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Early to late twenties for me. I struggled through AA but I found it to be too defeatist. I couldn’t get clean framing the problem the way that they do.

The turning point for me was a joke by a stand up comedian that kind of glorified being a drunk. Doug Stanhope had a line similar to “addiction is just a thing you like doing more than living your life”. I chose to live my life. I got hobbies, took classes, worked a lot and I got through the first few months by staying busy. Over time I balanced out my life schedule (also finding out I have workaholic tendencies).

Everyone’s path is different. I can’t believe mine has worked for 6 years. AA isn’t for everyone, but it works for many. It should be the default first option for people wanting out.

Have you read/seen Trainspotting? That's essentially the message

I feel like my whole life is a series of addictions designed to prevent me from drudging through the extreme anger and sadness I have in my life. At least, luckily, I don't like to drink so excessively.

I've been there. Have you figured out how to work through those deep seated emotional states?

No. Yes? That's what I mean, my whole life is a way of dealing with them by using escape mechanisms. HN is one of them. Lesser one.

Yep. I can't be totally sure the extent to which I've unpacked my issues versus improved my ability to mask them. I'm positive I do both, but a great deal of good fortune means that I'll have to wait for the inevitable dark times to find out.

Very true. In fact, I doubt few people would be content being alone with themselves and their thoughts and nothing to distract them.

I reread Burroughs when I get like that. From Wild Boys, in the chapter "Dead Child":

I held out my hands no more power left in them head against a tree it was cold on my eyes moon that night solid I could touch almost couldn't get the leg was broken and teeth tore past the bones at me begging for help pictures all cut up knife had fallen I lay there my pieces moved and shifted against a tree I spit up from my stomach green when day came and mist steamed up to the top of the high tree just under the leaves at the top and looking down I could see my body lying there the leg all twisted and the face caved in lips drawn back showing teeth I could see and hear but I couldn't talk without a throat without a tongue sun moon and stars on the face down there worms in the leg weeds growing through the bones.

The issue is for many people this is an unstable equilibrium. When things start going wrong people drink more which makes things worse.

My best friend was a raging alcoholic for 20 years, he would go through cycles of moderate then heavy drinking, hit bottom, give it up for a few months, and repeat. Unfortunately he simply loved alcohol and really did not want to give it up.

Total abstinence seems like it gives up a huge positive, but insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Many people simply can’t have alcohol in their lives and be happy long term. That might not be you, but it’s something to think about.

In the moments where addiction has crept into my life (I've been fortunate enough to observe it and have a good enough life that I could correct it; I can see how if things were worse, I might not have had that control), I've always had this awful feeling that I was just escaping. The fastest route out of consciousness, no effort, no feeling, no hope for myself. I think for many of us, addiction really is about escaping the ordinary because when your ordinary becomes painful, coping can become a tremendous burden. I don't hold peoples addictions against them at all... If you prefer drinking over your life, you're probably battling something awful. Maybe it's things happening right now, maybe it's something that happened to you. Maybe you have acute mental illness that's virtually undetectable to others and you've tried to live the way everyone expects for 20 years +, and it's too much now. I think this is quite common. If that's how someone feels, they have my sympathy. My life has been pretty good all things said, but I've felt incredibly overwhelmed at times. Life can be hard as hell. Sometimes you just want to turn it off for a while.

When did you realize it was too much? Number of drinks? Hangovers? What was "heavily" 3/4 nights a week? What precisely was the moment you were brought to your knees as you say?

Number of drinks is not a good way, in my experience. It’s a detail that isn’t important unless you are trying to game your own standard. You will convince yourself that your arbitrary line makes you ok.

Hangovers turn into waking up drunk at some point. For me, they were a reason to drink. Withdrawal is like a hangover that lasts for weeks. The whole time, you will want a drink.

My bottom was the realization that my alcoholism was a way of checking out of my life. Once I realized that, I just had to start doing other things and dealing with the problems I tried to drown.

When you are in the pit of addiction, the first things you need are positive alternatives to drinking. It could be AA but I went a different route. I am not a meticulous scheduler, but I had a rigid schedule for the first few months. I even planned out my free time. I put myself back out into the world, and found that I loved it and the people in it.

Taking a bath as they say (my uncle used to do it until he developed cancer) is indicative of a problem IMO. When you wake up at 9 AM and start drinking, get drunk the whole day, sleep and repeat the whole cycle, that's when you definitively have a problem.

Yes and no. I know many people that would be well served if they removed this idea of, "Well, i can't be an alcoholic because i don't drink beer for breakfast" notion from their minds. I was never like that either, but I did use it as an escape at almost every opportunity I could. I would spend an enormous portion of my waking life rumination about alcohol and strategizing over how to get away with it. When will i start drinking today? How much will I drink and not have a hangover? Well, theres that dinner at 7 tonight. Do you think they'll each have one or two drinks? Would i get some stares if i have three drinks?

I'll be a year sober next month.

Sure, that is definitely a justification one can use. My point is that you need some reference point to compare your own behavior with. There are some people that should have never started drinking in the first place. That I agree with. It's a nexus of genetics and environment. A lot of it is influenced by cultural norms.

Pardon the side step but it reminds me of my life not long ago. Replace browsing with drinking. Obviously less harmful 'addiction' but the 'do a single thing to somehow avoid life everyday' sounds like an interesting diagnosis pattern.

Realizing it's too much and being brought to your knees are usually two different times.

"Realizing it" happens gradually after an established pattern of behavior. Usually, years. You're like, I seem to drink a lot more than everyone else and maybe that's not good. Eventually other problems kick in like sleep issues, anxiety, possibly weight gain - and the solution is always drinking because you stop worrying about it, or can at least say "well this is one of the last times." You realize that this is a bigger issue and then decide to stop, but something inevitably draws you back in. There's always something. And since you slipped back in, you somehow find your way to drinking as much or even more than you did. And then you realize the issue is even bigger - you've established a pattern of trying to stop and it never sticks, no matter how sincere you were in that moment of decision. No matter how much you poured down the drain. No matter how much you know that being sober is actually the good life and that your problems are much easier managed when staying away from drinking.

And after many attempts of this, trying and failing, but probably knowing that deep down there's a part of you that doesn't want to stop, you hit a point where you feel the worst you've ever felt in your life, hurt someone, or instigated another serious problem. And if you're honest, you know where it all started.

Then you are on your knees. Some people try to fix the problem themselves in earnest, some seek help, some stay in the cycle and break out down the road, and some stay in until the (statistically early) end.

As someone that's tried aa meetings and found sobriety through other means I want to echo that finding people with your story and your struggles is one of the keys to recovery. I didn't find these people in the aa meetings I went. Or on therapists couches. I still haven't really found my people, but I have found that I'm not alone in my struggles and that I cannot escape through substance abuse. This was my turning point in allowing me to reign in my substance use. Did it solve any of the problems I had before? No. But I've got one less problem now.

After going sober, how did you deal with social situations where either other people were moderately drinking or you were expected to be gregarious?

Great question, the first year my sponsor said "avoid those events or have an escape plan"

avoiding was a non starter so the "escape plan" was I committed to leave, akwardly as it may be, before i picked up a drink.

aka if someobdy was pressuring me to drink to the point i felt i had to i would say "ok get me a beer i have to go to the bathroom" and then disappear and blame it on an upset stomach

and believe the truth that unless you take somebody else's drink away from them or ask them to stop drinking nobody cares if you have a beer or a coke in your hand

After the first year I learned that caffiene has a similar effect on me in social situations if i need to ramp up and can be just as engaging / moreso

> avoiding was a non starter so the "escape plan" was I committed to leave, akwardly as it may be, before i picked up a drink.

> aka if someobdy was pressuring me to drink to the point i felt i had to i would say "ok get me a beer i have to go to the bathroom" and then disappear and blame it on an upset stomach

I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but I don't understand -- why was pretending to get sick easier than telling the truth -- "I can't, I've quit drinking", or a softened version, "I'm not drinking tonight", etc.? Or did you start off with that and they'd continue to pressure you? I don't think I know anyone who'd be that much of an a-hole, unless they were already very drunk themselves.

Some people don’t want to publicly embrace the label “alcoholic” and all the social stigma it comes with.

If you openly tell people that you “quit drinking” they will likely either assume alcoholism or openly ask you why. They are not likely to assume you just decided you don’t like the taste, so now you’ve got the label.

If instead you tell people you aren’t “drinking tonight”, you will absolutely get pressure to drink, because “drinking is fun”, and you don’t have a “real reason not to drink”. I’ve seen it many times and I’m ashamed to say that I’ve participated before as well, not because it was my intent to actually pressure someone to drink, but because it was “good natured teasing”. If I had a friend who loved steak and he suddenly ordered a salad at the steakhouse, I’d similarly be tempted to tease him about his dinner choice, even though I don’t actually care if he had steak, or wine, or whatever. I’ve since recognized that this behavior is not healthy and tried to weed it out of myself, but it’s very common.

This is by the way, why vegans complain about people teasing them or judging them about their food choices. With very few exceptions, it’s probably not malicious. It’s just people being stupid and not realizing the impact they’re having on others. In some cases, this can be just annoying. In others, this can be truly problematic.

>This is by the way, why vegans complain about people teasing them or judging them about their food choices. With very few exceptions, it’s probably not malicious. It’s just people being stupid and not realizing the impact they’re having on others.

It could be that people feel judged, criticized by someone who doesn't drink alcohol/eat meat. That person seems to be setting themselves up as better than others, or more ethical, or with better habits. And they spoil the vibe and camaraderie. People feel attacked and feel justified in striking back, or release that psychological tension with jokes that only seem funny to those with the tension.

Sure. That’s doubtless also a factor for some.

In many rooms that kind of honesty can easily be interpreted as weakness. And it’s not so much what they say to you in the moment (we all have to keep up our pretenses)... it’s what they say when you’re out of the room. Is it fair? Nope. But that’s how it works in certain social settings.

Everyone likes an honest person until they meet an honest person. Lol.

I wish people didn’t have to feel pressure to hide behind platitudes and white lies just to be socially acceptable.

> Or did you start off with that and they'd continue to pressure you?

I'm not an alcoholic myself, but I drink _very_ rarely so I'm often in a similar boat.

If you say "I'm not drinking" or "I don't drink" a very common follow up question is: "oh? why?"

For me, I've always been able to shrug my shoulders and say: "I dunno, just never felt like it". But I could _very_ easily see a recovering alcoholic feeling like they're in a very awkward position once that question comes up.

The last 20 seconds or so of this clip of Jim Gaffigan rings pretty true to me: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/fq3bvp/comedy-central-presents...

Because someone who is pushing alcohol on you is not thinking about you. They are thinking about about how they want you to have alcohol, which has nothing to do with you. You do not owe them an explanation about why their plan for you doesn't work for you. To look at it another way, it easier to explain things to someone who is trying to listen.

A lot of times it's just an uncomfortable question to answer, even more so for someone who is already a bit socially awkward. I've never had a problem with alcohol, but routinely go through periods where I just abstain for various reasons. And in those periods I get all the questions about why I'm not drinking. It's just boring to answer them over and over. And to be clear, no one is being a jerk about it, just more of a curiosity. Many people can't imagine not drinking, so it's a surprise.

As an aside, a trick I use to control the number of drinks in a business situation is to order liquor neat. I can sip a scotch for an entire meal while other people drink multiple beers or mixed drinks. Don't order something that's easy to drink.

I quit drinking 12 years ago but made it a point to carry on with my day to day life and not avoid situations. If I'm in a situation where people are moderately drinking, I ... don't drink. If people ask me why I don't drink, I ask them why they do drink. At the end of the day, whether I'm getting shitfaced or not drinking at all is my business. I have had a few people make a big deal about it and I just tell them they're being an asshole and they must be really insecure if making a big deal about me NOT drinking is all they're focused on.

If you have social anxiety, talk to a therapist. My drinking got out of control from a cycle having anxiety which was relieved by drinking which would cause anxiety.

Life is pretty boring in the beginning when you quit. You start to realize how much of your social life is dictated by drinking and how much time and money you spend on it.

11 years sober here. I think my experience mirrors yours, especially how peoples' questions about OUR lack of alcohol are masking their own insecurities about THEIR alcohol consumption. Spending most of my adult life in two alcohol-heavy communities (the military and Japan), I see it all the time, but I try not to throw it back in their faces.

Given your success, I'm surprised that you feel the need to remain anonymous. Is it only social stigma, or do you think that there would be business or professional consequences if people knew that you are an alcoholic in recovery?

I’m not surprised at all. Why cause yourself trouble by airing dirty laundry? Zero upside for him to do so, and really no reason to. Knowing he is X person doesn’t add anything to the message, it would almost certainly have blowback for him.

Agreed. His message is a gesture enough.

what's the blowback that you envision? maybe one of his investors will say "you used to be an alcoholic so we're pulling funding"?

Yes?

Pride is one of the cardinal sins. Doing a peacock walk creates and reinforces the type of self delusion that got you in trouble to begin with.

That’s also an aa concept. It’s literally in the name. There’s something about print and interviews and such but I don’t recall the details.

I know a functional alcoholic that drins a very large amount of alcohol but doesn't get drunk from it. He wants to stop but refuses to go through long PAWs. How long was it until you felt your normal self ?

a couple of weeks, for alcoholics w/significant PAWs they should work with a doctor or inpatient in addition to AA or similar early 2 week program, of which there are many i can reccomend depending on location

other interesting timing stuff for me

30 days until believing i could actually do it "one day at a time"

90 days until the cravings subsided reguarly

1 year until cravings for the most part behind

2 years until no more alcohol dreams !

Thank you for this information.

> He wants to stop but refuses to go through long PAWs

As someone who's about to cross 4 years sober who was so stubborn he lost everything (a cardboard box would have been an upgrade), this is just f*cking hilarious. Boo hoo, he doesn't want withdrawal. Lol. Addiction doesn't work that way.

If they're a real drunk, and if what you say is true about him/her not getting drunk, they are going to have much more serious health problems than some PAWs. They are going to start having fatty liver, neuropathy, stomach problems, blah, blah, blah. Once it starts from heavy alcoholism, it doesn't stop until you stop or die. PAWs be damned. The only difference is the booze can and WILL kill you. That's one thing that the booze industry never tells you. Hell, people are still surprised to learn that alcohol is one of 2 or 3 substances where even the withdrawal can kill you. It's just not all fun and games even if you don't have the addictive alcoholic genes.

How religious is AA?

Step 3 of the 12 steps: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

If I had to give you a number, 20% (with a church being 100%)?

But it really depends on the group. There non-religious modifications to the AA program. They don't say a prayer every 3 minutes. It definitely worth going to a meeting or two just to listen to their stories.

My brother goes to one in Utah where they're actually very careful to stay away from any religious aspects. They understand that not everyone in Utah is LDS and they're very careful to make it so everyone feels included and isn't turned off by any religious undertones. I went with him to support him for his very first meeting and it was surprising how strict this rule was.

Per the comments below it's what you make it and some groups skew more towards a traditional "God" understanding

my experience in general with norcal AA groups is "higher power" is used instead of "God" almost exclusively, people are very careful to not push God / religious understanding / etc

At step 3 you have to turn it over to a "higher power" which is a reflection of the understanding that it is unlikely you, yourself have the power to control alcohol and there must be something "Greater than" you - that can be "physics" that can be "the moon" and a guy who has been sober a very long time in the meeting i go to says his higher power is the "light fixture"

Just FYI my friend started attending this non-religious alternative to AA and she has good things to say about it:

https://www.smartrecovery.org/

Usually nauseatingly so, at least in my unfortunate court-ordered brush with the organization.