Dass bounced around between gurus that exploited women and men before returning to the US to do much the same. That, the drugs, and the lies over the years just makes whatever he says unpalatable.
but as someone who lives in a culture (India) overrun by "gurus" of all shapes and forms, spouting Roscharchian mumbo jumbo packaged as "ancient wisdom", I largely agree with and sympathize with your viewpoint.
[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=guru+arrested&oq=guru+arrest...
Why go to gurus to listen to ideas or ideology, that you can read in books and practice at your home?
Why go to college when you can learn anything from books or by working on it (as profession or hobby)?
Why go to tax planner when you can file taxes on your own?
In World, where information is asymmetric, (and we lack time to acquire information or expertise) we need help. They are our references/guides, with assumption and hope of good faith (No fiduciary agreement)
This is classic Principal Agent Problem.
Does Principal has flaws? Yes. Do they always work in good faith? No.
Simply put, What to do with information/guidance one receive is their prerogative and life/lifestyle of these people is theirs.
Should we appreciate ideas more than the people behind it? Yes. Will we ever do it? No.
Why do people go to Tarot card readers? It is almost certainly possible to study as much about Western esotericism and ritualistic practices as it is to study about ancient Indian religions. You have the same asymmetry of knowledge (Tarot card reader took the time to acquire expertise which you don't have time to). You have the same person/idea division (maybe your Tarot card reader is a drunkard and a philanderer but he can sure read those cards).
I think we have some weird prejudice when it comes to Indian spirituality. For some reason we bend over backwards to give it the benefit of the doubt that we deny to other traditions. You want to compare Indian Gurus to college professors and tax planners. The truth is they are closer to psychics and spirit mediums.
Does Principal has flaws? Yes. Do they always work in good faith? No.
Simply put, What to do with information/guidance one receive is their prerogative and life/lifestyle of these people is theirs.
Should we appreciate ideas more than the people behind it? Yes. Will we ever do it? No.
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One does not have to ”follow” these gurus, be it Indian or otherwise. But I also believe, one should have open mind to listen to all ideas. Eventually, What one doss with these ideas is one’s choice. It has nothing to do with bending over backwards.
Maybe you missed my argument then? Why not keep an open mind about Tarot, astrology and the healing power of crystals? At least in the West, these ideas are ridiculed outright and the ideas behind them mocked by the association. Yet the "love is the answer" surface of most Guru philosophy has almost the exact same philosophical centre as the esoteric roots of those practices. For some reason while most feel no compulsion to defend western esotericism they do insist people have an open mind about Indian spiritual ideas.
To be clear - I have no care at all what someone wants to study. My point is that there is a drastic difference in how we treat these ideas within popular culture. Spiritual teachers that peddle Indian ideas are treated significantly differently than spiritual teachers that peddle western ideas. As far as I am aware there is no basis for this. With your attempt to compare Indian spiritual teachers to accountants and professors you just provided an opportunity to highlight this difference. I know of no one who would allow such a comparison for a Tarot card reader.
Also, just because something is science does not make people believe it (for the most part of our civilization earth was flat and for many global warning is hoax) Similarly, just because something is NOT science does not make people NOT believe it too.(the whole world of placebo is not science that has shown to work for many)
cheers,
Like I said in my previous comment, One does not have to ”follow” these gurus, be it Indian or otherwise. But I also believe, one should have open mind to listen to all ideas. Eventually, What one doss with these ideas is one’s choice.
The book "Saints and Psychopaths" talks about a case where Ram Dass was following an explotative guru in the US in the late 70s. I thought it was interesting that he was still doing that then, and also that the story isn't so well known.
But what do you mean by "the lies over the years"? He never struck me as a liar.
A week later you find out that the hospital was actually run by people that had little formal training as doctors. Some took a few classes on Coursera or first aid training, but none really devoted themselves to the profession beyond a cursory level. But they seemed so professional you think, but then again without medical knowledge how would you know? On top of that you find they've been using their position to influence medical opinions behind the hospital, gain fame, and earn large sums of money from desperate people looking to be healed. Sure, they inadvertently cure some people, and others just got better due to time.
To me this is like Ram Dass and so many other gurus. Their lies are layered under the façade they present and under the ideas they explain, most often poorly and without context. They may inadvertently help people, but just as much they are preying on those desperate for answers and help. They are unqualified scam artists who know just enough to be dangerous. The lie is embodied in who they purport to be and in the help they try to provide.
These spiritual gurus are like a distinct type of art. Not everyone is partial to it but certain segments of the population are more likely to find something in it that moves them. You may call these people fools but it's not much different then holders of one political viewpoint viewing the holders of the opposing one as fools. These are just perspectives, there are no absolute right and wrongs here (leaving aside some extremes), because the human experience cannot be narrowed down to science.
I don't see them as fools, but as charismatic and intelligent people who have found a way to garner adoration, fame and other benefits by exploiting psychologically weak and vulnerable people. Whether they do so knowingly or not varies from guru to guru. I think many of them do start off with good intentions but quickly find themselves buying into the mystique others have built up around them. They are often as weak as their devotees. Dass falls into this camp in my mind. Is it wrong, no, but I feel it's important to point out.
Yes you are wrong about Ram Dass. He was no Osho or Jim Jones.
Ram Dass aka Dr Richard Alpert was a Harvard professor of Psychology
Philosophies & religions (hell, ideas in general) have always been iterative in this way. They all have a genealogy that goes back in time further than is commonly assumed.
You just slung a boatload of cheap mud.
Sure, he was intelligent, had a PhD, and was a likeable guy. He also spent much of his early years doing drugs (LSD experiments) and bouncing around ashrams in India with less than reputable gurus.
The guy was quoted as saying Jerry Garcia was a Bodhisattva, if that says anything about his state of mind.
He was, like most gurus, exceedingly arrogant at times. 'It is useful here to remember that your guru, even though you may not have met him in his manifest form knows everything about you, everything.' Who says stuff like that?
Dass was no more put together than anyone else, especially considering how he boucned around with ideas, even becoming a devout evangelical Christian at one point. The guy was put on a pedestal by people and he made the best of it.
There is tons of stuff that weighs against the guy, but I'm on mobile and out and don't remember much. I don't consider him to be wholly malicious in his actions like many purported 'gurus,' but he is still a scam artist for letting others follow him while reaping the benefits.
Sounds like you are missing that part. I've attended Ram Dass lecture, he just blew us all away. He was that far out. He got it. He really did. Life, Death and what comes next. Just got it. Like no one else. He just did.
HIGHLY suggest watch this one. Dying To Know - Ram Dass & Timothy Leary - Documentary