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Comment by daxfohl | Hacker News Reader

So my experience was the opposite. I came in expecting this great "chemical change" where suddenly the world revolved around my kids and their future.

Well the latter part is true: my world now revolves around them and their futures. But chemical change? No. It's just the responsibility I have now. There's never a break. It's all-encompassing. I mean, it's survivable, I can deal with it, and I do the best I can, but, while it's certainly not PC to say, I regret it. I thought it would be great, and it's not.

What would I be doing so much better with my time had I not had kids? I don't know. Probably nothing. But it doesn't change the fact. I was happier before.

This article made me angry. That's great that Paul has such a wonderful experience. I'm happy for him. But don't act like you can speak for everyone.

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Thank you for sharing that. PG doesn't seem to realize there's a tremendous survivorship bias in what you read about kids due to the taboo of saying you regret it.

I know many parents and there is a giant unspoken difference between the ones that truly love it, and the ones that are just hanging on and trying to survive. Thanks for being honest, it is way more refreshing to hear than anything paul had to say.

Indeed. Also, it's important to remember that a lot of these rainbows and unicorns don't apply to people unwillingly forced into single parenthood (my situation). That's a very rare situation for males, so it kind of gets the short shrift on this forum, but, we're out there...

I had this experience too. Being isolated with that amount of responsibility is a huge burden. Not many people actually get it... It's easy to find superficial sympathies, maybe equally easy to find people who discount your struggle, and rare to find those who really get it. Then to find help; nearly impossible.

I didn't regret my son back then, but it felt like the ultimate sin to ever express my stress or pains because they clearly were due in part to his existence. It's wildly unhealthy not to be able to do so. Shit, it's wildly unhealthy to be isolated like that and absurd not to be able to be openly upset about it.

I'm grateful for my son. I have Paul's experience with all of my kids in terms of the good feelings and the desire to have them in my life. But I'd be lying in a bad way if I ever said they weren't a large part of my suffering at different stages of our lives. It's part of it.

Being a male in that situation is also awful because people kind of shrug it off like... Well, you're not a single mom. Whatever. You're a programmer, you make tons of money. You're lucky!

Ugh. Hard times.

I appreciate the commiseration. You’re right that it’s hard to find people who really get it.

The economic challenges of self-employment combined with the cognitive / mental demands of programming conspire to make “programmer” a uniquely difficult thing to carry on as a single parent, despite the income benefits. There are many days I wish I had a more dull job consisting of some sort of mind-numbing piecework, or a low-level management position consisting mostly of meetings and parrying email, the kind of stuff you really can noodle around in 15 minute blocks instead of requiring huge chunks of many unbounded hours to even get into the right headspace for.

As it stands, child-related impositions and constraints feel like an onerous theft of time and focus because programming is so time-intensive and so dependent on precious, scarce focus. That’s really what having that type of responsibility robs me of the most. It’s hard not to get inadvertently resentful and irritable about that.

The causes greatly contribute to the resentment. My child’s mother is a meth addict, and basically abandoned all three of her children to live on the streets and do meth. The other two ended up with her mother. And all of that after being fleeced by the family law industrial complex for $80k in custody litigation (absurd that it took such a sum to make the humanitarian point). I think it would be a lot easier to come to terms with if the cause weren’t so flagrantly, insultingly ignoble.

Oh my god, I'm sorry. I'm sure that introduces more than enough challenges for the children too, not just you. Drug addiction is hell for everyone involved.

You're dead on about the challenges of programming in this sort of situation. It feels like you're constantly falling a little further behind, losing out on opportunities, endlessly switching contexts... It's hard as hell. I often feel as though within 10 years I'll be irrelevant to this industry because I can't possibly be keeping up with my colleagues.

On the bright side, my relationship with my son is a significant motivator, and things do get easier. There's a light at the end I guess.

THANK YOU for saying this. Not only is it is service to would-be parents, parents who don't feel the chemicals but do feel guilt, but it's also a service to those of us without kids and without regrets.

...and "you da real MVP" for raising your kids well, without "chemical assistance." Thank you.

I'm gay (male) with no plans to adopt, but instead wish to spend my family budget taking care of aging parents so my siblings with kids don't have to. I also very much use my freedom to travel, take professional risks, and create special moments with friends and loved ones. I'm happy for PG and hopefully we always have parents like him, but the essay was weird and your anger understandable.

Thank you for posting your perspective. As someone who's contemplating having kids in the distant future, I'm wondering if there's a way to predict whether these chemical changes will occur for me or not. Do you have any insights here?

In particular, I'm curious about these questions pertaining to your life prior to having children:

- From 1 to 10, how much did you enjoy helping a friend out when it was a mild inconvenience to yourself?

- From 1 to 10, how positive of an emotional reaction do you get when you see a cute dog?

I have a completely unfounded hypothesis that the 'chemical' changes that PG describes are akin to how our brains react when we see cute pets.

I think it depends on how much you want to have kids. If you feel very strongly about it, then go ahead and have kids. You will probably experience the chemical changes in your brain that will help you cope. But if you are unsure about having kids, then don’t have them. You don’t need to over analyze it. If you feel the need to analyze, overthink and research it, then it seems to me like you don’t have the kind of brain that will make it easy for you to be happy while dealing with all the parenting challenges.

I believe that if you need to carefully analyze whether to have kids, then you will also continue to analyze and think about your decision after you already have kids. And it will make you miserable.

I dgaf at all about cute pets, like -1. But a lot of everyday experiences with our toddler are pretty magical feeling.

One thing I've found, if you're exhausted and just waiting to do something else, the whole thing just sucks. I've definitely done that/had days like that. But if you throw yourself into playing with them, and really try to engage, interact, trick them, tickle them when they don't expect it, etc, it becomes amazing, because he picks up on that and gets really into it too, and he appreciates it so much. Like beaming joy. And that's one of the greatest things I've ever witnessed.

Just a point of anecdata. But it really seems to be one of those things where you get more out when you put more in. I don't know that I got an obvious chemical lightswitch thing, it's been a relationship that's grown more and more over time.

Caveat emptor, it's not all fire and brimstone either. It's been a rough couple weeks on a few fronts so everything I've said is slanted by that. Still, everything stands.

Rather than divulge my psychological profile on a public forum, I'll say the following. Spend some time with kids. Volunteer and do activities involving kids. There's plenty of stuff out there. If you end up enjoying them, then you'll probably like your own kids. If you feel like what the hell am I doing here this is not my cup of tea, then my warning is that activities with your own kids is potentially not so different.

Cuteness is not a good indicator. Both kids and dogs can fast grow out of being cute. Just think about how cute they are when you have to clean up their poop.

OTOH, in my experience, raising a dog is quite comparable to the first two years of raising a kid. Less so with cats, they are too independent whereas a dog relies heavily on you.

Another possible way of finding out if you have it in you being a parent, is to play "The Last Of Us". That might sound strange, but I've seen many people say that they felt very protective of Ellie and had parental feelings towards her.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was apprehensive about having kids, and it's certainly true that it's been a big change to my life where I now can't do a lot of the things I used to enjoy doing. However, I find that I'm a lot happier when I don't go around focusing on what I can no longer do but on the enjoyable things in my current life.

We all have aspects of our life that are less enjoyable, but focusing on those do nothing but make you less happy. I'd encourage you to look into Stoic philosophy for advice on how to focus on what's good and enjoyable in your life.

Thank you for sharing. I think it is rare that people share this perspective. It sucks that we can't know if your experience is 1 in 100 or 1,000,000.

I believe there’s research showing that people are on average less happy after having kids, at least for a long period of time.

As a new parent of an 8 month old, I can certainly understand this, even though so far I personally feel much happier than I did before. I think a lot depends on your life situation. With reasonable financial stability, a flexible schedule, and a spouse who (happily) devotes most of her time to the baby, it’s overall a beautiful experience that has given my life a whole new sense of meaning, a depth of love I never knew I could feel, and lots of those peaceful moments pg talks about.

But take away one of those supporting pillars, and I could easily see the stress and responsibilities overwhelming all the positive aspects to the point where it might not be enjoyable anymore.

Thank you for saying that. There's a huge taboo around admitting (even privately!) any regrets around having children, but I imagine there are quite a few people who'd say so if only they weren't too afraid to.

Another taboo is not loving them equally. I admit to regrets about some of them. I like the others very much.

It's too bad I couldn't pick my kids by personality. The random draw has been mixed.

Agree with this. I love my kids like crazy. But I see other parents here that are doing circuit boards and such with their kids, and mine are just not interested at all, and I can't help but wonder what it would be like if.

There was no chemical change for me either, but it's weird to think the world revolves around my child. It doesn't. As parents we have responsibilities, and we try to make sure our child lives a balanced and peaceful life, but I don't spend every minute of non-work time doing stuff for my kid. Neither am I unhappier that I have a child to take care of, nor am I enthralled about it. It's just a part of my life man.

Thanks for the perspective. I know many others who have said the same thing as you, if that’s any comfort.

Did it get easier to change at all once they were old enough for school?

I'm genuinely glad you said this too. I don't have children and don't really want them. I think it's totally fine if people want to have kids.

Even if there isn't a discernible change in your cognitive and thought processes, human beings still can be happy with the choices we make (and we're actually less happy with reversible choices; see Dan Gilbert's talk on happiness).

> chemical change? No.

Not everybody gets the feels/chemical thing indeed, or not the first time. Some people are just less on the emotional / pathos side and more on the rational / logos, the 'rational' kind of feelings or rather 'impressions', 'convictions', sometimes just this 'clarity' — less feels, more words. Same result, just different brains to get there.

I don’t have kids and I have no idea if I will but thanks for having the courage to share your feelings.

It seems very difficult to say these things and I’m sure it makes other parents who might have regrets feel a bit better/less lonely at least.

I read about a study that parents and non-parents are on average equally happy but the parents had a wider range of extreme emotional experiences.

Also remember that people on average become less happy until their 40s or 50s after that their happiness increases again.

Then again, that's statistics and how does that help you if you're an outlier or just at the edge of the normal distribution?

> There's never a break. It's all-encompassing.

I've felt like this too, I've learned you have to make some time for yourself & your partner. Try to get grandparents to look after the children, or friends to take them away. Definitely hire babysitters and maybe even a nanny. When you see them again you'll be re-energized.

I've seen studies that show it makes you less happy on average, with wealth mitigating the impact. I'm sure having paid full or part-time help makes an enormous difference.

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