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Comment by i0exception | Hacker News Reader

If you're interested in buying one of these, Unicomp (https://www.pckeyboard.com) purchased the rights to continue making Model M style keyboards once Lexmark removed them from their line of products.

If you want to buy one of the originals, https://clickykeyboards.com has them.

Also, the Model F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_F_keyboard) is considered by many as being superior to the Model M. IBM made far fewer Model Fs compared to the Ms, so if you find one of these in the wild, it'll be really expensive. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com is trying to re-create the original Model F.

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> If you're interested in buying one of these, Unicomp ...

Or get a used Model M at a flea market, on eBay, or the like. They are relatively indestructible, and generally still work fine 30+ years after production.

> if you find [a Model F] in the wild, it'll be really expensive

This is a recenct phenomenon. The price e.g. on eBay has gone way up in the past 10 years. You used to be able to buy them for quite cheap. It’s absurd that people will spend >$100 for an XT keyboard with its overlong spacebar, terrible layout, and obsolete communications protocol.

There were hundreds of thousands if not millions of Model F keyboards produced (both XT and AT varieties). The keyboard being recreated in https://www.modelfkeyboards.com is something different: a very obscure banking keyboard, cf. http://kishy.ca/?p=648

> They are relatively indestructible.

I can second that. I have the pleasure of having my grandfather's Model M ('87) and I use it nearly every day. I had to clean it extensively when I first got it, since both grandparents smoked in their house. Cleaned up nicely, good as new. To think, grandma wanted to throw it out!

I've flown with it several times... Gotten a few smiles from older TSA agents. Haven't mailed it, but its gone both under the seat and in checked baggage and survives each time. (It fits snugly in my messenger bag).

I use it a lot more than my laptop's keyboard and I've had to replace the laptop's up arrow a couple of times...

Oh, and it works wonders with my father's text editor too (vi, though I prefer vim).

> I have the pleasure of having my grandfather's Model M ('87)

Yikes. Thanks for that little kick in the pants :)

It is about a decade older than me too. :)

"They are relatively indestructible"

Over 800 dishwasher cycles later and the keyboard still functions as if it were brand-new. All I need to do is replace the PS/2 cord which has worn out at the strain relief.

How often do you put it in the dishwasher? That sounds ... very ambitious.

I will clean my keyboard in the dishwasher every time after I've descaled/cleaned the dishwasher and run a rinse cycle to clear everything else out, so maybe every other month. But this keyboard came from my elementary school, where they'd clean them weekly, because we all know how nasty kids can be. The vast majority of these cleaning cycles came from that school.

Reading your comment, I thought either "nobody is going to believe this guy" or "people are going to think he's nuts". Actually, I thought it sooner than that, because I almost shared a story about how I used to clean up my Northgate Omnikey and decided not to because I didn't want to be judged. :) And yet, here you are, with an equally insane, similar but much better approach.

My method for cleaning my Omnikey was to fill the kitchen sink with water and clean it like one cleans a dish. After a quick towel-dry, I'd toss it in the oven for 12-or-so hours at the lowest temperature (I think about 150-200 degrees American). I did this at least 10 times during the decade and a half that I used this board (and it was sold in perfect, working condition).

I'm sure I did some damage, somewhere. There's got to be parts in that keyboard that corrode, but it always came out "like new". I haven't owned a keyboard like it since and I expect the one I use day-to-day wouldn't survive a strong gust of wind. I'm not completely, nuts, though. The first time I performed this all-day, insane, cleaning routine was after I had lost all hope of resurrecting my keyboard due to an unfortunate encounter with a full glass of Mountain Dew.

At no point did I ever consider putting it in the dish washer. That would have saved me hours!

I've put model M keycaps and the top shell (no decals there) in the dishwasher. Keycaps came out great. The shell warped slightly from the heat but it was not enough to ruin the keyboard.

I’ve cleaned key caps with dishsoap in a plastic container and snug lid. A psyllium husk container worked really well. Could go nuts with agitation then leave them on a towel to dry. This was for a white mac keyboard though so I had to clean the body with qtips and paper towels. its kind of funny how odd cleaning a keyboard can feel. They’re not designed for it, but should be!

Dishwashers are common on smaller PCB-fab lines. Especially around Milpitas/San Jose. Helps if the board isn’t yet assembled.

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised[0], we used to clean our sneakers in the dishwasher.

And about a decade ago I had a crab dinner served at a friend's house. The guy knew how to cook -- easily the best crab legs I've had (helped by the fact that he knew where to get good product). After we finished the meal, he explained that he cooked them in the dishwasher. I think part of me was grossed out, but it lasted only a few seconds ... they were extraordinary.

[0] I am, but I probably shouldn't be.

Sent my Apple Pro keyboard through my dishwasher last week! Hadn’t been cleaned in probably 8 years so in addition to looking almost brand new, it now types significantly better.

When I worked for a CS department long ago, I took all the Sun Type 4 keyboards home in batches of 6 to run through my dishwasher.

I would never do it to a board unless I was really sure it was completely unpowered when disconnected, and waited days for it to dry.

There are lots of other caveats depending on the exact keyboard and exact dishwasher model.

I wouldn't dream of using my current dishwasher. The heating element cannot be turned off and it outright melts some less expensive (barely dishwasher safe) plastic-ware.

Probably good for cooking crab legs, but would likely warp the plastic on a typical keyboard.

Is this the capacitive type or the membrane type? My understanding is that liquids kill the membrane-type model Ms very quickly, which is why they sprouted drainage holes when IBM switched from the capacitive buckling springs to the membrane buckling springs.

(Liquid does not permanently kill the membrane, it's just that liquid gets stuck between the two membranes and can't get out. You can disassemble everything, dry it, and get it working again. Probably. I haven't tried it.)

I have spilled on my Topre keyboards before and there is no fix but to take everything apart and dry the individual pieces. The keyboards are quite well made so can take many cycles of this careful cleaning. To me, that's the best you can hope for; water is not good for keyboards. Though you can probably use Hall effect keyboards under water, if the driving electronics are conformally coated.

This is an original M from before Unicomp days, no drainage holes, so capacitive.

Model M’s all use a membrane and a plastic barrel frame. https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Enhanced_Keyboard

The capacitive keyboard was the Model F. Instead of the plastic barrel frame, it uses separate plastic barrels held between two metal sheets, and the little conductive plastic flippers trigger capacitive pads on a PCB. https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F

There are pictures of the insides of a Model F XT keyboard here, http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-pc-model-f-keyboard-type-1-vs-...

Here are pictures of someone modding a 122-key Model F https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11102

This source here claims that the model M switches are capacitive - https://pcper.com/2014/12/mechanical-keyboard-switches-expla...

“This source here” is wrong (as was pointed out in the comments below in 2014). It is just misquoting Wikipedia, which it links to: “In a Model M, the electrical contact is a membrane sheet similar to that of a modern dome switch keyboard. On the older Model F design, a capacitive contact was used instead.”

Go ahead and take a Model M apart. I guarantee you’ll find a membrane sheet.

While it's true that Unicomp have purchased all the rights and equipment to make Model M keyboards, the quality doesn't seem to a candle to the original. I managed to break two in the span of two years. At which point I gave up on them and simply built my own. This could just have been catastrophically bad luck. Or like Linus says in the video, maybe it has something to do with their version being based on the newer, cheaper Lexmark version and not the IBM original.

Model F was a very interesting keyboard. I was rather fond of the 24 function keys on mine. And I now regret not having taken mine with me when I moved out at age 18.

I've had pretty good luck with them.

The model M got progressively "cheaper" throughout its lifetime. Mostly, metal was replaced with plastic. The keyswitches and keycaps are still top quality.

What Unicomp makes today is a mid-90s version of the model M. It's not the best ever made, but it's still pretty good. However, there are other keyboards around that are also pretty good.

Same robustness issues with my unicomp. The alt and spacebar keys don't register if not pressed a certain way (wonky)... all in about a year of use.

I still have a few model m's, but I got tired of not having a "windows" key, so I gave it a shot and can't recommend them.

I have a Unicomp, and my roommate spilled water on it once, which caused a bunch of the keys to not register and required a rebuild (which cost almost as much as a new keyboard).

Like every piece of anecdata, it varies. I have a unicomp with PS/2 adapter from ... at least a decade ago; before they even made one with "Windows" keys. Maybe longer. It works as good today as it did then.

What I've heard is that Unicomp owns the actual original molds and such, and keeps using them, even though they're deteriorating. So I guess it makes sense that older Unicomp hardware is better. (I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it's what I've heard.)

I use both (model M at home, Unicomp at work) and while I've not had any failures, it's clear that the Unicomp is made of cheaper materials. One example is the case itself - the Model M's case is made of thick ABS, while the Unicomp is made of thin polystyrene. As a result, the two keyboards feel different - there's a a resonance from keypresses on the Unicomp that's almost entirely dampened on the M.

Unicomps are covered in the video, including the backstory.

Have seen clickykeyboards.com before, seems like a great place to get a refurbished model M. They seem to take great care in making sure everything is in good working order.

Considered picking one up when I got into mechanical keyboards last year, but I went with a WASD with Cherry MX ‘Clear’ switches. Really happy with it!

The Unicomp keyboards are nowhere near as nice as the model ms.

unicomp keyboards are terrible quality. FYI before you purchase.

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