Hacker News Reader

Here's what most surprised me recently, which compounds all your points.

Middle of Nowhere, France, 11 AM. My Uber arrives, a cool Model 3, "huh, great!" I thought, "I'm gonna pry this guy's brain for info on EV's."

Sure thing the driver was a talker and over the course of the next 20 minutes proceeded to tell me all the good and bad, in his opinion — it was his 3rd or 4th EV.

Tesla is "out of this world" — his words. "And you know why? Because they have the best free charging network, period, others are not even comparable". Remember, we're in the middle of nowhere in a rural town. He points to me a couple gas stations on the map nearby: "I can charge there, super fast, no problem. But with any other brand, the German, the French, the Japanese? It's a mess. Nothing before 30-40 miles at least, can only charge during work hours, that sort of... problems. And Tesla's (sorta) free and has much more range to top it all."

Consider that we're talking infrastructure, Tesla being better than the French and German brands in France of all countries, about 200 km from the German border!

So, there's that. The headstart and pragmatism of Tesla, even far away from homeland, USA is big and consequential — it'll take years for others to catch up, and they're not heading this way as they all rely on different standards (NIH syndrome) and bodies like the EU haven't catched up on regulation yet (like they did e.g. for phone chargers normalized to micro-USB, now USB-C).

I know it's anecdotal, but for a professional driver it was pretty clear that Tesla is just about unchallenged in EV.

This sounds nice for Tesla, but it sounds utterly insane from a greater perspective that EVs can't charge at any electric charging station.

How stupid does it sound if I said I needed to find a Ford gas station to fill up my car?

Agreed, it's insane. I don't know about most countries, but in France, some brands (Japanese iirc?) would have you go to their branded car dealership to charge. How crazy does that sound? (I couldn't believe it when he told me that, sorry I can't recall which brand it was)

The whole thing sounded mind-boggling, really. Anecdotally, my partner is seeking to buy a new car for a 1h commute so I wanted to get her a small EV — but the charging options make it totally impossible (short of getting a Tesla but that's way above our budget for this 2nd, smaller car). Consider that we live in France 30 km away from Luxembourg, a major financial/tech/political hub in the EU. What gives? I honestly don't get it.

If Tesla ever makes a sub-20K €/$ small EV suited for hourly commutes, they can just take my money.

> some brands (Japanese iirc?) would have you go to their branded car dealership to charge

That's probably because these Japanese brands use CHAdeMO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO), while everyone else uses Combo 2.

CHAdeMO is only for fast charging, which manufacturers say you should only do occasionally. (It's hard on the battery pack.) The Nissan Leaf comes with a CHAdeMO and (at least in NA) and a J1772 plug for routine slow charging.

Does this mean that if you don’t drive a Tesla, you have to make a conscious decision whether you’ll charge fast or slowly, or you’ll damage your battery pack over tine?

Fast chargers cost more to use, so you only use them when you have to. https://www.blinkcharging.com/ev-charging-fee

> Anecdotally, my partner is seeking to buy a new car for a 1h commute so I wanted to get her a small EV — but the charging options make it totally impossible (short of getting a Tesla but that's way above our budget for this 2nd, smaller car).

Can't you get a charger installed where you live and charge overnight?

If you have the space and don't rent, then yes.

I wish. We live in a rented flat downtown a mid-size (100K pop) city. It falls down to city management, putting chargers on every street corner or just about... Suffice it to say it's not happening right now. :(

Gas stations do have different octane ratings and diesel. Every station just happens to have at least 4 options these days.

> Gas stations do have different octane ratings and diesel.

And none are manufacturer exclusive and virtually every gasoline powered vehicle made runs just fine on regular unleaded.

Yeah, pretty much all cars don't need it except for sports cars. Although it's pretty important if the car specifies that it needs high octane gas. I know one person trashed their engine cause they thought it was a gimmick... whoops!

I think newer cars have knock sensors, which just means you're engine will run rich and burn way more gas than you need to in order to protect the engine but I wouldn't risk it. If you can afford a sports car you should be able to afford the premium gas to go along with it.

I have a car that "requires 91 or above". It runs fiiiine on the "regular" octane (87). Obviously, you don't want to do it for an extended period, and if you do use it, it's not a great idea to put your foot down.

I have run into very rural stations with only 87 and a bottle of octane booster behind the counter.

There are charging standards and you can charge a tesla at the generic chargers, it is just slow. Similar to being able to put 87 octane in a sports car but then it won't perform as well (and there is a bit of risk as well should some sensors not be working properly)

Gas stations, I think, are required to post prices on signs, be regularly inspected to make sure they are providing the quality and amount of product they are supposed to, and don't require you to click through an EULA. I don't have the impression that this is the way chargers work.

And you can refuel much faster. I can fill my entire tank in less than 2 minutes, to get the same mileage with a car I'd be looking at an hour (if not longer). I spend less than 2 minutes a week getting gas and as a renter I can't install charging at home, and work doesn't have any charging options, meaning I'd be sitting around an 30-60 minutes a week at a charging station twiddling my thumbs. Also the cheapest Tesla is more than I gross annually. You just can't beat that time savings, I've got better things to do than driving way out of my way to find a charging location, hope a fast charging is available, park and sit there for ten minutes or more while right now in my 15 minute commute I pass 8 gas stations, that can all provide me fuel, that are all much faster.

EVs are never going to get widespread adoption until old apartments start getting torn down and replaced with new-construction apartments that have charging at every spot as a quick Google query shows something like 39 million people in the United States live in apartments with one article claiming:

>Apartment rentals will make up 27 percent of all new housing units built in 2018 and 2019. [1]

And the simple fact is, apartment owners are cheap. They generally use the cheapest appliances, the cheapest carpet, the cheapest fixtures... you think they're going to start shelling out even 1-2k$ per parking spot? Even if they added a surcharge of a few cents a kWh it would probably take them 3-5 years to recover their cost because people will charge elsewhere from time to time, and not everyone will drive an EV so some will sit unused for potentially years.

[1] https://www.nreionline.com/multifamily/apartment-rentals-now...

To put in the effective Tesla chargers, rather than the slow trickle ones, in many cases building owners would need to upgrade their panels, and likely need to put in higher amperage services. That's not cheap, and unless the premium you get for having a charger is on the order of a couple hundred bucks a month, or there are massive subsidies, it is not very attractive.

They can charge, just slowly. I think the driver was saying that he can change free on faster chargers, maybe?

The charger network team is definitely forward thinking regarding demand forecasting and build out. Friend of mine used to work there and the team works very hard to stay ahead of the curve, knowing that this infrastructure is vital to the user experience

> and bodies like the EU haven't catched up on regulation yet (like they did e.g. for phone chargers normalized to micro-USB, now USB-C).

AFAIK they have already standardized on the IEC 62196 Type 2 connector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector) for AC charging and the Combo 2 connector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System) for fast DC charging.

That's why Ford announced that at least in the US they're buying into the Tesla charging network[0].

https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-fordpass-charging-netwo...

minor clarification: That is not what this article says. Ford's network does not include Tesla's superchargers.

> That's why Ford announced that at least in the US they're buying into the Tesla charging network[0].

Ford announced no such thing and your summary is false. They are investing in a rival network (consisting of multiple independent providers) that they claim is more extensive than Tesla's.

French dude made a small review of all the tiny flaws on the Model 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuYRwf93Umo

clickbaity title but it was interesting to see the practical side of things rather than the skyrocket moonshot company changing the world.

> the market has finally caught up to the fact that Tesla is years ahead of their competitors.

Incorrect. The stock value is being pushed up by:

1. Unexpected quarterly profits in October;

2. Tesla planning to open a new factory in China and securing a 1.4 Billion dollar loan to do so;

3. Apparent strong interest in the Cybertruck and the impending announcement of the Model Y;

4. USA and China are easing the trade war, which is pushing the whole stock market up (there have been "records" left and right in the past few days).

But the big one is number 2. Tesla moving into China means that they can tap into the humongous Chinese market.

Well, TSLA is a very sentiment-heavy stock, so it's hard or impossible to say what exactly caused this recent run.

For example, they've been guiding Q3 and Q4 profitablity since ~Q2 or earlier. They started building the Shanghai factory in Q1, the Model Y was announced in March, the Truck's been talked up since forever, etc.

What's really changed is that the Taycan is no longer a mystery, but a real car with a real price tag and real range. The ID.3 is almost-real and struggling with software issues. The E-Tron, new Leaf, new Bolt, etc have real sales figures. When these were unknowns, you could be reasonably skeptical of Tesla's claims, but that's increasingly untenable.

Or, as the great Silicon Valley philosothoughtleader Russ Hanneman said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzAdXyPYKQo

Everything you just typed can be explained by the phrase "Tesla is years ahead of their competitors", so not sure why you're so solid on that "Incorrect" statement.

>impending announcement of the Model Y

The Model Y was announced in mid-March, to generally negative reviews/market reaction.

Stock is up mostly because of short-covering. This is what a textbook case of a short-squeeze looks like.

Tesla already sells cars in the Chinese market, especially since there is really no other EV luxury alternative and Beijing ICE plate lottery allocations are lower than the EV ones. The factory means Model3s no longer need to be imported, so should be cheaper.

5. Tesla is one of the most manipulated large cap stocks on Wall Street. You're observing one of the many rounds of a pump and dump and 6 months from now it'll be at just above 200 again as something "bad" is discovered by the "free" press just in time for the big players to cash out again. Anyone who buys at 420 is a sucker.

I’ve had my Model 3 just over a week. It’s great. I love it. But I can’t wait to get an EV in a few years from a mature manufacturer. I hope that mature manufacturer will be Tesla.

Right now, though, after sales care is pretty much non-existant, I have rattles that I didn’t have in a car with over 100k on the clock, the handover was chaotic and rushed, the interior is cheap.

Even so, I have no regrets. And I’ll recommend the car because it is such a game changer. It drives brilliantly and, of course, it’s great to know that I’m not pumping out diesel fumes. But if there was a EV BMW 3 series with the same range and performance I don’t see how the Model 3 could compete.

I have a Mazda 6. I would say that Mazda is a mature manufacturer. Yet the Mazda, which I purchased brand new from the factory, sight unseen (big mistake), shook at high speeds (I found out later due to a warped brake rotor), sounded like the windows were cracked at all times and you couldn’t ever roll them all the way up (for which Mazda issues a TSB years later), pulled to the right because it came off the truck out of alignment, and made a crunch vibration in the pedal every time I pushed the brakes. The dealer refused to even acknowledge any of these problems. I had no recourse.

On the other hand, Tesla lets you return the car within a week if you don’t like it.

Lemon law?

Saw the first Model 3 I've seen in the wild today (north of England though I see a few S's on a regular basis), pretty pretty car in the flesh, the white looked lovely though like all white cars in winter I bet it's a bastard to keep clean.

I get what you mean about the car of the future, it glided past silently (couldn't hear it through my motorcycle helmet) like something from the future.

Would be the car I buy if I ever went 4 wheels.

Tesla puts 20-30% of their gross profits into R&D. https://q10k.com/financials/TSLA

Ford/GM don't even have an R&D row on their income statements.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I would expect a larger portion of profits going to R&D from companies with a smaller portfolio of products in an industry where you're expected to have a large one.

What part of the Porsche Taycan has been disappointing when compared to Tesla?

My only complaint is the price, but it's a Porsche so what can I do?

Second.

The Taycan release looks very promising.

Porsche seems poised to eat the majority of profits from this space with the Taycan.

There's not a lot of money to be made selling baseline Model 3s. And Toyota & Honda et al will soon be coming for the entry level space.

Tesla seems like they'll be around for the long haul. But it doesn't seem like they're going to be highly profitable with a small market share like Porsche or Mercedes. It also doesn't seem like they're going to be the next Toyota.

But my crystal ball isn't working. I have no idea what will happen.

It's pretty likely that the incumbents will get competitive electric cars on the market eventually. The real question is, how much of the overall vehicle market will Tesla have before that happens? Because the longer it takes, the longer Tesla has to convert profits from existing models into developing new models and reducing manufacturing costs and the more likely it is that they become the electric Toyota.

But it'd be a lot harder for Tesla to grow that big if the incumbents were to provide meaningful electric competition in the near term.

EPA range of only 201 miles despite having a 93 kWh battery.

I would say that's less a disappointing bit and more just a factor of if it fits a potential buyer's needs.

Even with ICE cars, people have always compared multiple cars' EPA/mileage, drivability, etc. It's hardly a new issue.

Yet the Tesla does 375 miles with a 100 kWh battery.

Do the math.

Like I said, for decades different cars have had different EPA. I'm not sure why in this case it should be some special factor.

If it was higher performance or something maybe? But an inferior performing car with worse mileage doesn't seem great.

How is it "an inferior performing car" aside from lower mileage? Any sources? Genuinely curious.

Pricewise i don't think you can compare it to the standard tesla (s an d m), it's in a different league.

actual range vs what they're stating since it's less aerodynamic than tesla

> competitors ... all been somewhat disappointing.

Often that's bad news, though. If your competitors cannot sell their product, that's a sign of a small/poor market.