Fascia encases tissues and organs and may have widespread effects (2019)
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In recent times, my research and experimentation has led me to explanations and treatments that focus on the fascia, and whilst I've not yet achieved full recovery (a recovery time of several years is par for the course with these kinds of issues), this approach does seem to be helping to improve my conditions.
The approaches I've been undertaking include yoga/pilates-type stretching exercises and specific types of massage that seek to break up fascia "adhesions" [1].
I'm being careful not to make any specific claims of diagnoses or remedies, as I'm fully aware from my own experience (and background as a scientifically-minded person) that this this whole topic is nascent in terms of solid scientific evidence, and rife with pseudoscience.
But it does seem clear to me that there is "something there", and that more research into this topic could likely lead to explanations and remedies for conditions like "chronic pain" and "chronic fatigue", which many people currently endure for years or for life without understanding or relief.
[1] It's not the only work I've been doing; as I've written about here before, diet, cardio exercise and emotional work have all been part of my regimen for some years, but since introducing the practices that focus on fascia, my condition has improved faster and in different ways.
Here is a little fun exercise to show the effect of fascia : bend over, straight legs and see how far your hands go, just measuring how close you get to your feet (they don’t have to touch, don’t push yourself, just see where you end up) Now take a tennisbal or small round object and stand or move with one foot on it for a while, and roll a bit especially on the arch of the foot, like a massage. Now do the exercise again, bending over with your hands towards your feet and see what happens.
This wouldn't really convince me because I find any additional stretching helps with my reach and I'm more likely to chalk it up to a warm up effect or maybe some other effect on the the tendons or muscles. I don't see any particular reason to attribute it to fascia release.
This doesn’t pass the sniff test. Your pelvis tilts by more than a degree just from slightly tightening your glutes.
Also, how does sitting shorten the back muscles? Sitting puts the back in a mild state of flexion.
Put another way, [citation needed]
I gave her a copy to read and it has helped greatly. My PT told another one of her patients with similar symptoms who has gone from mostly bed/housebound to regular outings.
People swear by trigger points , and as it is a relatively recent discovery, not every massage therapist knows about them.
And I understand why, it's because enough of a majority of people on HN aren't very open minded nor supportive of open discussing theory or anything unproven, so like where I briefly shared my thoughts here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21961032 - it quickly got -3 points, and deemed unacceptable for anyone else to chime in if they have similar thoughts or theories or experiences to share to add to a body of knowledge, even if mostly anecdotal.
Edit: Downvoted for sharing my observations of people's behaviour on HN? Brilliant.
I am not sure why that is. Will you get ignored when you demonstrate something that works but say “I have no idea why or how it works” ?
For most people I think that “it works but we don’t know why,” translates to “it doesn’t really work.” Thus a fake explanation adds credibility and believability. And if it does work, then people feel reassured and confident in the fake explanation.
It’s all pretty tricky human psychology though.
The story of Ignaz Semmelweis seems to indicate that medicine is different from physics in that aspect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Placebo-controlled_stu...
Really? So a limited number of intellectual elite are the only people capable of accepting faith-based arguments?
> It’s all pretty tricky human psychology though.
Indeed.
It's ironic that virtually all drugs are discovered via effects and not designed via a known mechanism.
Once a novel compound is discovered, and the mechanism characterized, tweaking it to get better binding affinity for the affected binding site, or reduced affinity to a side-effect-producing site, is tractable and is practiced in industry and research.
> Perhaps there's a relationship between the perceived need for a scientific sounding explanation and compatibility with traditional medicine for a particular idea.
I think there is a chemical reward system in play in order to even want to seek information, of any quality. Even in its most utterly click-baity, priori, emotionally contrived or pseudo-scientific form...(needing something "science.")
It isn't as deep of a reward system as the one engaged where you are totally in awe of natures order and discover the capacity to produce information and thus direct some control over it through planning...(demonstrable compatibility.)(its too bad the click-bait people aren't selling better dope.)
That biology produces complex molecules which are even 'compatible between organisms in plant and animal is pretty awe inspiring. And, that the control of human intention has any control over nature, electrochemically or otherwise, likewise so.
A couple movies come to mind: https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pleasure-finding-things-out/ https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/botany-desire/
I've been doing empirical research on "the vibe" for that reason. It is commonly enough discussed in popular culture and is clearly valuable. Yet, there is almost nothing scholarly written about it. To me, as a scientist, that says "low hanging fruit." Any association with the esoteric will create a kind of forcefield around it, so many fewer scientists will have studied it. But, in my opinion, the topics are avoided for the wrong reasons.
Subjectively, people report a variety of sensations, warmth or coolness, tingling, a fullness or emptiness or both, etc.
edit: I forgot to mention accelerated healing (the whole point of Reiki, der! lol)
Metaphorically, you might say that meditation is like a lamp while Reiki is like a laser. (It's not a very good metaphor.)
The main specific difference is that Reiki is for healing. It engenders and accelerates healing physically, emotionally, and mentally.
As far as the subjective sensations of chi flow they tend to be more dramatic with Reiki than meditation, but again, so many variables that it's hard to give solid generalizations.
the cervix also modifies itself under stress (child birth), stimulated by oxytocin (aka cervical ripening) or other hormones
Stress ramps up blood pressure, causes changes in the properties of blood directly, increases inflammation, down regulates the immune system and healing in general, increases muscle tension generally, constricts blood vessels, causes changes in hormones and cell signalling molecules in general.
The first thing I thought that sounded like was ancient Chinese medicine and the Meridian system. [1]
Next I thought of the reflexology diagrams of areas of the bottom of the foot being connected to different parts of the body. The foot is a body part particularly rich in fascia.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_(Chinese_medicine)
I believe that connective tissues do have real function and massages could have some mild health benefits. But I don't like this article because it doesn't sound like science. And there are quite a few people promoting pseudo-scientific ideas that can influence patients to put off effective treatments.
The article is specifically about the fact that the scientific community has little knowledge or consensus about this topic, but that hypotheses are being formulated and research undertaken.
This is the epitome of how science progresses in as-yet unexplored fields.
> there are quite a few people promoting pseudo-scientific ideas that can influence patients to put off effective treatments
Perhaps you should provide evidence that measures up to your own standards: what data is there to demonstrate that significant numbers of people have died of cardiovascular illness because they tried to treat serious limb swelling with just massage?
On the flipside, here's some relevant data:
– "Drug overdose deaths involving prescription opioids rose from 3,442 in 1999 to 17,029 in 2017" [1]
– "Orthopedic pain (34.8%) was the primary reason for an opioid prescription, followed by [...], back pain (14.0%), and headache (12.9%)" [2]
If it turns out that fascia-related issues are frequently a factor in these kinds of chronic pain conditions, which currently seems at least somewhat plausible, it may well turn out to be a scandal that this topic has not yet been more heavily researched, given that many people outside the pharmaceutical sector of the health industry have been talking about it for years or even decades.
[1] https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/o...
[2] https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(19)30216-8/pdf
The epitome of how science progresses is diligently applying the scientific method (repeatedly) and not fucking with the results to generate hype or feed a pet theory.
The biggest news out of this is that stretching and exercise are still good for your health and you should do them more often. Massage probably won't hurt but if you have serious health problems you should probably still see a doctor.
Nobody in the article or this discussion thread has said we should do this, or said anything else that seriously contradicts anything you've said.
Not a single person has said anything to contradict the notion that you should see a doctor if you have serious health problems.
The article is very clearly about early stage observations and preliminary research.
These grave warnings are an unnecessary downer in a discussion that should be focused on interesting possibilities.
> It is based on Rolf's ideas about how the human body's "energy field" can benefit when aligned with the Earth's gravitational field
Nope.
> My reader will not wonder, that, after having ascertained the superior goodness of dephlogisticated air by mice living in it, and the other tests above mentioned, I should have the curiosity to taste it myself.
Nope.
It’s important to remember that unbelievable beliefs associated with observations do not implicitly negate the observations, especially when it comes to understudied areas of the human body.
What we know about the vagus nerve today seemed insane and nonsensical fifty years ago, but historical writings for hundreds of years are filled with tales of drinking magic elixirs that change people’s mind and body. Magic? Probably not. Valid? Possibly so.
Further study is required, if only to separate the magic from the biology.
^ https://thoracickey.com/joseph-priestley-oxygen-and-the-enli...
http://www.rsi.org.uk/whatis/damaged_muscles.html
And something called trigger point therapy:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myofascial-pa...
Edit: Thanks for the downvotes and supporting philosophy and an open discussion for what hasn't been proven! You'd almost certainly also downvote theoretical physicists and people historically who brainstormed as to possible reasons the planets moved the way they did or other physics properties - examples of which exist where they wrote about where they had part of the idea right but not fully. How about adding to the conversation instead of being lazy and downvoting to suppress topics you don't seemingly have experience with? You know you could say "I don't have the same experience" or "I experience things this way". Or perhaps if you don't have any understanding or experience of related to things then maybe stay out of the conversation?
I value this community for many things. But open mindedness outside of the the scientific and engineering orthodoxy isn't one of them.
Don't do that here. Just accept it; sometimes it's on you, sometimes it's on them, complaining never helps.
eg : "If you talk to most surgeons, they would think of it as ‘what you cut through'"
Surgeons actively use fascia to ease peeling off one structure of the other. They actively use fascia as conduit from an incision to deeper parts of the body; literally, to stick a hand in.
Eg: most of the article uses the term "fascia" in away akin to an "organ", i.e.: "fascia is everywhere".
That means the author did not fully grasp the concept (if at all).
Think of "fascia" (plural) as "sheets". You have many such "sheets" in your body. (I know that term and this concept were mentioned in the article; but not in away that conveyed a useful or fully correct understanding).
The existence of fascia has long since been known. Testut and Latarjet extensively described fascial anatomy... in the end of the 18th century!
Fascia are known pathways for spread of disease. Fascia cause compartment-syndrome in limbs.
etc.
It's fascianating :-) how this is now described as something new and almost magical...
It wasn't discovered previously because it shrivels or thins out after death, something like that.
I remember reading about it a few years ago. It was like we had found a new organ.
“ Meet Your Interstitium, a Newfound "Organ" These fluid-filled spaces were found in the body’s connective tissue”
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meet-your-interst...
Compression, dry needling, tape, and so on. And despite scientists rolling their eyes, the athletes seem happy.
As am I. And quite frankly, that’s good enough for me. Though I won’t claim it’s not placebo. And I won’t claim it will work for everybody.
In sports where there’s little to no money to be made, you’ll find even more of these anecdotes. It’s quite amusing, really.
Edit: pithiness
I'm an MD, I have performed a lot of dissections of and through fascias. It's absolutely interesting, there's A LOT we don't now. Let's not reduce the complexity to "releasing the fascia".
Thanks for conceding that, as a mainstream medical professional.
But maybe give people a break.
Given that there's a lot we don't know, it's fair enough for laypeople to talk about it in fuzzy terms and use metaphors that make sense to them, until your profession has more detailed knowledge to share.
As one of the many people who has suffered severe pain and debilitating illness for many years, which has not responded to conventional medical treatment but has responded in interesting ways to various practices that purport to address problems with the fascia, I appeal to you to dial down the know-all attitude and be part of a good-faith discussion from which we can all learn and benefit.
EDIT: In response to your question “What does "releasing the fascia" even mean?”, this quote from a recent medical journal paper [1] may suggest an answer:
There are some researchers who suggest strongly that any change in the viscoelasticity of the fascial system activates the nociceptors.3,12 The hyaluronic acid becomes adhesive and less lubricated, altering the lines of forces within the various fascial layers.3 This mechanism could be one of the causes of articular stiffness and pain in the morning.11 In fact, the stiffness experienced by some patients when they wake up in the morning could be related not with the joint but with the fascial system: if there is a minor quantity of hyaluronic acid or when it is not equally distributed, the tissue is dehydrated and has less possibility of sliding.3,11,12
So as I understand it, what people refer to as "releasing the fascia" describes a mechanism to detach adhesions that form between the fascia layers due to this reduced viscoelasticity.
I claim no expertise on this topic and cannot vouch for the medical validity of this paper; I just learn what I can from the material available, and apply it to my own healing efforts where it may be applicable.
when my GF started med school, she was told "half of what we teach you here will be proven wrong"
I don't think anyone in the medical profession actually thinks they know everything or that a lot is unknown.
Any surgeon or occupational therapist can talk about fascia for hours. There is nothing new in this article that has not been known for decades if not centuries. (search Scholar pre-1700 and there are plenty talking about fascia.)
To draw a parallel, it is like writing an article about using bank debit cards, instead of writing checks. Or, dealing with an automated teller machine instead walking into a bank to get cash.
Anecdote and informal observation has always been, and must necessarily be, a prior stage to formal evidence-gathering.
That the evidence-gathering is only starting to happen now indicates nothing about what the outcomes may be.
But the fact that there continue to be vast numbers of people suffering "mystery" and "incurable" illnesses means there really needs to be far more of this kind of observation and early-stage evidence gathering.
I'd invite you to do some reflecting on what motivates you to be so dismissive of research that could turn out to have huge benefits for huge numbers of people.
Exercises/interventions based around the fascia have a long history in sports, martial arts, and exercise. Although not conclusive, the success of the athletes and martial artists who follow those approaches constitute evidence.
What you're talking about are anecdotes heavily tainted by survivorship and confirmation bias.