Comment by cactus2093 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cactus2093 | Hacker News Reader

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Isn't that true of any market though? Everyone wants to pay less for everything, and will shop around and haggle and negotiate to find the best deal. I don't see how that alone is a problem, if you get an offer and the salary is lower than you want to work for, don't take it.

> Ask anyone who has a middle of the road white-collar job how confident they'd be in quitting and getting a new one and they will laugh at you.

Again, I'm not sure what to make of this. That could mean the job market is weak, or it could also just mean that transaction costs are too high (not the same thing), or maybe they're just perceived to be very high and scary. If we instead look at what people actually do instead of what they'd tell you they feel like doing, we arrive at the definition of the unemployment rate - number of people who are looking for a job and can't find one. And that is quite low.

Now I can't say for sure that you're wrong, but I have to say I find the traditional unemployment rate methodology a lot more compelling than your method.

I mean, if you can't see that there is something different about the current market space we are in now vs the one in the 70s/80s I don't know what to tell you other than to read more or talk to people who lived through it.

My father got hired on as a machine maintenance person almost immediately after he dropped out of college, with no previous training or experience whatsoever, and then bought his first house within two years. They trained him and he worked his way up on the job and held it for over 30+ years. Lets look to a quick Indeed listing typing in that same job title today and read a few off the top listing together that don't have 'senior' in the title.

Applicant must have 3 to 5 years’ experience

Three (3) years equivalent work experience required or a machinist/technical degree.

Technical degree/machinist certification or 4-6 years equivalent work experience required.

I mean if you are going to argue that this is the same way the market has always been, that is just completely incorrect, both anecdotally and statistically.

It is the same way the market has always been, everyone always want to pay the best bang for the buck. Back then college dropout is the best bang fror the buck, not many people has college degree. Now more people has college degree, why would company hire someone without degree if they can good hire those who has?

That's kinda dodging the issue though. Is the market still functioning with the same principles it always has? Yes, absolutely. But where does a market where employers generally have more resources and power than employees (even if it's just a little bit) necessarily slowly gravitate towards? A market where prospective employees try to qualify as much as possible to stand out (whether that is actually required or useful for the job doesn't matter, what matters is that it increases the likelihood of getting hired), and in a world where you can essentially "buy" qualification for a lot of money, and go into debt for that money, that results in a lot of (often unnecessary) debt.

> if you can't see that there is something different about the current market space we are in now vs the one in the 70s/80s I don't know what to tell you other than to read more or talk to people who lived through it.

A company I worked for in the 1980s went through some financial hard times, and they instituted an across-the-board 10% pay cut. One of the engineers there was furious about it, and we talked about it. He said how mean, cruel, and unfair it was. I suggested if he felt that way, he should quit and work elsewhere. He was angry at me for that suggestion, saying there was no way he could get another good job.

More generally, people in the 70s/80s were not secure in their jobs nor their job prospects.

I would be furious with you too. This idea that the only way you can make your job better is to quit is simply evil and heartless.

> or a machinist/technical degree

Two year certificate at a community college. I hate to break it to you, but I know a lot of people who take this route, buy houses, and live fulfilling lives with decent salaries for their area. In rural Minnesota, an electrician can buy a 4 bedroom house, new truck, and take 2 or 3 hunting trips a year to Canada. A machinist makes about the same, and can get a decent job in a 20-30 worker plant, as described in this article.

And yes, traditional high school has not prepared us for this, but the workarounds are there. Many community colleges will allow concurrent study for an associates, often at reduced or subsidized cost. In Saint Paul, MN, you can attend a local community college for free if you graduate high school.

I frankly have the opposite opinion. Parents pushed kids to get a bachelors, the gov pushed kids to it, and colleges played along, and kids who had no aspirations to white collar desk jobs ended up with degrees that didn't help them.

> Everyone wants to pay less for everything, and will shop around and haggle and negotiate to find the best deal. I don't see how that alone is a problem, if you get an offer and the salary is lower than you want to work for, don't take it.

The issue is that you can’t even get your foot in the door to haggle. And even if you get an offer, you’re not guaranteed a better one even if you think you’re “worth more”.

> you’re not guaranteed a better one

Jobs were never guaranteed in the US. If you were worth more, you still needed the salesmanship to convince an employer that you were worth it.

Spending effort learning how to write resumes, present yourself, and sell yourself in an interview is extremely worthwhile.

> Jobs were never guaranteed in the US. If you were worth more, you still needed the salesmanship to convince an employer that you were worth it.

Right, but from the thread for this post it seems like it’s much harder to even get to the point where you can talk to an employer, and instead you won’t even be able to pass the set of hard requirements that seemingly didn’t exist a couple decades ago. And that just makes it hard for people to really show what they’re good at. (Personal anecdote: I think every job I’ve had has little to do with what I’m actually good at, because I’ve found it hard to sell that sort of thing convincingly on a resume. So I never meet the people who’d be able to judge me appropriately in those topics.)

On the other hand, I go to nwcpp.org meetings, and there's always an outfit there stoning every tern looking for C++ programmers. I've been contacted by Symmetry Investments with 20 D programming positions to fill. Tech companies sponsor and attend tech conferences for the purpose of finding engineers to hire.

Giving an hour presentation is a fantastic way to sell your abilities. Tech conferences are often desperately looking for someone, anyone, to give a talk. Meetups, and nwcpp.org, are always looking for presenters. I often fill in at nwcpp and give a D talk because they couldn't find a C++ speaker. I often get contacted by conference organizers looking for speakers.

Employers will troll through github accounts looking for recruits. Want to get noticed? Contribute to a significant open source project. There is no gate there. Anyone can contribute.

Shotgunning out resumes is generally the most useless way to get hooked up.

> I often get contacted by conference organizers looking for speakers.

I can't help but think that the fact that you're Walter Bright may have something to do with that ;)

> Contribute to a significant open source project.

Operative word being "significant". I work on far too many smaller ones…

> Shotgunning out resumes is generally the most useless way to get hooked up.

Agreed.

I assume you mean “worthwhile” from the selfish perspective of a worker competing in the labour market. Overall, writing résumés and “selling yourself” is a waste of time that is necessary to deter bad actors. People who believe in the “signalling theory” of education think this extends to the whole education system.

Then why is everyone insistent on importing cheaper labor from India and China? They're more willing to do the work for less.

I will say, to get your foot in the door you need to be strategic and realistic with your salary expectations. You're not going to get a great an amount on your first entry level job.

Thinking you're going to be making >100k as a junior engineer outside of SF is optimistic and entitled. Having been in this field for a while at this point it's not unsurprising a lot of engineers are complaining about the skillset required to get the job done. The issue is startups can't afford to hire interns and juniors as they need to actually get work done and not have supervise them.

> And even if you get an offer, you’re not guaranteed a better one even if you think you’re “worth more”.

This isn't an issue, if you "think" you're worth more then you decline that offer and continue looking. If you're struggling for money you take it and keep looking.

> If you're struggling for money you take it and keep looking.

Exactly, which is why I brought it up as a response to why you wouldn’t just reject any offers that are below what you’d like.

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