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> And the little I do speak is designed to appeal, as much as possible, to my audience.

"How to Win Friends and Influence People" really helped me understand where I was running into problems when interacting with people. It was written mainly for those who are in sales and need to learn how to persuade, but I've found it overall helpful in my career (not sales). It's one of the three books I would recommend for those who either manage people or are customer-facing (the others being "Nonviolent Communication" and "Carrots and Sticks Don't Work").

That said, I don't really observe the book's dogma in my personal life. To an extent, it has basic advice that's good no matter what. On the other hand, carefully speaking to make someone like you and to persuade them can be awfully inauthentic. I've learned to be careful about being rude or pedantic, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a good argument. I like it when I disagree with people. I like to dig down into it with them to uncover the truth. I like to share the truth that I know with others, and I really like it when someone helps me discover a truth I didn't know before, changing the way I see things.

Unfortunately that means that, while I try to avoid it (without sacrificing authenticity), I will be perceived as unlikable to some. This tends to be people who hate confrontation, those who are maybe a bit insecure about their beliefs, and those who tend toward valuing what the group thinks opposed to what the individual thinks.

> I like it when I disagree with people. I like to dig down into it with them to uncover the truth. I like to share the truth that I know with others, and I really like it when someone helps me discover a truth I didn't know before, changing the way I see things.

I like this too.

But I've found that it's basically a disaster in real life. Very few people are educated, and even those who are have enough sacred goats that real serious conversations about difficult topics are near impossible.

I find that, instead, consuming the best books and videos is far more rewarding. You can expose yourself to the best version of ideas with less effort than trying to squeeze it out of people you meet.

I think it's important in communication to understand the people you're meeting in your life. The people around us makes up the society we live in, and understanding how we disagree with them helps us see what we want to change and also where we're wrong. Whereas just trying to absorb one author's idea of how the world works ignores those pieces of society and knowledge that the author lacks.

To me it's more rewarding to know that I may not agree with everything everyone says all the time, but at least we can find our common ground and share our disagreements with each other to reach an understanding.

"real serious conversations about difficult topics are near impossible."

Basic conversations about basic things are almost impossible.

Sciency/hackery software devs are a unique breed, we like to talk, debate, consider. To everyone else it's just 'disagreeable'.

Making people like and respect you is sadly, the only way to get most people to agree with you.

The most important 'tactic' when trying to get people to agree with you is ... to be tall, slightly good looking, reasonably well kept, and for the other person to believe you are listening to them, and that you agree with them maybe about 'some issue' but more importantly about some deeply held value they have. Then you are 'right' about whatever it is you are supposed to be talking about.

In other words, it's not about facts, but about relationships, which is why so much of sales is about that, and not product/price.

For some reason humans are really, really bad at objectivity and I think we information nerds are only just a little bit better than the rest.

> It was written mainly for those who are in sales and need to learn how to persuade

One of my big revelations was ‘we are /all/ in sales’.

My dad gave me very similar advice growing up, as I love for things to be factually correct. To me, it didn't bother me if someone corrected me. However, most people don't appreciate it and it isn't worth upsetting them 90% of the time. This is something I didn't understand.

Another thing he told me was not to be a know it all. One example would be when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better.

He gave me lots of small little interaction tips that helped me come across as a better person even though none of them were nefarious in nature.

> Another thing he told me was not to be a know it all. One example would be when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better.

Taking this a step further, if you know the topic well you can instead say something like "I know, it's very cool isn't it? Did you also know that <related factoid>".

Delivery is important of course, with the "I know" part needing to be energetic and supportive, but I've found this approach to be an effective way to build rapport and it has lead to some really interesting discussions.

Spot on! I was terrible at making it seem like I wasn't just trying to one-up them or seem smarter when I was little. Delivery is so important.

I now drop the "I know" and go with something like "so cool that you brought that up - I was just reading about it last week!"

> when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better.

That's really great. I'll have to pick that up.

Sounds like your dad was/is a pretty smart guy.

He is. Today is actually his birthday, funnily enough :)

I would get super annoyed at his doing that when I was a kid and felt that he was hard on me for no reason, but man do I really appreciate that now. I still have lots to learn from that man.

> when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that

I know someone like this. Their reply is always, "I'm not stupid". Clearly they were offended when I told them something they already knew, even though my intentions were to educate rather than offend. But their reply actually always created two offended people because to me, it's obvious I had no ill intentions and I'm left resenting their reply.

So now I just don't tell them anything unless they ask and I'm highly specific in my answer to their question. That ensures I'm only providing information they have indicated they don't know. If they want to know more, they'll ask more.

For my part, there was almost certainly an element of my being a know-it-all which is what got this person so riled up in the first place. Regardless; this simple change has helped me a lot and has improved my relationship with other people in addition to this one person.

This is why the whole “man-splaining” thing is weird to me. As a male, I’ve always appreciated people telling me things or explaining things to me, because they at least cared enough to take the time.

Similarly I once watched a woman at work struggle opening a jar. She congratulated me for not offering to do it for her. When in fact I felt like a jerk in that moment for watching her struggle. There’s an odd difference of perspective here I don’t fully understand.

>when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool"

Sure, "I know that" isn't great either, but hopefully there's some way of dealing with that situation (which happens constantly in everyday conversation) without lying like that. Seems like manipulating the other person to me, not treating them as a person just like you. Imagine the roles swapped. Would you want the other person to pretend and be condescending, or to be honest? Saying "Wow that's cool" when you don't at all mean it, an honest, real conversation can never get started.

Maybe I didn’t phrase it well but the idea was to not phrase it in a condescending way like “I already knew that” or “I’m not stupid” and instead be like “right, isn’t that awesome”. Those are probably better phrases and was the idea that my dad was trying to teach me

> The point of an argument is to convince the other person of something. If what you're doing is not working, then do something else.

That's not the point of most arguments. Most arguments have an audience, and often that audience is also involved in making choices.

If neither your opponent nor your audience is swayed, yeah, you could just be entrenching everyone in an oppositional attitude.

That being said, discussions are typically better than arguments when that is an option.

Following this advice can single handedly avoid so many negative things in all of our lives. The older I get I keep coming back to this lesson. For humanity to keep progressing we can't keep treating people as computers and expect them to accept some statement we believe in. We're fluid sacks of chemicals, the farthest thing from an objective computer. Effective communication must begin with that.

Also somewhat related:

“Never miss a good chance to shut up.” - Will Rogers

I understand that this is effective, but I don’t understand people’s motivations for doing this unless it is explicitly required to do their job (management, sales). I would rather be thought of by some people (almost always people who I don’t like anyway) as an asshole than become a sycophant. Although I agree that argument for its own sake is not worth it

Strange. Plenty of my coworkers are neither assholes nor sycophants. I'll pick them over the other two any day.

I mean, even arguing for arguments sake can be a great way to sharpen your views.

Yeah, it also helps to frequently remind yourself of the times you thought you were entirely correct, only to later discover you were completely wrong. It happens to everyone, many times throughout our lives. Though we tend to forget them.

Another thing that I've found helpful is to adopt a frame of mind where you don't want to be wrong for a moment longer than necessary. Therefore open to being incorrect, and would rather be corrected than continue being wrong. When your model has been updated, view it as a positive.

Steelman instead of strawman. Seek the strongest opposition to your idea.

It can be hard to do, but worth trying as much as possible.

I agree with everything you said, and love the boxing reference at the end.

Anecdote... one of the proudest moments in my life was when I finally did outbox the heavy bag. I put a hole in the side where I my left hooks to the body hit. It probably took me 10 years to make that hole, and even though I needed to buy a new bag. I can't make myself throw away the old one.

> one of the proudest moments in my life was when I finally did outbox the heavy bag. I put a hole in the side where I my left hooks to the body hit. It probably took me 10 years to make that hole, and even though I needed to buy a new bag. I can't make myself throw away the old one.

Not going to lie: that's pretty badass!

To add onto this, learning how to use communicative tools better is huge. I have seriously enhanced my productivity and understanding of my work by learning how to manage my inbox, write and respond to tickets, and share information via effective Confluence posts.