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Comment by joelmichael | Hacker News Reader

I am guilty of the "Fuck you" one. The offered terms insulted me so much I no longer wanted to do business with the person. Had I taken this article's advice, I would have stayed calm and moved toward some highly unsatisfying "middle ground" purely to "close the deal". We are faced with innumerable opportunities in our lives, and we need to filter out the best ones; for most negotiations, a successful outcome is not making a deal.

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   The hardest thing in life to learn is which bridge to cross and which to burn.
   - David Russell

Bah.. never burn a bridge, simply don't cross it and find another way across.

  Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge.
  - Don Henley

Man! You're like the MacGyver of bridge-related quotes. It's amazing.

  Kind words bridge hearts, but also diamonds, clubs and spades
  - Jack Handey

What deep thoughts by Mr. Handey...

But what happens when the Magog come pouring across it?

(Just wondering.)

Edit: I don't know if people don't get the reference or think I am merely being flippant. I'm not. I don't like burning bridges either. But sometimes I find it is the only way to put an end to a problem situation where the more I try to be polite and all that, the more neurotic and demanding and blood-sucking they become. If someone here knows how to handle that effectively without "burning the bridge", I would love to hear their take on it.

I don't get the reference. The search engines don't turn up anything relevant either.

Andromeda, the TV show. On some episode, on some planet, they build a bridge to the moon and I think somehow also to the future. When they open it, the Magog from the future come pouring out. The Magog are a race that eat humans and also lay their eggs in them and the eggs feed on the (still living) humans until they hatch out. Not exactly pleasant stuff.

Or at least that's what my mangled brain recalls from watching it a zillion years ago.

It was the first thing that came to mind in response to "never burn a bridge". I am disinclined to burn bridges myself. But I find sometimes that trying like hell to avoid burning the bridge just gets me into huge messes that have me wondering if so much politeness, manners, respectfulness and what not is really a good thing. It has helped me make my peace with incidents in my life where other people torched the bridge. At least it's been put to rest.

Edit: Link: http://andromeda.wikia.com/wiki/Abridging_the_Devils_Divide

Actually, a lot of recent horror and sci-fi stuff is lifted from Islamic mythology (which itself is rebranded Jewish, Kanaanite and Babylonian lore.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog

The TV show "Supernatural" heavily features themes of spirituality and daemons that are lifted from Islamic culture. The recent remake of Clash of the Titans also feature similar themes; the Jin, desert scorpions, Jin riding camels, etc.

I have no idea if that is where the makers of Andromeda got the name. Sometimes there are bizarre coincidences in life. But thank you for sharing.

I can almost guarantee you it is. The Wikipedia page is not as fleshed as it's supposed to be, but I was raised on the fear of Yagog & Magog and we're told the only thing stopping them from coming out and massacring us all, is the great wall of China (well, not exactly, the myth was developed under a flat-world, so they're "at the edge" of Earth. Nowadays the apologists just say it's the GWoC to keep intellectual consistency, but we all know it's not. By their description, they sound like "unlearned savages" outside the Caliphate, Siberia, South East Asia, and Scandinavia; since the rest of the old world was by then very well explored.)

Just because two things sound alike does not mean they have related origins. I am reminded of this incident: http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm

I am not saying you are wrong. I am only saying that I have no idea if the writers of the TV series had any knowledge of such myths and drew upon them -- even unintentionally -- or if someone sat down and played around with sounds until they found something "alien" sounding. I had never heard of what you are talking about until you brought it up and I am fairly well read and have had middle-eastern friends. If I had any awareness of such myths prior to making my earlier post, I am sure I would have made some effort to clearly indicate it was a sci-fi reference in order to avoid confusion. As far as I knew, there was only way to interpret the word "magog".

I imagine quite a lot of Americans have no knowledge of these mythologies, which would be good reason to borrow from them as inspiration for sci-fi: It's adequately foreign and unknown that it is "alien" to the general public here and there is rich material to draw upon if you get stuck, material that is sufficiently unknown that most people won't realize you drew on anything and will think you are just really, really creative. I have heard that Japanese fiction often draws on Christian mythology in a similar manner, which makes for some misunderstanding if it later gets translated to English and marketed to the "western" world.

The Bible is widely read in the US.

Yes, I realize that. Presumably there is some disconnect: I said Christian mythology gets used in Japanese fiction, which causes problems when it comes back here where the bible is widely read. Not because Americans don't read the bible but because they do. If non-Christians in a foreign land, speaking a foreign language borrow on Christian imagery for "fluffy" fictional pieces, and it comes back to a culture where Christianity is widespread, it tends to not go over well. I assume the same is true in any comparable situation.

Really baffled by your reply.

Here is the disambiguation page showing the Bible reference along with Andromeda. Compare them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magog

I think we're just having an academic discussion and citing "prior" sources for the sake of disclosure and intellectual honesty. Hopefully no one is offended by the discovery that their idea of 1st rate sci-fi is rehashed religion, or that their one-true-faith is just pagan lore ;-)

I'm not religious. I'm more familiar with Christian imagery/themes/whatever-you-want-to-call-it in part because I grew up in "The Bible Belt". But it doesn't have the same meaning for me as it would for someone who is actually Christian. I just don't understand why the downvote or the above reply to me informing me the bible is widely read in the US. Total mental disconnect for me. Still scratching my head.

Because it comes off like you're arguing for the unique originality of Andromeda while dismissing any possible "inspirations" for it as unlikely.

It's like arguing that Aslan, the lion from Narnia, is based on Mufasa, the character from Lion King, because they're both lions and both have luxuriously animated manes.

I have no idea where you get that interpretation. I don't know how more clearly I can state that I simply do not know where the name in the series came from. And no one has posted a link to information or given anecdotal evidence that "I saw them say in some interview that it came from...." The disambiguation page you linked to lists a name in the Christian bible and the name of a Canadian city (plus a few other things) in addition to a race on the TV series Andromeda and a name from the Quran. So far, you are suggesting that the series was influenced by the Quran and providing no real evidence of a link. All I am asserting is that I have no idea what influenced the writers of the show. That is the only assertion I have made. I remain baffled as to how that can be misinterpreted and remain baffled by the remark about the bible being widely read in the US, as if I didn't know that.

The comment about the bible was by cema, not mahmud. My impression was that cema interpreted your above comment as saying that people in the US would not respond well to plots based on Christian mythology because it was unfamiliar; when I think you meant that Americans wouldn't respond well to it because they didn't like seeing their sacred stories bastardized by giant stompy robots.

Yes, I realize a different person said it. Yes, I did mean it creates problems when people feel their sacred stories are bastardized -- also that the bastardized stories may use a cool sounding name for a character that has a specific meaning to Christians and this can be confusing to the audience when they don't view it as simply a cool sounding name but, instead, read all kinds of deeper meanings into the character that simply were never intended.

It is ridiculous to think the writers of Andromeda didn't know about Gog & Magog. Repurposing old myths is sci-fi writing 101.

It's ridiculous that I have to defend my statement that I simply do not know what influenced the show while others are not being required to backup their assumption the show was influenced by something specific without providing any actual evidence of it, such as a quote from an interview.

It's also ridiculous that this tangent about Andromeda has grown so long while there has been zero response to my actual on-topic inquiry regarding negotiating with difficult people.

Andromeda could have been the best SciFi show of all time and the ruined it.

The Magog, the Nietzscheans, the hot chicks. That show could have had it all.

There's benefit in saying 'thanks, but no thanks' rather than Fuck You, and I don't think the OP claims otherwise.

In fact, the 'take-away' can sometimes be a great think to say in negotiations - it forces the other party into realising that they need this more than you. Of course, this only really works when they do actually need this more than you. Otherwise you come back later, looking desperate, and ready to get out-negotiated.

This is true, but much better to laugh than get angry. If you get crazy-bad terms, just laugh. "Hah, whoa, that's not what I was expecting..."

If their offer is absurd, treat it like it's absurd. The key is to not take it personally. Laugh. They'll either get more reasonable, or you can walk away without burning bridges.

Thanks lionhearted.

--Mike Hofman

If the deal isn't worth it for you, and you don't have any contractual obligations already, negotiating doesn't mean you have to make a deal. But there are several reasons why someone might make an insultingly low offer, and it may still be possible to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

They may simply be trying a hard-ball negotiation strategy, while being able to afford to go a lot higher.

The best thing you can do is to explain that their offer is worse than nothing for you and there is no way you can go ahead with it (but don't tell them your break-even point), and collect more information about their situation - understand why they want to do business with you, try to understand it from their point of view: how much revenue can they make from what you have, and what their costs and revenues for substitute options. If they won't get as much revenue from the deal as what your costs will be, then it is not possible for you both to make a profit and you can part amicably without doing a deal.

If they would bring in a lot of revenue because of the deal compared to their next best option, you can offer them a price which splits the profit for mutual benefit.

Collecting the information needed to see it from their point of view is hard and takes tact, but it is the most important part of negotiating.

I think saying something along the lines of "we're wasting our time here" and getting up and walking out would be even more effective.

Scott, I tend to agree. I also think it makes sense to actually mean it -- in other words, to have a certain percentage of negotiations that actually don't result in a deal.

--Mike Hofman

In game theory terms, it might be a viable strategy to burn deals at random in order to reinforce the signal that you can, and do, have the willpower to turn down deals.

The trick with douchebags is to 2x the price (or 1/2 if buying) or some other multiplier and make it clear it's non-negotiable. You don't loose your cool, the idiot will feel bad, and they'll think about it twice next time. Sometimes they get desperate and crawl back and close for 2x/3x the price and with a much more profesional attitude. YMMV

It depends on the actual negotiating position. Sometimes you are negotiating with a second stringer who isn't empowered to do what needs to be done.

If the other party needs you and knows it, the "fuck you" or "walk away" tactic brings things to a head quickly.

It takes a bit of experience (and some balls) to know which people to tell off - but! Never underestimate the incredible morale boost a properly crafted "fuck you" can bring to an overworked team in the heat of battle. When followed by a company happy hour, I've seen miraculous things happen.

The world is filled with quacks and assholes - as soon as your radar is tuned, you'll be able to filter the people worth keeping good relations with.

Sometimes, a situation is in (desperate) need of some honest feedback.

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