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Comment by cperciva | Hacker News Reader

In my CL template, I end up talking about how, in high school, I woke up at 5:00 am to practice for contest math tests

Take that out. It doesn't matter what sort of job you're applying for -- the words "high school" should never appear in the resume or cover letter of anyone who has a college degree.

As for the rest: Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for. If I was applying for a management position at a bank (not that I can imagine why I'd ever do that, but hypothetically...) I'd still turn up for an interview wearing a t-shirt and jeans. If my apparel wasn't up to standard, that would be an indication that the job I was applying for wasn't actually a job I wanted -- and being not offered the job would simply save me the trouble of quitting after a few weeks.

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"Dress like the job you want to have, not like the job you're applying for."

Very nice. Put into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I won't be pulling out the suit for future interviews.

For interviews, the best advice I've heard is to remember that you're evaluating them as much as they are you. If they demand/care that you dress a certain way, perhaps it's a good sign you don't want to work there (unless you're into that kind of thing).

I have read posts that hint at a bit of hypocrisy in startups, though: "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life." Bear that in mind if you really LOVE wearing suits. :P

I'd rather hire someone who is comfortable in any situation (mechanics clothes or business suit) than a rigid smartass who won't change they way he or she dresses no matter what...

I would always dress "professionally" because I do not know what the guy on the other side is going to think. I don't want the start of the interview to be the end of it. When I talk to the interviewer I can know if that person is someone I can be working with, I always ask what the dress code is like and I assure you it makes no difference.

One company was 100% casual (don't wear a miniskirt and you are fine). The company was the biggest POS to work for.

Another company is business casual (occasionally they don't mind me wearing a t-shirt and jeans) and it is is just a pleasure to work at this one.

Edit: I actually like wearing business casual, very comfortable cloths.

To me at least, a suit is a tool to be used where it will give me leverage I would not otherwise have. It's a social hack to get access to both places and people. Personally I prefer not to work in one, but for important meetings or for working directly with (formal, older) customers then it's worth putting on the monkey suit.

Forgive me, but I find it humorous that you reference a suit as a "monkey" costume, particularly in comparison to the art direction and name of Bathing Ape and the like.

I'm 26 and I find the trendy designer-esque throwback to the 80's an eye-sore that belongs in a circus, and a contradiction to the shouting cry for individuality when hipsters congregate.

> "We wear t-shirts because clothes don't matter, but if you wear a suit you're unfit for startup hacker life."

That puts into words my vaguely-formed concept of why I defiantly wear dress pants and expensive shirts (+ suit and tie for interviews) even when working at a tech startup with 20-somethings in (carefully chosen) worn jeans and t-shirts.

If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?

> If clothes don't matter, why am I being judged because I value aesthetics, not excluding the clothes I wear?

Because they do matter. The function of any level or style of dress at an interview is to mark you as part of the Right Group. This holds true even when the interviewers don't realize that they're unconsciously doing it.

Overdressing for an interview at some companies can put you in the Wrong Group just as surely as underdressing will at others.

The last time I wore a tie at work was my job interview.

You should always dress nicer for the interview than you expect to for the job. It has nothing to do with impressing the interviewer. I wore a tie to my interview because it made me feel important, which made me feel more confident, which made me come across as a more compelling candidate.

Use whatever tools you have to manipulate yourself into being the person (at least temporarily) who easily gets the job you want.

The job I would like to have required me sitting around in my underwear and possibly a shirt. Joking aside, I don't agree with the dress like the job you want at all. It's important to convy professionalism. When you go to a wedding do you wear shorts and a tshirt because its comfortable? No, you want to look the part. A job is no different. I think its better to be over dressed then under dressed.

I work for a super casual company now. I wear a t-shirt and jeans to work every day. They actually asked me on my interview why I was wearing a suit. As soon as I spoke, they could tell I wasnt a stuck up stiff "suit". I showed some personality, smiled and laughed a bit. On the other hand I have seen people come through here in hoodies who get the job. But I would personally never wear anything less than a suit to an interview.

Agreed on taking out high school. I'm 28 and recently began taking out all references to college as well a couple years ago (my resume lists my degrees).

I agree dress like the job you want to have, but I disagree with the t-shirt bit. I've worked at 4 different companies, and always show up wearing professional, clean clothes to my interview (suit and tie the first time, since then just button down shirts and dress pants or khakis).

The t-shirt and jeans can wait until you've proven yourself for a few months. I go to work now in shorts and a t-shirt, so this isn't some sour grapes rant. Though I dress casual for work, given a choice between two identical, impeccably groomed, candidates one who came professionally dressed and one who came in shorts and a t-shirt (and that being the only difference), I would be likely to hire the one who came like he was here to interview.

Of course, I would hire someone casually dressed who knows their stuff over an idiot who happens to be wearing a suit, but I don't think there's any reason to put yourself at a disadvantage. Don't overdress, don't underdress - wear clothes appropriate for the interview.

The t-shirt and jeans can wait until you've proven yourself for a few months.

There's no contradiction between what I said and what you're saying -- we just happen to want different jobs. I don't want a job which has expectations for clothing beyond "yes please".

It's up to the original poster to decide what sort of job he wants and dress appropriately for that -- odds are, the job he wants is one which neither of us would want.

I don't want employees that spend all that time fretting over what they wear. I want employees that would look at me funny if I asked them to dress nice. I'd want to see a funny, bewildered, slightly pained look on their face that said "I'm one of the best people at what I do, I'm doing important work, I could work anywhere, each second I waste on this is something that doesn't go into designing the future, and you want me to worry about wearing what?"

Umm, yeah. And if a candidate had spelling mistakes on his resume, would you think "well, I'm hiring him to code, not to write documentation"? Or would you in fact not even bother to interview him at all?

Well a resume conveys useful information, which is important. Dress does not. It's a signal to noise ratio thing.

Incidentally, bad spelling in an otherwise smart person is a good sign of creativity, because it's correlated with personality types that correlate with creative thinking (when intelligence is evidenced at all).

I am not interested in someone who writes "creative" code that someone else has to debug.

That's not what I mean. You are deliberately taking the worst possible interpretation of what I wrote. No one wants typos in code. But, a programmer who's written english is bad, but who is highly intelligent will probably not evidence the same typos in programming as in typing written english.

It's the same sort of thing as dyslexia being different at a neurological level in chinese then in english. English dyslexics who learn chinese aren't dyslexic in chinese. Likewise, people who are messy in their english might be extremely good at code. People sure like to hang onto conventional wisdom even when there is plenty of scientific evidence to suggest that they are wrong.

OK, every word processor these days can check your spelling for you. You don't even need to do anything; it will underline words it doesn't know by magic. Given that big a shove in the right direction PLUS the manual proof-reading that ought to be done, it is incomprehensible that typos get through. It can only be carelessness. This isn't an IRC conversation; it's a professional document.

Clumsy use of English from someone for whom it isn't their native language is a completely different matter, I don't care about that.

I agree with the first paragraph and disagree with the last sentence.

For me, it's less about the typing or language skills and more about proving that you can produce a complete work-product. A typo-laden resume indicates to me that you failed to have at least one native speaker of the language review it.

If you have a known weak area (English is not your most fluent language and is also required for the job), I would expect a thorough individual to seek help.

Just like I would expect a rock-star hacker to call tech support or post on open-source forums for help if they have a particularly difficult bug that they aren't making headway with.

Do you have a source for the typo thing? That would be very useful information.

I emailed you info, we're getting too far off topic here.

I don't think I got an email. Subject line?

References to high school after any time in college is suspect; at the adult stage you should be referencing adult accomplishments and activities.

My company is completely casual, in fact my boss dresses more casually than I do, but I still expect every interview candidate suited and booted - it's no different from expecting no spelling mistakes on their CVs.

As a counter-anecdote, I did a (full-day) software engineering interview in 1998 wearing an old Magic The Gathering t-shirt and jean shorts. I'm not sure what I was thinking except the HR person told me they were pretty casual there-- this was for a really cool development tool company.

Anyway, I went on to be hired and then promoted through dev lead, dev manager, and architect roles at that company.

So, I'm not of the mind that it's something to worry too much about if you're a decent hacker. My more recent interview sessions, I've pretty much always been wearing a suit or at least business casual, but I wouldn't say it's a hard-and-fast rule, especially for a startup and junior position. Still, YMMV.

If a company makes a huge deal about you not being well-dressed then they probably aren't going to be the most flexible company to work for. I know I don't tend to judge candidates specifically by the way they dress, but those who look comfortable in nice clothes do come across more professional.

What industry are you in? If you're in banking, sure, but if you're in software I hope you clearly communicate this to interviewees.

More importantly we're in London, England - not the West Coast :-)

There are a lot of ex-City people here, which may be where the expectation comes from, but even so...

> More importantly we're in London, England - not the West Coast :-)

That explains everything.

I had a friend who actually got turned down for a management position for wearing a suit to an interview (they thought he was "too formal" for the job). PayPal, I believe.

I rock the Silicon Valley Casual for interviews-- jeans and an untucked button-down shirt for consulting gigs (and employee-jobs that I already know I want).

If it's a really creamy consulting gig for a large company, I might even make it slacks, semi-dress shoes, and untucked button down. Regrettably I don't have the complexion for khakis, since blue button-down, brown semi-dress shoes and khaki slacks [with cell phone on a belt clip] appears to be the uniform of choice around here large boring companies that think they're casual.

For startup interviews, I will wear a funny t-shirt, often involving pirates.

You will note that I never overdress beyond these levels (for an interview), as the casual dress is part of my filter against stupid, boring companies.

Fact: You lost a ton of excellent employees that way.

There are certainly counterexamples to the "excise high school references". Consider for example one of the NYC magnet high schools such as Bronx Science (or Stuyvesant), which on paper at least have a track record of producing 1 physics Nobel Laureate and 1 Turing award winner each per decade (on average). In such a school, a characterization of where one was on the continuum of creative intelligence can be a pretty strong statement.

(granted most High Schools aren't that magical on paper, so the parent post has a valid point in principle)

I considered adding "unless you went to Stuyvesant, Upper Canada College, or Eton" -- but I'm not convinced that this is useful if you're applying for a high tech job. If you're trying to get into politics, saying "look at how politically well-connected I am" is certainly useful; but if I saw a CV which mentioned attending Eton, my immediate reaction would be to judge the rest of it more harshly -- because I'd be thinking "you had all those advantages, but this is all you've managed to do so far?"

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