Comment by Mz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Mz | Hacker News Reader

I never know what to say about stuff like this. My kids are 21 and 23 and have been online for years. They have never had issues with nude photos, bullying, and so on. It does not have to be some huge issue. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

I will note that my kids were homeschooled and the bullying described in the article apparently revolved around this girl's real life social circle from school -- someone she went on an actual date with who spread rumors as a form of vengeance when she didn't put out. On homeschooling lists, there is fairly often discussion about how schools have a "lord of the flies" social dynamic. From my perspective, the incident in question is rooted in that issue, not in the internet per se.

I will also note that the photos in the article, which are described as re-creations of actual photos found online, all show what look to me like very upscale bedrooms that are a cluttered disaster. The settings suggest to me a home where the parents value material things overly much and try to "dote" on their kids by showering them with money and things in place of time and attention. I never had the kind of matching decor and such shown in the photos. But I did grow up with a garden out back, home-cooked meals, and parents helping me with my homework. And my bedroom never looked like the cluttered disaster depicted consistently throughout the photos. My room got cleaned and picked up.

My sons and I laugh at the idea of them being able to get away with some of the stunts we hear about or get into trouble without me knowing. First of all, I was there so much that I would have known what they were up to -- they couldn't have disappeared for hours on end without an explanation and no one noticing. And second of all, I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against. I think that's an important detail.

  > I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against.

I'm curious about this statement. Does that mean that when your child become a teen you placed no restrictions on them, and let them have a free reign?

A) I anticipated problems and taught them "wisdom" before the issue came up so they wouldn't be stumbling around doing stupid, destructive stuff.

B) I'm not a rejecting, judgmental, controlling, authoritarian kind of parent. So there isn't anything to rebel against. For example, when my oldest would say he wanted to play video games for a living when he grew up, I would say "I don't think that's a realistic career goal. But don't let my lack of vision stop you. Feel free to prove me wrong." So he never felt compelled to go make scads of money as a competitive gamer just so he could throw it in my face. He was free to have his idea of what a career looked like evolve without making it a power struggle with his mom.

My kids are very well behaved, ironically because I never required it. On the one hand, I imagine it would take many, many words to adequately explain (and maybe some day I will get back to developing the parenting site I own). On the other hand, I also feel like there really isn't anything to say. Just love and accept your kids. No big. (And work on your own crap. Ninety nine percent of the time, if kids are a-holes, they are just reflecting demons in the parental subconscious. I spent a lifetime hunting down personal demons instead of kicking the crap out of my kids for being reflections of my personal demons.)

I just want to add another voice to this. Really, reading this, you sound very much like my parents. I'm a 21-year-old home school and now college alumnus and I've been thinking some of these same things.

It's not that my parents gave completely free reign, it just that rather than actively directing everything, they backed off somewhat and left a lot of direction up to me. It's not that there weren't rules, it's just that the rules were reasonable and reasonably explained. Of course there were disagreements and children being childish, but there was also respect of their authority, which I think is something horribly lacking in kids today.

Any 'rules' my kids had were rooted in reality, not in mom's neurotic personal crap. "Don't run out into traffic" wasn't some "Because I won't love you anymore/what will the neighbors think?/how can you embarrass me this way???" kind of rule. It was a "because cars will hit you and maim or kill you" rule.

Two days before my 2nd child was born, my then 2 1/2 year old stood between me and his father, each of us holding one of his hands, and was told "don't cross the road without us". Being a bright, curious, strong-headed kid, this meant he promptly pulled away from two adults and dashed out into the road just to see why we saying that. He came so close to being hit by a car that he cut his finger on the side of it (well, he was hit by a car, but only his finger). The driver likely had no idea how close he came to tragedy that day. My son was so short, I don't think the driver ever saw him. I spent the next year standing on the side of the road for up to 20 minutes (in the heat, the snow, the rain) waiting for my oldest son to conclude it was now safe to cross. He needed to learn to use his own judgment to safely cross the road.

I raised my kids with an eye towards producing functional adults who could make their own decisions. That often meant putting up with inconveniences so they could internalize valuable decision-making rubrics instead of simply doing as they were told -- which really doesn't work. Even assuming I had perfect judgment (which I don't), what happens when I am not around to tell them what to do (like at daycare or school or after they grow up and move out)?

It's not "free reign" but "free rein": http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/reign.html

Hmmm. I always thought that 'free reign' made sense in that it was like self-governance with no restrictions.

I always kind of felt like the two were interchangeable. :-D But then I pronounced "facade" as "fake-aid" for years and years. My mind seems to like to blend and overlap two concepts like that.

Ah, Mz, this is the point. Glad you commented. Crazy that at 21 and 23 you feel they were "kids" (or still are in your eyes I am sure, lol) just yesterday.

Now, setting aside some things I personally see as an advantage, which you should be proud of, like home schooling, let's keep it the coming of age argument and also strip the parental argument out for a second (even though I agree that it is a huuuge factor).

Your children were at this age 10 years ago. What has changed in 10 years?

1. Internet speeds that were still mostly dial-up at the time making the ability in quantity of media consumption less at similar time allotments.

2. Digital cameras have not only come way down in price, they exist everywhere and on everything.

3. Webcams were a small market, where now whether you really want one or not it is on often your device (computer, phone, portable media device)

4. Facebook-like sites were really only starting to evolve into the "social staple" (whether you and I agree or not) what they are today.

5. The fact that all these kids, seemingly rich or poor, have or have access to all the above which was nowhere near the case 10 years ago.

The playing field has changed. Before kids victim of bullying were either tormented at school or in their neighborhood or even worse both. Now, there isn't even a "virtual" escape because the bullies are there too. I quoted virtual because virtual has transformed from playing consoles without internet access and other "old-fashioned" forms of escape into everything practically being connected to the internet--socially and playfully.

Bullying is just one example. Go back to the article and the virility in which these coming of age experiences are shared and experienced is at a ferociously fast rate. If you wanted to look at porn in past generations, you either had to wait for a friend or your older sibling to hand over a magazine with still pictures where there would be a small group of friends to share it with--or if they were really lucky a video cassette--but not you can share it with the neighborhood called the world instantly online. Forget pictures of Pamela Anderson that boys had to use their imaginations to fantasize about, now just go over a friends house with more trusting parents if your parents are over your shoulders to forget the pictures, just get it all.

This is the bigger issue. Not one that I can see any stopping. Vigilant parenting and strong bonds will help, but then you also have to depend on equal parenting from the rest of your society. This is a tough one and why it is scary.

Without arguing it, as I said, it can be a problem but doesn't have to be. I realize things have changed in the landscape. But since my kids had strong acceptance from me, they were never desperate for acceptance from others. If others did not accept them, they felt no need to seek that acceptance and so were not easily manipulated in social settings. This is a strong defense against many types of social problems, whether online or off.

I really need to get offline now and attend to some things or I imagine I would be happy to drone on at length.

Later.

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