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It's not the kids responsibility to make sure their grown adult parents have a social life. That's even more depressing.

I totally understand where people are coming from with that though -- the parents gave life and raised the kids, so shouldn't the kids repay them? The only thing is, the kids didn't (as far as we know) choose to be brought into life and have the experiences with the family they had. Maybe they were terrible or at best for some, neutral. Then, why would they feel the need to "pay back" for that?

Finally, would you rather someone hang out with you because they feel guilty obligation to do so versus happy freeness to do so? I wouldn't want someone feeling guilted into spending time with me because they "owe me one." If it was from a place of "happy freeness," then sure.

> It's not the kids responsibility to make sure their grown adult parents have a social life. That's even more depressing.

Jesus, we're not talking about setting the parents up on dates, we're talking about a single Christmas dinner with family.

Honestly I would feel more comfortable managing my mothers online dating accounts until the day she dies(not that she has any that I know of anyway) than attending yet another christmas dinner. And I don't have any problems with seeing my family, it's just christmas is such an awkward time all around - to me at least.

Exactly -- so why is it a big deal if someone chooses not to participate? Lots of cultural and learned expectations around holidays. That's ok though, we all can choose for ourselves what's right I think.

I feel like, with the man, it really depends. There’s some cases where the elderly parents may have caused so much trauma to a now grown child that they don’t want to have to interact with them again, which is unfortunately common with my friend group. Sometimes it’s just .. better that way.

It was actually in Germany, not in Poland, although it was also quite heavily discussed in Poland.

Here is the ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4COtJ_5-dPM

Edit: When I think about it, the most well known ad for Christmas in Poland is the one below - it's related to the fact that there are a huge number of young Poles that emigrated to the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU5Rnd-HM6A

Ugh those scenes of him dressed up eating dinner alone are heartbreaking.

There are terrible families out there. Just because it’s family doesn’t mean you have to suffer permanently. Some people have kids for the sake of having them, not caring about their well-being at all. In other words, being a parent doesn’t make you a good parent or person.

I get your point though. Family should be first (IMHO) and even major disagreements shouldn’t be met with ghosting. Sometimes it’s just unbearable, and it’s the only choice unfortunately.

Well, that's my point. I see people hung on my apparent dismissal of "bad blood", but that wasn't the core of what I meant. I just can't imagine how people can end up in a situation where they'd be actively getting rid of their elders over Christmas[0] by faking or causing illness to them. There's a difference between refusing to visit or care about someone you don't like, and getting them admitted into a hospital to get rid of them for a few days.

--

[0] - And May break - a bunch of Polish holidays close together; reportedly the second busiest hospital time, for the same reason.

Excuse me?

I grew up with my dad physically beating the family (mom and kids), breaking our stuff, my mother excusing his behavior and telling us (kids) we were they problem, both of my parents berating me daily that I'm a worthless human being, everything I did was wrong, and that they hated me and wish I was never born.

Why would I voluntarily subject myself to this? Because they are my parents? Well I didn't want any of this; I didn't ask to be born.

Eh, my wife's mom abused my wife horribly and denies it today. She's now a lonely old (and still awful) woman, but that's not our problem.

I believe that this whole Christmas thing is supposed to be a celebration of the Son of God that came to save us from our sins, right? The same One that taught us about forgiveness?

I am sorry for sounding preachy. I just wish I could find a better way to see if you and your wife can make the best out of this amazing opportunity you have every year to heal and make amends with those that should be close to you.

This isn't just preachy. It is ignorant and condescending.

I'm very glad you have never experienced enough abuse in your life to the point that you had to cut someone out of your life.

Maybe you should be listening to victims instead of jabbering at them about your religion.

Please don't respond to a bad comment with a worse one. That way we only get a downward spiral.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

First: Forgiveness takes two people. One has to genuinely ask for forgiveness and admit they've done wrong. That's why Jesus wants you to ask him for forgiveness.

Second: Yes, you're being preachy about something you know nothing about and making a lot of assumptions.

If my wife's mom was in a bad mood, she would order her to close the windows. My wife (starting at age 5 or earlier) would start weeping as she closed the windows, knowing that if she didn't it would be worse. She'd then get a beating, for nothing. Her mom would call her worthless, ugly and fat constantly. The times of affection can be counted with the fingers on one hand. It was a lifetime of emotional and physical abuse that she only escaped by running away.

And yet, partly because of guilting from people like you, my wife tried her damnedest to forgive her mom and get her mom to love her. Every time it would end with my mom trying to use her, and putting my wife down. It took years of therapy to get to the point now when she can admit to herself that she's not a bad girl, that she didn't deserve the abuse. And that it's best, to put it mildly, for them to not speak again.

No assumptions were made, and I don't want to be trading horror stories here... So let me just say that while I have not personally experienced it, I also had people very close to me that suffered a lot on the hands of their parents.

But one thing I can share is they have a common point that for them "forgiving" was about realizing that their parents failed them and not the reverse and that, yes, they probably will never be able to come around their wrongdoings - and yet they are still someone that deserves compassion. It has nothing to do with "guilt-tripping" or getting someone else that was abusive to "love you".

I admit though that the medium is not the best to have this kind of conversations, so there is no way to talk about any of this without seeming confrontational. Sorry about that and all the best to you and your wife.

You're also conflating "forgiveness" with "letting that person interact with you again". What does forgiveness even mean to you? My wife harbors no hate towards her mom, surprisingly. She wants her to find happiness. Just not with her. And certainly not at Christmas.

Forgiveness for me would be a matter of being able to show love and compassion to someone even after they had done us wrong.

You can choose to forgive someone because you realize that who they are is simply a product of their genetics and upbringing, without choosing to spend time interacting with them. What good reason could there be for involving someone in your life if all they have given or are likely to give you is abuse?

Just because you've forgiven someone for being a shit human doesn't mean you need to welcome them back into your life with open arms. Forgiveness just means to let go of any resentment, it doesn't mean you can't learn from your lessons and change who you choose to interact with

My wife's mom is very similar, from the physical abuse to the insults. Our church friends (those who know) generally get it, but we've had interactions where my wife has been criticized for not having an active relationship with her.

There comes a point at which you can forgive, you can let go, but you can't invite them into your life, both for your family's safety (literally) and per their own wishes. They've shown many times that they don't want a relationship. They want to use you, control you, and abuse you until you try to kill yourself.

It's hard to grasp for someone who hasn't been intimately connected with that type of personality, but there are some parents who genuinely don't love their children and shouldn't be near them.

We owe nothing to those who drain us or make our lives worse. Sometimes you just have to cut people out so you can move on with life.

(trying not to sound preachy)

Sometimes cutting somebody out needs an element of forgiveness, otherwise you can't _really_ move on.

These types of things always depend on context, though.

> These types of things always depend on context

Of course. I’d never do it lightly and would try to work it out first. But at the end of the day, if the other person isn’t willing to work with you or they otherwise sap your energy then maybe it’s best to move on. Life’s too short for that.

Aren't you supposed to repent before being forgiven? Or can I continue being an asshole and you'd still forgive me for being one?

> make the best out of this amazing opportunity you have every year to heal and make amends with those that should be close to you

If you'd ever had to deal with a truly toxic person you'd know that this is terrible advice. Some people cannot be saved and the only way to save yourself is to strictly control (or even entirely sever) your contact with them.

This goes double for family members, and quadruple for parents.

An internet comment is never going to establish the deep level of connection necessary for a message like that, so it's better not to go there here. It will only come across as an attack.

It would very likely come off as an attack in person as well.

Yes. I said it requires a deep connection, but if you have the conditions for that—such as non-judgment and presence and a willingness to relate to the person exactly as they are—then you are going to have a different kind of conversation anyhow.

> No matter the bad blood that can be present in a family, I just can't imagine how one can treat one's own parents this way.

Respectfully, you don’t know shit about the families of other people.

It is possible for a person to have subjected their children to life-altering trauma, and many years later be playing the sweet and lonely old person. There’s enough manipulative guilt already without strangers on the internet adding to it, or minimising the emotional wounds of abuse as “bad blood”.