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Vanlife seems a little extreme lifestyle change.

I think a good middle ground is to buy a cheap piece of land outside of the city, and putting a small/cheap structure on it. RV/Camper, converted shed (Tiny houses are nice, but $$$).

Live off grid and the only cost you'd pay is property taxes.

Maybe, but you would still be tied to one place without any people around, and I can't imagine having to live like this without being able to run away. Personally, I'm sort of hoping for an immediately fatal motorcycle crash before I have to worry about going back to work, but I'll probably stick with renting if that doesn't pan out. In the meantime, there's an old joke that brings me comfort:

A person is running from an angry bear when they stumble off a cliff and get snagged by a strawberry bush, which is in full bloom. Looking up, they see the bear watching them patiently. Looking down, they see a sheer cliff and a fatal drop with no handholds. Certain death above, certain death below, and the person won't survive long without water. What should they do?

Answer: eat the strawberries.

Beautiful analysis on the less tangible benefits of van life.

The benefit of van life for me it was the fact that if you're not rich, you spend all your time simply surviving in this current economy and can never truly thrive and follow your dreams, whether that's meeting people, or chasing a hobby project, or working a lower paying job to make the world a better place. Your job is to just survive.

For example:

30%+ of our income goes to taxes

20%-30%+ to rent + utilities

15% to student loans(if you have any).

10%+ (or way more if you're sick) to healthcare

5% to a car payment + insurance + gas

After all of that you only get 20%ish of your paycheck?

Then you have retirement to worry about because you can't rely on social security anymore.

Slavery still exists it's just expanded to include every race.

Van life at least frees you from that extra 20% plus it frees you from signing a 2 year lease obligation just to have a place to live. And in a job market that is chaotic you may have to move sooner than that so van life gives you the freedom to choose your life a lot better and is actually a lot more financially responsible.

"Slavery still exists it's just expanded to include every race." This is a very tasteless comment. It's also just flat out wrong. For the vast majority of human history, and in many countries today, people had to work more than 40 hours a week just to supply themselves and their family with food, shelter, and clothing. We live in a time of immense wealth and leisure relative to the lives of most people.

The average American works more today then a medieval peasant.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/medieval-peasants-vacation-m...

We live in a time of immense wealth, but not leisure.

This is only true because the authors are trying to use a capitalist definition of work to a precaptialist society. There was a huge amount of time spent on household tasks like mending clothes, preparing food, doing repairs, spinning clothes etc.

The article also talks about how peasants took frequent rests, but this is because they were doing extremely physically demanding work, not because they had a chill schedule.

Edit: A great example is that in Mexico and the American Southwest one of a woman's traditional tasks was grinding corn by hand, which could take up to 5 hours for her families supply. Other areas of the world that ate grains and didn't have access to mills would have had to spend a similar amount of time.

Idk, Americans also spend a lot of time on things that are necessary like that:

Cleaning, paying taxes, commuting, exercise (because most workers don't get it at work anymore), buying and cooking food, taking care of house and car, laundry, etc.

I huge amount of time is spent on those things and that wasn't included in the 40 hours.

You're right that I shouldn't have used the 40 hours in my first most as it isn't an apples to apples comparison. The fact remains though that in comparison people in first world countries today have much more time that doesn't have to be spent on productive tasks then people in most of history. Cooking food list in your example took much more time in the past, and cars require much less maintenance then a car.

>The average American works more today then a medieval peasant

The average medieval peasant was illiterate, slept on straw, had to work if they were sick and God forbid they broke a bone they would likely have the bone set incorrectly handicapping them to varying degrees for the rest of their life.

The average American has air conditioning, electric or gas heat, a smartphone, watches television several hours a week and rarely has to worry about food poisoning or getting intestinal parasites.

Give up the air conditioning, the car, the 3000$ laptop every 2-3 years, the 1200$ smartphone every 18-24 months, the Netflix/Hulu/Disney+/Spotify subscriptions, never purchase a single item that is (or contains a component that was) imported, the exotic vacations 0.5-4x a year, the 4-9$ cup of coffee 1-3x a day and that food delivery service you use 1-7x a week, running water and all electricity at your residence and you too could work considerably less.

So, like van life?

I'm taking it you've never been to subs like /r/vandwellers where it's all

"what do you do for a washing machine"

"what do you do for internet"

"what do you do for heating"

"what do you do for air conditioning"

"what is your toilet setup"

"what do you cook on"

"what sort of PV system do you have"

Having to work is not slavery. Wild animals work and they're as free as free gets. Work is a necessity of survival, the necessities of life require labor to create/get and it's on you to carry your own weight, that's not slavery, that's reality.

This is such an antiquated heavy handed perspective.

How much work is the right amount of work? 40 hours? 80 hours? Are people working 2 jobs but still not making ends meet not 'pulling their own weight'?

How does supply and demand figure into this? Are people who get automated out of a job no longer pulling their own weight?

Does the fact that someone exploits their employees and only pays them 10% of the value that they generate while keeping the 90% meant that business owner is just 'pulling their own weight'?

According to your missing definition of 'pulling your own weight' slavery back in the 1800 could be viewed as just people 'pulling their own weight'.

Are people in towns where no jobs are available even though they want to work...just not 'pulling their own weight'?

Your simplifications are not well thought out and frankly stupid.

>There's no point in trying to settle down in a world where it is impossible to meet people or build communities.

this attitude is exactly WHY it's so hard to meet people or build communities.

Well, personally I spent about 5 years trying in Seattle. Endless meetups, volunteering, local events, you name it. But without a Facebook presence, trying to make friends or date or build a life is like trying to make water flow uphill.

There's only so long that you can try and so much that you can do before you give up in despair. At some point, you have to acknowledge that you cannot be part of a community without the participation of other people.

I have lifelong friends who I've never used Facebook to communicate with.

If you've tried this many times and keep failing maybe the problem is with you.

Maybe it is me, but when did you meet those friends? I've tried to contort myself and my personality into just about every shape that I can imagine over the course of those years. I don't think that there's anything wrong with me, and I do my best to be kinder than is necessary, but here I am.

So yes, maybe the problem is me. I hope not, but if it is and if I can't change that, then leaving society still seems like a sensible thing to do.

There's a saying I like.

"If one day, you meet an asshole - then you met an asshole. If one day, you meet a hundred assholes - then you're an asshole."

A bit harsh, perhaps, but still relevant.

Yes, I think about that saying every day, and have for years.

It is difficult.

Yea but if you look around you and everyone seems to be antisocial to each other (removing yourself from the picture) you might be in the wrong place. If you can travel somewhere else and immediately people treat you differently than it's not you, it's the place.

Savage AF

The least helpful intervention imaginable

Sounds like you might have been experiencing a bit of the Seattle Freeze [0].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze

Those things can help, but I have found you have to go much deeper than meetups and single one-off events. I have noticed a number of people in the current generation are kind of handicapped when it comes to forming social connections. Digital social media tools build surface level only communities in many cases. Meetups go deeper, but it is all still surface level.

One solution to this is to find a deep and meaningful hobby in your area. I have found Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (a grappling martial art) to be one such "real" community. IDK, I still think van life is a legitimate way to live, but without digging into community issues and essentially abandoning all communities there never will be any communities people can adopt.

Here is what works about BJJ and the community it builds:

1.) Doing a physically hard thing together

2.) Broad appeal, very technical if you want it to be

3.) See the same people every week for years

4.) Goal is to improve each others skills in BJJ, but it is a very difficult martial art that builds a mindset of overcoming struggle

5.) My academy we give back to our broader community through charity events, etc.

6.) Community is a mindset. I have found you have to really push and pull the younger generations out of their shell and show them how to socialize to some extent.

--

Of course those qualities above aren't the only qualities that build a community but there are common themes. Working together to pull each other up with a perceivable sense of forward progress is a big element. I am not such a pessimist about communities and the current generation, but I definitely see how digital media and social media have stunted real communities in favor of shallower ones.

Thank you for your insight. What you say resonates a lot with my experience, and I'm glad that you've found something which brings people around you together in a positive way.

I heard the same exact sort of complaints before the internet existed as even a niche thing for the ubernerds. Industrialization is a common culprit but given the "urge to go away adventuring or sailing" I suspect base human condition personally.

On a related note about community it brings to mind Fight Club, Rent, and other "pre-Great Recession" aging very poorly as bitching about your cozy office job which pays the rent handily just came across as a spoiled rich kid to those in the downturn.

This crystallizes something I've been thinking for a while. A major source of community in the past has been religious groups. What makes membership in a church great at establishing community line up very closely with your 6 points.

But as religion continues it's slow death, it's not been clear what replaces this important role of building community in our society. Hobby groups/clubs is at least one of the answers. My own hobby of mountaineering and climbing is very similar to yours of BJJ. Religion is basically just a glorified shared interest club that you're born into.

Something I haven't seen talked much about is how we financially support these types of groups. A lot of clubs either rely exclusively on volunteer effort and therefore are very fragile or high membership fees (like BJJ studios) that are out of reach for most people.

Yeah... BJJ is not a perfect solution, but it is a real community and we try to be very inclusive. So, if someone truly can't afford the fees, they can often teach classes or do a certain number of hours of work around the gym cleaning up after class, etc. Churches and large community gatherings foster a sense of "we are in this together". It is the oldest social safety net in the books probably, where you know when you are a part of this group, even if you fall on hard times, these people are here for you. BJJ is the same way. In a visceral way, like if shit is going down, I know these guys and gals have my back, but also in a community sense of if I am ever hungry, there are people who will help me out. It is definitely a challenge in modern society. I am not sure the mega-church style community needs "replacing" so much as people need to really buy into the concept of their place of residence as a genuine community and not just a bunch of silo'd off individuals. Of course politics and government policy does a lot to encourage/discourage this at a macro level (fostering segmentation in the population and outright disdain for our neighbors, who happen to be poor, etc... but that is a whole different discussion).

This is a great way to look at it. Repetitive meeting is definitely foundational to building relationships. Activities that involve some sort of accomplishment or triumph especially, like BJJ for you.

I didn't really put that together until now, but you're totally right. As a CS student, I've had group projects that involve regular meetings and a large project is developed over the course of a semester. Seeing my team mates constantly helps form bonds, but the wins and triumphs are probably the most influential.

I still remember submitting a project in the library at 2am and cheering that we were finally done. We got together for pizza and video games later that week for a more formal celebration.

The PNW is terrible for community building. I recently moved to the deep south and the overall vibe is much different, much more focused on community.

Yeah I know people that moved N-West from the East coast and they all had trouble making friends. Maybe just the culture is too different.

Seattle itself has a reputation for this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze

While the culture is different, the difference I see, is that people in the NW want to keep to themselves, where other places people want to share.

My experience has been in any place with a high concentration of transplants (Seattle, London) many are expecting third parties like Meetups to form the community when the hard part is the actually asking people to spend time together and then following up, even if the interest starts asymmetric. It is akin to dating.

The Wikipedia article on "Seattle Freeze" suggests there might be something to Washington's introversion.

> While some residents dispute the existence of the Seattle Freeze, a 2008 peer-reviewed study published in Perspectives on Psychological Science found that among all 50 states, Washington residents ranked 48th in the personality trait extraversion. In 2014 a similar report by the Seattle CityClub ranked the population 48th out of 50 similarly-sized cities in activities such as "talking with neighbors frequently".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze

Interesting. I lived in the PNW for 15, maybe more years of my life - AK, WA, and ID. Washington was certainly unique in attempting meeting people.

I live in the pnw and have lots of really good friends. Only moved here a few years ago but have found more acceptance and deep connections here than the south.

It's taken those years to break through the shells but people repeatedly tell me they like hanging out with me because I listen. I empathize. I'm genuine. I'm authentic.

You have to be real. Be committed to your fellow human beings. There's a dearth of that up here. A lot of judgemental people. Closed minds. Antagonism.

But if you are patient and keep letting people show you who they are and be who they are they'll cine to love you.

We need more people like that up here. They are here. Keep the good ones close and more will collect.

I am so happy I found my place. The weather is gross right now. People are staying inside shivering and will be until May next year. Try the library. Ask people questions.

I hear the same things repeatedly. No one says hi. No one smiles. No one approaches me. Do those things. People long for that.

As much as you want people to do that for you, they want it too. Be kind. reach out. Continue with the responsive ones.

Would you like to get coffee sometime? One on one works well with introverts.

While I would love to get coffee, I live in New Orleans now. You mention weather right now being gross up there, which I remember clearly. Today it will be 72 and sunny here. I wonder if the weather causes social issues, unknowingly?

It certainly does. The sun on your skin makes vitamin d which has all kinds of happy effects on us.

I don't think there's any question it does. When you travel enough in the tropics it becomes glaringly obvious. Anyone who thinks weather doesn't affect how people act should try flying from whatever northern latitude place they live in the dead of winter to a tropical place and observe the locals, I guarantee you'll see a lot more smiling and happy looking people than where you just came from

Sometimes it just makes sense to go somewhere else, either temporarily or permanently. People are influenced by their environment and trying to change it can be as futile as trying to live forever. We only have so much time here in this life. If everyone in a place seems a certain way you don't like then it can be healthy to visit other places at least for sake of comparison

Agreed, it's terribly cynical

Do you have any recommendations for the satellite beacon? My brother is doing this in his RV and I’d love to get him one. Thanks.

I have a Delorme Inreach. Highly recommended... Apparently Garmin bought them.

https://explore.garmin.com/en-US/inreach/

I use a Garmin inreach - the mini one is a little hard to use on its own because of the small monochrome display, but it pairs to your phone with bluetooth and has a nice companion app.

Also, the EarthMate app has a nice mapping interface which shows things like topographic maps and major trails, and it lets you download maps ahead of time in varying levels of detail for offline use.

One of the good places that I have been has been recently is Indian Creek in Utah.

There were a lot of folks living in vans in dispersed camping, just hanging out and climbing.

I found it very easy to meet folks in that community. Specifically, I've found it easy to just walk up to a camp fire and introduce myself. Lots of folks are looking for partners to climb with.

I love to climb, but there is definitely a side-benefit of being able to meet a bunch of people who have motivations to do similar things, and climbing lends itself well to dirt-bagging.

I can't comment on other subcultures or sports. My experiences with musicians has been similar, though.

Gen X and Boomer hippies also enjoyed some van life. It's not new. Millennials didn't invent wanderlust.

Be the change you want to see. Build beautiful interpersonal landscapes to rival our natural ones.

Easier said than done - I can't force people to interact with me, and I wouldn't want to.

So how do you create beautiful interpersonal landscapes which only involve one person?

>And it's not expensive. Personally, I spent less than $25k

That's quite expensive to a large percentage of the country. 19% of the country grosses less than that annually [1].

Van life, living in a THOW (tiny house on wheels) etc is very much a luxury in the vast majority of cases (probably why you tend to see a lot of CS/tech types with individual salaries 2-3x the median household income doing it).

> it is impossible to meet people or build communities.

That really just depends on what you choose to do with your free time. If you are at all religious, regularly attending religious services where you live is all but certain to give you the opportunity (unless you go to a 'mega' church).

There are things like Freemasonry, Independent Order of Odd Fellows, CrossFit/barbell clubs/strongman facilities, organized bowling leagues, Toastmasters, LUGs (Lego User Groups - adult lego groups), vintage computer clubs, game stores that have regular tabletop and trading card game playing times, the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism - period accurate medieval reenactment), other living history groups, adult softball/basketball leagues, supper clubs, etc.

[1] https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/#Me...

Keep in mind that $25k for the van is for a home and transport. Where else can you get a home/transportation combo for that price? Sure there can be fees for places to park but the overall total cost to live has to be significantly lower than all of us in the rat race paying city rent or McMansion mortgages.

A lot of places? There is a pretty significant portion of the country where you can get a downpayment on a house for $10k and pick up a nice enough used car for a couple thousand. There are more options then living in an expensive city, a mcmansion, and a van.

It's true, but as we see in another discussion today [1], those options typically don't come with a very good internet connection. :)

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21722874

How is a down payment a fair comparison to all up ownership? If we’re going that route what’s to say he didn’t put down $5k on a $25k loan?

I can’t imagine there are many places in the US where you can purchase a home and car for less than $25k. Total purchase price, not down payment.

Is a downpayment on a house the same as buying outright an RV?

RVs need gas, maintenance, and a place to be all of which generally cost money. Especially if you want access to sewer, water, and electricity.

Do those things generally cost more than a mortgage, insurance, property tax, and utilities on a house that you made a $25K downpayment on?

I don't own an RV, but I've owned two houses and I'm guessing the RV monthly expenses will be quite a bit lower.

I'm not trying to argue whether or not an RV or a cheap house is going to be less expensive, a question I am not interested in. It's in disputing the assertion that you can't afford a home and transportation for less than $25k and the idea that your only choice is an expensive inner city apartment, a mcmansion, or a van.

My mistake. I thought you were answering bronco21016's question of "Where else can you get a home/transportation combo for that price?"

You've missed the entire point.

Fuck your 'downpayment'. That's exactly what people are rejecting - the idea that they should simply become a serf to some previous landowner for multiple decades because they happened to be born later.

A van may have maintenance, but it's not rent-seeking behaviour.

You can buy a mobile home for $25k (not in San Francisco, of course). They are not perfect, but neither are RV's.

> probably why you tend to see a lot of CS/tech types with individual salaries 2-3x the median household income doing it).

and no kids.

Social dancing too. Most major cities have at least some scene for each of swing, salsa, ballroom, and tango. And typically you can actually hear people over the music, so it is actually possible to go and socialize, and it's perfectly acceptable to show up alone, without a big posse.

That said, if you do this, please do not be creepy— at least in the swing dance scenes I was involved in in (Toronto, Seattle, New York), the overwhelming majority of people were there to have fun dancing, not to hook up or be hit on.

It's not a luxury to live in a van. Lots of very poor people do it in California. It is a luxury to live in a van AND be able to travel.