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Comment by grecy | Hacker News Reader

> all of which can strengthen the urge to defer existential questions about meaning, purpose, community, and identity until some unspecified future date

I've quit my Software Engineering job twice now to spend years of my life doing whatever I want. First time I spent two years driving from Alaska to Argentina [1] and second time I just spent three years driving right around Africa [2]. Both times I had no job, no boss, no timeline and I did whatever I wanted every single day. Hiking, camping, taking photos, cooking food, learning a new language, writing when I wanted to, etc. etc. I had ultimate freedom, living off my savings.

Without a doubt, the "freedom" life is much harder for me than the "desk job" life for exactly the reasons you listed above. After about six months for me I started to really, really think about the meaning of my life, what direction I want my life to take and a ton of other things that simply don't enter my mind when my life is on autopilot (i.e. going to work every day).

Going to work everyday is easy, because it means you don't have to decide the direction of your own life if you don't want to.

[1] http://theroadchoseme.com/expedition-overview

[2] http://theroadchoseme.com/africa-expedition-overview. & http://instagram.com/theroadchoseme

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For a brief period of time I thought the “quit job to travel” was the dream life, but I soon realized, at least for me, that traveling for the sake of travel was just another way of running away of my problems.

It also made me realize that most people are happiest when they feel like they’re contributing to society in some way, and traveling non-stop feels like you’re side stepping your role in society rather than making any contributions to it.

Though I do think there’s a ton of value in mini-retirements or sabbaticals of maybe a few months to a year, and travel during those times can play a huge role in helping break up your routine and provide some perspective.

Why does traveling non-stop make you feel like you're side-stepping your role in society?

One of the things i like best about traveling is that i have the time and mental energy to engage with the people around me. I eat at restaurants, i go to bars, i listen and share stories, i'll contribute to the local economy and perhaps put a smile on someone's face.

When i am working i suppose you could say i am contributing to society, in the sense that i am helping to build some software that performs a function our customers appreciate. But most of our customers don't live in my community. And even if they did, i'm not really employed to serve those customers, i'm employed to increase growth so that the company will make more money for its investors. Trickle-down theory says that's still a net contribution to society, but it feels very abstract to me.

Meanwhile, when i work i am too exhausted to spend any of the money i earn doing those things that i would when i travel - i don't spend money at local businesses, i don't talk to other people in the community, i just go home and sleep and go back to work again. It's the life most of us are forced into to survive, but i wouldn't really call it contributing to society, or at least not in as direct a way that people do when traveling.

Solo travel is an inherently selfish pursuit. You are just consuming, and not creating anything of value for society.

They're likely helping to create positive experiences and memories for other people during their travels. Some of my best memories in life are thanks to random solo travelers I've met during various trips.

I met a solo traveler waiting for the airport bus in Thailand, and the next week we did a road trip across the country and back together. I met a solo traveler in Hungary on the train that needed accommodation, so they stayed in my living room and we spent a few days traveling. I met a solo traveler in Italy, and the following week we decided to hitchhike to various coastal cities. Their "selfish pursuit" brought me all sorts of value.

What a pessimistic, consumeristic and consumable view of travel. Are stories of travels not value? Are people who's lives you touched not made greater for a friendship, even if for a short time? I'm not saying theres not a way to be a total consumer and a net negative on society as a traveler, but I'd rather society be filled with thoughtful people who've met and made relationships with people of other than someone who slaves away all day at a draft board creating the next phone with 5 more megapixels.

I’m not particularly inspired by people who run away from their problems. I’ve met many people while traveling myself who were perpetually traveling and the vast majority were aimless and uninspired. The worst are the ones that resort to actual begging (yes, it happens) to continuously fund their travel.

It just isn’t an enlightened pursuit. If you want to escape life as a corporate drone or whatever running away isn’t the answer.

> If you want to escape life as a corporate drone or whatever running away isn’t the answer.

'Escape' and 'running away' are roughly synonymous.

What other escapes do you prefer?

The key difference is responsibility.

You can leave an unfulfilling job for another form of responsibility in life that is more fulfilling.

Endless travel is really just life without responsibility. Having zero responsibility actually does not make most people happy in the long term. It’s an unnatural human state, particularly for grown men, and most will wake up eventually (perhaps once it’s too late) and realize there’s nothing enlightening about a life lived that way.

These are the traditional conservative values and beliefs, yes.

A lot of us think it’s time to design new values and beliefs.

It’s not conservative so much as innately human. A society made of individuals who feel no shared responsibility to contribute to society is literal anarchy

As you point out, someone begging to fund travel certainly fits the description of non-contributor to society.

But many (most?) self-fund their ongoing travel, whether through odd jobs while traveling, savings from a previous stable employment, or "digital nomad" work on the road[1]. In that sense, they're just shifting a portion of their contributions from time period B to time period A, in the same way that spending during retirement works. I don't see how this can be described as "feel[ing] no shared responsibility to contribute to society" any more than someone who spreads their contributions more evenly over time: it's just describing the use of money as a store of value.

When my wife and I couldn't afford to travel we hosted couchsurfers, including solo ones, from around the world and very much enjoyed their conversation (and cooking if we were lucky!)

It's not any more or less selfish than the existence of 90+% of people just going through the motions to get through the day. The "value" most people create for society is a byproduct of that person needing an income. If they could get the same income without doing any work, most would choose that.

Travel has made me a better version. My worldview was so small before. After it, I've learned we are more of a global village than separate nations.

It kind of sounds like what you like best about travel is having free time. In other words it's not about how great travel is, but about how much you dislike like your (all-consuming) job.

I don't really hate my job. I think i would rather be a software developer than many other things. I do tend to work around 45 hours, but i don't take my work home with me. Well, not physically. It's more the emotional toll that it takes - having to be extroverted and "on" all through the week uses up all of my spoons. By the weekend i have nothing left.

I definitely would be happier if i had more free time. But my feeling is that i would also be a more productive member of society. At the very least i know i would engage more in the community. I am currently on day 5 of 12 days annual leave, and i am only just getting to the point where i feel i have the energy to venture out of my apartment. Surely this isn't the most efficient way to "contribute to society"?

It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. I can offer one thought. A coworker of mine once told me that biking to & from work helped him decompress & be emotionally present for his kids when he got home, while driving just brought all the stress right home with him. I've come to agree. Bussing with a mile of walking down a nice lane has also had similar results.

All very impressive -- hope this guy is as happy as his scrupulously cultivated brand requires and celebrates.

But I wonder if this represents a cautionary tale -- someone who took their non-"desk job" and assiduously commoditized their adventures. The 110% workaholism never stopped.

Click here to buy the book, follow the instagram, subscribe to the YouTube.

Or maybe this is what can happen if you don't indulge your wanderlust in your early 20s. The scariest, hardest and most rewarding thing always turns out to be connecting with the people around you. Instead, "Rabbit, Run"...

Your comment reminded me of Ralph Waldo Emerson’s thoughts - how wanderlust can keep us from leading meaningful lives. Worth a read: https://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2019/04/wanderlust-keeps-...

We probably need an antidote to the current instagram driven travel as consumption lifestyles, but I think they protest a little too much. Most people who go full nomad seem to realize quite well on their own after a year or two that no matter how much they learn, being always rootless and disconnected is not a great life and go back to build a life in one place. Most people aren’t privileged enough to even get this far but for the ones who want to why stop them? Some of my most memorable times have been travelling/living abroad but I realize indefinite travel would not be great.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm currently into my third year of traveling and third new country. I'm getting pretty exhausted of starting again (new engineering job, new environment and new friends) and I'm starting to yearn for roots. It does take it's toll on you as now nowhere feels like home.

Then you settle down and the yearn to travel again takes over. It never really settles until you have kids.. and then I wonder if it’s only temporary (really want to travel now but the little one won’t remember it, so I’m rooted to his hometown)

FWIW I don't think it dies down. RVs are a huge thing amongst older folks for a reason.

They don't have to remember it. They won't remember anything before about 5 anyway. The time with them is (in a way) a very private experience only you & your partner will remember. You're making memories- for yourself.

Or, to put it in different terms, they fly free until they turn 2. Get at it.

Lol oh I did that, but it was to visit family. I had companion pass so we only needed to purchase one ticket and just went to different cities. Now we are beyond that free ticket age, and we value the experience as much as our time together that we want to wait until they do remember. So our first REAL family vacation is still three years away but I’ve already got our Paris adventure planned out!

One thing about traveling in general while children are young is that they become accustomed to it. Getting on a plane this weekend was a nothingburger for us, because it was like our 18th time going into the clouds. Same with 3 hour road trips, it becomes another facet of life

Speaking for myself only, the yearning does not go away. It gets overridden by the realization that trying to fulfill that wanderlust was never going to make me happy. For me, travel was just a way of trying to find a place to belong, and once I realized that was my goal, I also realized that going from place to place was the exact opposite of what I should be doing.

That said, the longing has not gone away. I just know it to be a siren song.

This is how i see travel bloggers too. Constantly updating the world about your whereabouts, framing every experience as something to be shared, it sounds exhausting to me - just like work!

I don't begrudge them, though. If this person ever needs to go back to work "in the real world", they've kept a brand going that proves they have a work ethic. And if they don't, then presumably at least they've found a way to earn enough cash to maintain the lifestyle they want.

One of the things i wrestle with as i get older is meaning. I don't have a partner and don't want a house or kids. I don't have the killer instinct needed to become a corporate bigwig or an entrepreneur. I keep puttering along as a senior dev, quitting when i have enough cash for a sabbatical, then going back to work somewhere else when the savings run out. I'll never have the means to retire and live my perfect life. I'll just die somewhere, poor and aged out of the profession i never really wanted to do anyway. I suppose that's how most humans go out, but it feels a bit pointless.

I envy people who are very driven and have a clear goal in their lives - whether that goal is to be a rockstar desk jockey, to travel blog the world, or to connect with the people around them. It seems life would be much easier that way. I just kinda drift about, mostly having mediocre or boring days, occasionally having good days, and one day i'll die. It's far from a terrible life, but i can't help but wonder if goal-driven types feel that their lives are more rewarding.

Why not make it your goal to find a goal?

Due to hedonic adaptation, the journey of working toward something is usually more rewarding than reaching any particular destination, especially if you're getting lots of feedback along the way.

Also, I've spoken with literally thousands of entrepreneurs, and most don't have what I'd describe as "killer instinct." Many of them gained a purpose through their business, rather than starting their businesses to satisfy some pre-existing purpose. It's a bit like how people find a new mission in life once they have a child.

What we think impacts what we do, but perhaps less obvious is the fact that what we do impacts how we think. Sometimes the first step is to throw yourself into a situation and then allow the motivation to come.

Finally, I'd say I'm an abnormally driven and goal-oriented person, and even I often think about my inevitable death and the purpose of it all. I think it's just part of being human and thoughtful.

I've come to the conclusion that living a good life is largely about being proactive. We like to think that given enough money and freedom we'll all do things that make us happy, but instead we tend to stagnate. It's easy for anyone to settle into simply letting the days pass: whether you're single or in a relationship, an employee or a founder, traveling or stationary, it doesn't matter. You can get into a routine of simply doing the least effortful thing.

For most of us, being proactive about living your life in a fulfilling way requires effort, the same way work does.

This is great career advice, but by the end of your comment it felt like it went in a circle that leads back to the status quo. If humans really need to work to find fulfilment, then why bother trying to find fulfilment outside of work?

I don't hate my job. It's okay. I'm pretty good at it. The pay is fine. If this is as good as it gets - the joy of seeing someone you're mentoring "get it", the pleasure of getting a complex refactoring done, the accomplishment of shipping a cool feature - then i'm already there.

What i find sad is that it's not viable to spend time on idle things that i enjoy more than that workplace success. For me, my happiest times have been when i was doing nothing productive at all. Watching shows. Reading books. Dancing till dawn. Learning a new language. Cooking something nice. Talking to strangers. Wandering around aimlessly. Playing a computer game. Sitting on a bus to anywhere. Getting drunk apropos of nothing. Those are things i love to do because there is no pressure involved. What makes them satisfying is precisely that they are journeys without a destination. If there's a goal, if there's purpose, then it's exactly like work, so what's the point?

I am not sure that given enough money and freedom everyone would stagnate. That may be true of some, but not of others. Having discussed this with retirees it seems like it is a very individual thing. Some people don't do well with retirement - they get antsy and want to keep occupied, so they join social groups and take part in community events. Others gladly enjoy the chance to live an idle lifestyle. It's unfortunate that those who prefer the latter lifestyle have to work 45 years for it, and (depending on circumstance) may even never get the opportunity to enjoy that time.

I can't speak to what we need to find fulfillment. I haven't met many people who've said, "I'm fulfilled." And is fulfillment even the right goal? Once you reach it, is it not something you must constantly strive to maintain, or at least avoid losing?

We have a significant divide between working and living that I personally hope to erase, or at least minimize, in my own life. I've had some success this year, mostly through being more human and less down-to-business in my interactions with coworkers and colleagues. For example, previously I'd always prioritize speed and efficiency at work, which spelled disaster for experiencing real happiness at work. But recently I've begun to do things like having long, meandering 1-on-1 meetings that feel indistinguishable from casual chats with old friends about life, love, and whatever's interesting. Because why not?

Does having a purpose make something exactly like work? Well, if work is something that can be truly enjoyable, then the question is somewhat pointless. So let's imagine it can't. Then I'd posit that enjoyment depends less on having or not having a purpose, and more on what that purpose is. Trying to rush to hit some metric, or prioritizing speed and efficiency above human connection, or always having standards for success or failure, or doing things alone instead of a group… these approaches likely sap a lot of happiness out of spontaneous endeavors. But I don't think there's anything wrong with a purpose such as, "I'd like to have a lot of fun and make memories with my family over the holiday," and using that to guide you to say yes to some activities that you'd ordinarily ditch in favor of the easier choice to be stagnant and do nothing.

I also agree with you that not everyone would stagnate given time and money, by the way. I didn't mean to imply that. Only that many of us do stagnate instead of being as proactive as we should/could be to get the happiness or the lifestyle that we desire.

> We have a significant divide between working and living that I personally hope to erase, or at least minimize, in my own life

This, in a nutshell, is why I plan to never retire. "Retirement" for me is finding a business that holds my attention enough to want to do it for the rest of my life. Right now it has to fit into the interstitial bits of time between "day job" and "family time" and "sleep."

BTW: I love your podcast!

> This is how i see travel bloggers too. Constantly updating the world about your whereabouts, framing every experience as something to be shared, it sounds exhausting to me - just like work!

A few years back, I took a ~yearlong backpacking trip which gave me a lot of exposure to travel bloggers, both personally and when doing research for my travels. The impression I got from many of them was that they didn't consider the blogging work, but rather a natural outgrowth of the journaling practice that many people do privately anyway, for the ostensible personal benefits. Once they had already gone through the work of framing and articulating their experiences, polishing it and sharing it with others wasn't a lot of marginal work (and added an extra layer of fun).

I'm sure there are people who treat it like a daily grind, but my impression is that, for most travel bloggers, it grows pretty naturally out of something they were doing anyway.

Wow, didn't expect to see you on HN. A friend of mine and I have been watching your Youtube vids for a while now. They're wonderful (and I'm also a bit jealous of the J30 camper on your Rubicon).

I myself took this past summer off to travel the western US. I started to have similar thoughts. It was very hard to go back to work after returning. Not because I didn't want to work (I did), but because of what you said, I realized it was so easy to fall into patterns and let your career direct everything.

I realized when I was traveling every day that I was the one directing, and it wasn't always easy. I had to deal with new things every day, sometimes great, sometimes difficult, but it really pushed me both mentally and physically. It was the best thing I ever did for myself.

One positive about returning to work though is I care a lot less about my career path. It allows me to be more open and honest at work. I don't fear not getting a promotion or losing my job. I also don't care as much about being "right". That helps my stress level a lot. But it also helps that I'm planning my next adventure as well (6 months in western Canada).

What is your takeaway? What did you mine from really thinking about the meaning and direction you want to take with your life?

*clarification: I mean it earnestly, as I have not done anything that you have.

My takeaway is that I must make decisions and take action if I am to live the life I want, in a manner that makes me happy. Nobody else will do that for me, and if I live my life on autopilot I will be extraordinarily disappointed when I look back over my life and see that I never took life by the horns and charted my own course.

It's on me, and that is equal measures exciting and (some days) terrifying.

I lost my Mum to cancer earlier this year, and she was exactly 30 years older than me. If I live to the same age as her I only have 30 summers left for all the hiking and camping and exploring I want to do. I only have 30 winters left for all the snowboarding and winter fun I want to have. Most important of all I only have 30 years left to spend time with family, friends, community, food, laughs and good times.

I have a lot that I want to cram into those 30 years, and I'm going to be my own pilot to make damn sure it happens.

In my humble opinion, as it applies to me and me alone:

Earning money is the worst of all false gods to chase. We in the western world have lost our path, and it's making us miserable. I met thousands of people in Africa that are happier and more joyous than virtually everyone I've ever met in Canada, Australia or the US.

Money is not the path the happiness, and I don't ever want to fall into that. I only ever want to earn enough money for food and shelter, and every minute otherwise I don't want to be at work making someone else rich. I want to spend those remaining 30 years enjoying myself and bringing happiness to those in my life, not earning money thinking it will somehow get me there in an abstract way.

But, what do I know? I'm only 37 after all. I have a lot to learn.

>Earning money is the worst of all false gods to chase.

Moloch is pretty bad, but Gnon is worse. uwu

Well you can make money alleviating other people's suffering. I mean the work you do should have some utility in someone else's life.

If you only make enough to help yourself then you have nothing left over to help others.

Making a good amount of money and then giving it away to causes that can meaningful help others is a highly underrated pursuit.

Aimlessly traveling is not happiness. I predict you’ll learn that lesson soon.

Clear thinking and good priorities.

I found it difficult until recently to make decisions about career and money, mostly because of the way status and security are attached to them.

Giving that up has been really hard, but as I’ve learned to live with less security, my happiness and freedom have increased to the point where I’m happier than I’ve been since I was a kid.

> "I don't want to be at work making someone else rich"

There's no point in thinking this way and it just creates more stress. Think of work as something you do for yourself. There's no shame in earning a living to then pursue your passions. Don't worry about or compare yourself to others.

Yup. Making a living for yourself only in such in a way that you purposely don't make a living for anyone else is limiting and self-defeating. And if everyone did that, society would collapse.

It's not like the economy is zero-sum anyway.

> Earning money is the worst of all false gods to chase. We in the western world have lost our path, and it's making us miserable. I met thousands of people in Africa that are happier and more joyous than virtually everyone I've ever met in Canada, Australia or the US.

I don’t disagree with your point.

IMO earning money isn’t the problem. The key is the balance between earning enough money to not struggle to do the things I enjoy, but not letting work and responsibility become the only thing in my life, blocking me from the things I enjoy.

But I will concede that western society has placed an emphasis on consumerism and we evidently all need more stuff. Consumerism is killing our planet as well as making us spend more and save less.

I’m similar in age to you, and despite my privilege, life can seem pretty pointless without time to self-direct, enjoy our interests and not be consumed by our jobs without a break.

Also, losing people close to you can change your perspective on what you spend your time doing. If I only have 20 summers left, I wouldn’t want to spend them working. But I still have to eat and pay rent for that amount of time, and working is the way I pay for it.

> Money is not the path the happiness, and I don't ever want to fall into that

Oof, that is a very uncomfortable statement for me to ponder upon. For the last couple of years, I have been focused on saving, saving, saving. Your comment makes me think about whether that's wise. Thanks for sharing that bit of wisdom.

Saving makes sense if the security blanket it gives, gives you peace of mind you need. Beyond that, unless you are saving for something, it might not be the best thing to focus too much on.

Absolutely agree! I'm 11 years younger than you and I realized this myself recently after having 2 unfulfilling jobs out of college. I'm absolutely tired of making other people rich d ppl ing something I don't enjoy.

I really just need enough to survive, and more free to time to actually pursue my passions and dreams. I think that's the true way to live.

My coworkers are obsessed with working as hard as they can, putting it all into their 401k so they can retire in 30 years. What an awful way to think about life.

"I'm only a slave for 40 years then I can do what I want".

No, do what you want now!

‘I don't want to be at work making someone else rich. I want to spend those remaining 30 years enjoying myself and bringing happiness to those in my life’

How do you expect to live out those 30 years without working consistently? Do you have means of enough passive income ?

You can still do it even if you don’t really want to. That’s pretty much the definition of work regardless.

Once you’ve saved a certain threshold of money, say $1M, it becomes relatively easy to make your money work for you at a high level so that you can live off dividends.

Until it dont

Limit your drawdown to 4% (3% during recessions) and you’ll have money forever

Harder than you think. It means you need consistent 6% returns (2% inflation, 4% return).

There's nothing out there that I know that gives you a consistent 6% return and the stock market is a fickle mistress. 2007 to 2009, VTI dropped over 50%. That 1% reduction in drawdown isn't going to be of much help much when your $1M turned into $500K, you'll need a job.

But you stopped working for a while, so now your resume makes you less desirable than the competition and exactly when you need more income (at the bottom of the recession) the job market is at its worst. Likely it took you a few years to get that $1M and age discrimination is rampant in IT, further decreasing your odds of finding that job.

I think realistically, you need a significantly lower drawdown, more likely in the order of 2% or less to weather economic downturns. Without subsidized healthcare, that's going to be very hard to do with $1M, but I think it's doable with $2M.

It’s up 30% this year and we’ve been in a 10 year bull market.

Index and real estate funds pay actual dividends, which you didn’t mention, outside of just relying on rising share prices.

There are some slightly more advanced ways to generate income like selling options premiums that can generate income when prices are relatively flat.

You wouldn’t have your retirement 100% in equities though, you would be way more risk adverse. So in 2007-2009 you may have only took a 20% hit only to see that rebound by 120% within 2 years. In fact if you were paying attention in that time you likely would have loaded up on equities and rebounded a lot further. But you can see this is an edge case. Remove those years from the last 30 and you’ll see the 4% drawdown would have covered you perfectly through that time.

I think you are right $1m is becoming shallow these days, but that doesnt change the significance of my statement

By living a simpler life and not consuming for the sake of it. Earning ~$25k a year will easily pay for the life I want to life. When I drove around Africa and to Argentina I only spent around $17k a year while on the road.

How did you get across the Darien Gap?

Covered in the links: http://theroadchoseme.com/shipping-across-the-darien-gap-pt-...

It isn’t crystal clear, but it looks like they went in on someone with a shipping container.

I shipped the Jeep in a shipping container from Panama to Colombia. Full details on how you can do it too, and price breakdown are here: http://theroadchoseme.com/shipping-across-the-darien-gap-pt-...

If you don't mind my asking, what is your Myers-Briggs if you know it (Ex: INTJ)? I would guess it takes a rare personality type to leave behind the security of career to do what you have done.

Actually I have no idea, I have not done of those tests in maybe 15 years, and I can't remember the result.

I just view it the other way around. I don't think I'm leaving behind security now, I think I'm choosing to live my life now rather than wait for the possibility of living it later.

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