Comment by Yoric | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Yoric | Hacker News Reader

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I don't know about this specific case, but I can give you examples in other companies. Some of them were things I lived through "thanks" to a former boss of mine who's still lurking on HN so hello, former boss.

1. Move someone's desk to (sometimes literally, sometimes figuratively) a closet: a place where they don't see anyone.

2. Set someone to watch them. Make sure that they can't speak to anyone during the day. Make sure that they are always at their desk. If they're not, for any reason, make sure to blame them.

3. Repeat them three times per day that they are doing a piss-poor job.

4. But also make sure that they have nothing to do. Make-believe job at best, but it must be clear to them that it's make-believe job. Once they have produced their deliverables, ignore these entirely.

5. Set them up to fail. Give them impossible deadlines. Change the goalposts. Give them a title and responsibilities that looks like they have entire teams working for them but never fill the teams.

6. Force you to write daily reports of activities when everybody else is on weekly/monthly/quarterly/... basis.

7. But also repeat to them that they're not working sufficiently. Make it clear to them that it's their fault.

etc.

Can I ask briefly what kept you spending such a significant portion of your day working for such an employer? Is this is in the US or somewhere else where maybe there is a forced work period? In the US at least your employer generally cannot force you to keep working for them but I know other places in the mideast etc they can.

Finding another job is not easy for many people. I've been looking for work (not in France) for years - even getting an interview is difficult, and I have very poor interview skills (autism spectrum disorder makes it particularly hard to learn how to interview) so I don't get anywhere.

Not everyone is in a market where companies are desperate for warm bodies.

The point is I think that the management want you to quit but cannot (or do not want) to do this themselves. They harass you until you give up.

This was in France.

Well, there were several factors.

1. It took me time to realize that this was going on.

2. My boss basically wanted to get rid of me because I had done my job too well and everybody knew it. I had taken over some of his previous responsibilities and where he had led the company's flagship project pretty close to the grave, I led the team that turned his failure into success. Problem is, he wanted his name to be the one on the top of the poster. By then, getting me to leave was paramount to asking me to abandon my baby. So yeah, it took me some time to come to terms with this.

3. Generally speaking, in France, there's a notion of "job loyalty" which is very different from anything I've seen in UK/US/Canada. I've elaborated more on the topic over there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21856307

4. Benefits are very different if you quit or if you're laid off/fired. If you quit, there were no benefits at all at the time (laws have changed since then, I believe). My boss was clearly trying to fire me without benefits. I did not enjoy this prospect.

5. Also, finding a new job takes more time in France than, say, in the US. It's both an economical thing and a cultural thing – interview periods are longer, for instance.

edit Rephrased point 2.

You might find Yoric's comment above hard to believe but actually it's not uncommon. If you work in enough places over time you will come across this behavior.

There are two kinds of people. Those who achieve success in life by getting better at getting things done (and as a side effect, often having authority over others). Those who succeed by gaining power over others without necessarily getting anything done. In fact often they are incompetent when it comes to getting things done but highly competent at the worst kind of politics.

Usually the only people who can deal with the politicians are those above them. These people thrive where the top is weak. It's not hard to deal with them. The first sign is dishonesty. The way to spot this is to frequently do a deep dive. Go down to the people at the lower level and investigate why things went wrong (they always go wrong under these people)

If not these people will destroy that part of your business and drive out the competent people.

Of course this is why honesty in national politics is also so important. But in this case it is the people who need to drive these types out.

If I was aware of someone wanting to fire me without benefits by forcing me to quit, I'd probably try force them to fire me with those benefits. I'd sit at my desk playing games or watching series or some other non-work activity, ignoring any requests from my manager. Eventually they'll have to fire me, or they keep paying me to do nothing.

Well, if you do this in France, you can get fired for "Faute Grave" ("It's your fault and it's bad"), in which case you get very reduced benefits or even in some cases "Faute Lourde" ("It's your fault and we're probably going to sue you for it"), in which case you get no benefits at all.

In 99% of circumstances, firing people is really not difficult in France (there are a few exceptions such as pregnant women, people who are on a long-term handicap leave or people who have been elected by workers as their spokespersons). Laying them off for economic reasons is a bit more complicated.

> ...or people who have been elected by workers as their spokespersons

would this have been possible in the timeframe you experienced? since he felt the need to isolate you, indicates the boss knew the team respected your leadership, which generally indicates the team would have been willing to vote you as representative / spokesperson.

it might not have become the most pleasant job, but sometimes caesar must accept the crown unwillingly...

I suppose it might have been a strategy but job protection was not my goal.

Thanks @Yoric for speaking out. I suffered from a similar situation early in my career as a developer, and it was far from pleasant.

This happened in a very early stage, self-founded startup in France (was the third person to join). Took me time to realize the situation was really bad and unescapable: I was young and lacking experience.

To employees: don't wait to be fired or to reach your breaking point. You're on the way to serious burnout. There is something out there called the market that is redistributing talents. So get out.

To managers: don’t be that boss.

wow! those aren't tech companies, are they?

The cases I know of (including mine) were mostly in tech companies.

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