37signals is a primarily design driven company, while zappos is more of a backend engineering company.

The design folks, like the article says, are more concerned with a clean presentation and tidy appearance, the programmer style is more concerned with being a place that they can feel is surreal and comfortable enough that they can just work there continuously and feel comfort in the geekiness.

That being said, I work squarely in the latter camp and am glad that I don't feel obligated to take part in the corporate sponsored 'whackyness'! Maybe because I don't like feeling obligated to be in the office more, than necessary. I like having random stuff at my desk, but this reeks of Office Space style flair.

Zappos and 37signals hire (for the most part) different kinds of people for very different jobs. I, for example, would be much more likely to work for 37signals, and I also find their office much more appealing. I don't think that's a coincidence.

I guess 37signals hires employees that like the design of the place. i.e. personally, I really like how 37signals is designed and I wouldn't even think of putting something weird on the wall.. so in a way, 37signals let me design the place how I want it to be (clean and empty). So, by working in a clean place, I control my environment by letting it stay clean.

In contrast, working at Zappos's office, how would I be able to control my clean environment?

37signals office is similar to left-brain: ordered, clean, and structured.

Zappos office is right-brain oriented: a bunch of spontaneous stuff everywhere.

What this actually means is that Zappos overload and "shutdown" right brain, making left brain talk to people (verbal communication is the left brain's job).

37signals overload the left brain, making right brain hack software and come up with out-of-the-box solutions to problems.

I don't really care what my office looks like. The most important thing to me is the team I'm working with followed closely by the things I'm working on. The appearance of the office space is so far down the list of my priorities as to be negligible.

As long as I'm excited to go to work, the actual appearance of the office makes very little difference to me.

37 signals looks like a library, especially with the study booth style desks at the sides of the windows and the carpet style. The wide hallways add to the public lobby effect. I love the hardwood flooring, the central walls and the meeting rooms. The phone booth rooms with rubber sound dampening panels are genius

I've worked in a zappos like office. The problem is not the mess on the cubicles -- I was ok with that. The problem: it was too noisy. You could hardly concentrate or think. And the work sucked. The technical infrastructure was horrible.

Interestingly, Rackspace--another very service-oriented company--has an office culture very similar to Zappos. I wonder if it's common to more companies highly focused on customer support as a differentiator.

Summary: "Look how different these offices are. But wait, it turns out the way offices look doesn't matter."

Awesome post ! thanks for this !

shoe sales vs programming

big difference in type of people needed and what those people need to be happy and productive.

summary: too much flair vs not enough

(Office Space movie reference. Hilarious must see.)

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