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Comment by farazbabar | Hacker News Reader

There are a ton of gremlins in Tesla just waiting to go off like time bombs. I recently got a very expensive repair just outside of warranty where the car simply refused to charge. Paid nearly 3000 for the diagnosis and repair for the car to start charging again - we are talking about a car with no wear and tear parts for the most part costing nearly 3K because a chip somewhere between the charge port and battery failed. My whole reason for buying it was that this would be the ultimate reliable car without ICE or brake wear, leaving tires as the only consumable. Guess I was wrong.

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Even in combustion engine cars if ECM buckles up it usually is expensive to repair(at least in my part of the world). I guess with a car like Tesla, rich with electronics & unavailability of parts to 3rd party service centers; repairs can be very expensive.

ECUs made in the last 10-20 years don’t really ever fail. Bosch has really figured things out and produces reliable ECUs for most OEMs.

The repair on your Tesla will cost more than a motor or transmission replacement on a conventional vehicle.

Tesla owners should file a class action lawsuit to force Tesla to extend their warranty to cover this issue. Tesla will try to fight it and make you pay out of pocket.

> Tesla owners should file a class action lawsuit to force Tesla to extend their warranty to cover this issue.

Why is it Tesla's responsibility to fix the car out of warranty?

Because their design decision means this part is guaranteed to fail after an unreasonably short time.

But isn't that the consumer's fault for agreeing to buy a car with "an unreasonably short" warranty? If Tesla said the warranty lasts however long, why would you feel entitled to legal protection for it to last longer?

If you're saying this part is intentionally designed to fail shortly after the warranty expires, then I understand your point. Is that what you mean?

EDIT: The way I see it is if I buy a car with a 3 year warranty and something fails after 4 years, it's not the manufacturer's responsibility to fix it because the warranty has expired. Why do you think it is?

Auto manufacturers commonly do targeted warranty extensions and recalls for design and manufacturing defects outside of warranty.

Ford for example did, with failing intake manifolds and the issue where the engine would eject spark plugs on Modular V8 engines.

Tesla in particular is screwing over the people it needs the most, by making boneheaded component choices.

Fair point. I don't know why I had a mental block and the idea of a recall never entered into my mind.

I completely agree Tesla cheaped out on this part, I just wasn't convinced they are responsible for fixing it. I'm still not sure this justifies a class action lawsuit (I don't really feel strongly one way or the other), but I at least understand why Tesla might be held accountable for their actions.

Your argument is not totally unreasonable - but not within industry norms. Also Tesla is the manufacturer for electric cars in the public's eye, if they get a reputation for unreliability it will set the technology back decades. (see the Oldsmobile Diesel engine from the 80's)

So for a variety of reasons, I'd argue they have a moral responsibility to fix it, INAL, so it's unknown to me if they have a legal or regulatory responsibility too.

<i> it's unknown to me if they have a legal or regulatory responsibility too</i>

Depends on the regulatory environment. In the main though people can expect cars to last for a good long while with maintenance, so a part that was guaranteed to fail well before then no matter how good care the consumer took of it would be a regulatory no no.

I think the length of the warranty is kind of a distraction. Say Teslas had a particularly generous 6-year full warranty, but this part was guaranteed to fail 100% of the time after 6.5 years and cost thousands to fix. People would be justifiably upset.

> People would be justifiably upset.

You're talking about whether or not people should be upset. I'm talking about whether or not Tesla is legally responsible. These are orthogonal topics.

Yes, people should be upset with Tesla for a shitty design. I don't think anyone is arguing that. I don't think that automatically means Tesla should get sued for it.

Then again, I've never tried to sue an automaker. So maybe I'm just ignorant of how this is supposed to work.

In a world of perfect information things would be different. If a consumer knew before purchase that a car was going to die shortly after the warranty ends, they wouldn’t have much of a case.

But if Tesla cheaps out on critical items, thus dooming a car to that scenario, and a consumer can’t know that, it introduces a different legal dynamic.

(Disclaimer: IANAL.)

> Fair point. I don't know why I had a mental block and the idea of a recall never entered into my mind.

Because us tech people have been successful at hand-waving away product defects as mere planned obsolesce; we think about it as an option less and less. Point: Intel and all of the speculative execution crap, and specifically TSX (or the lack there of... but marketed as "Secure!" regardless).

Yeah it pisses me off. If you make an under-delivering pile of shit and make no attempt to right the wrong, fuck you and your company.

> EDIT: The way I see it is if I buy a car with a 3 year warranty and something fails after 4 years, it's not the manufacturer's responsibility to fix it because the warranty has expired. Why do you think it is?

The normal expected lifetime of a new car today is apparently 8 years or 150,000 miles. So I would expect the car to last 8 years on average. If a car is going to last significantly less than that on average (e.g. assuming this means the car needs a fix every 4 years), this should be disclosed in the marketing.

"years" of warranty is a silly concept anyway. If I buy a new car then store it in a perfect environment unused for 20 years (assuming we maintain anything that isn't stable like oil), it should still work as if new. If it doesn't, it clearly wasn't sold fit for purpose.

Many places recognize an “implied warranty” which holds manufacturers to some basic standards by law.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty

One might argue that this flash memory was not the correct choice for the purpose it was being used for, and as an expert, it’s was Tesla’s duty to select a part up to spec for the purpose it was being used for.

It is striking how different the attitude to this is in Australia.

All products and services in Australia need to be fit for purpose. There's no strict definition for this but it basically means if you are selling a "premium" product, your warranty lasts for however long is reasonable in the eyes of the courts and not what the manufacturer says. It is very pro-consumer.

It would be reasonable to assume that a $40k-$100k car would last 10+ years. Obviously this doesn't cover consumables but bad memory cards would definitely be covered.

US law also has a very similar provision

https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-315

ECUs made in the last 10-20 years don’t really ever fail. Bosch has really figured things out and produces reliable ECUs for most OEMs.

Sure they do. Take a look at the FICM failures with the Ford 6.0 diesel. In the gasoline world you'll come across failed injector or ignition drivers if you look hard enough. Failures due to environmental causes (like the wiring harness wicking hydraulic fluid into the control unit itself) are a thing as well.

It's not engine related, but BMW's late 90s-early 2000s five series uses a computer to control its lights. The failure mode is that your lights stay on as long as the battery is hooked up (fail safe). Unfortunately the IC that BMW used was discontinued by Infineon. I think a surface mount version is still available, but ultimately yeah these things wear out and you're largely at the mercy of the OEM.

Injectors and ignition coils are effectively wear parts however on an ICE engine. Though for balance here, I just had to replace the fuel injector on one of my cars, it lasted 30 years however, so I'm not too upset by the 300 bucks it cost to replace it.

Injectors and ignition coils are effectively wear parts however on an ICE engine.

Injector drivers and ignition drivers are part of the control unit.

I'd strongly dispute that. Why not include the spark plugs as well? And the fuel pump?

The ECU is a computer, a packaged bundle of chips which plugs in to wires and does nothing but communicate to other components via those wires. That's what an electronic control unit means.

The driven devices, amplifiers etc. are under the control of the control unit. They are not part of the control unit. They're located in areas subject to much more heat and mechanical stress, and in most cases (ignition coils excepted) are mechanical in function.

I think GP is saying they're physically located on the ECU board / inside the ECU box, not that they're conceptually part of the ECU even if separate. Whether they are or not (physically inside the ECU box) differs by make and model.

I'd strongly dispute that. Why not include the spark plugs as well? And the fuel pump?

Because...

I'm not talking about the driven devices.

Here's a diesel example in video form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k-G1dMgFUo

Here's one in gasoline form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mWlUuEx_xE

I believe Tesla has competent lawyers who would advice to sneak the binding arbitration clause in the purchase contract.

ECUs aren't perfect. On my old 2003 Volvo a common problem was solder points in the instruments panel failing after 8 to 10 years, and for the central ECU the connectors could corrode due to moisture. Luckily I wasn't affected by either. Of course Bosch probably doesn't perform "disruptive" software fuck-ups such as Tesla did here, and if they do, chances are good out-of-warranty replacements are free or at least come at a reduced price.

(But at least an EV doesn't have issues like VWs "maintenance free timing chain" skipping a link or two after 70kkm/50kmi)

That's right around the time ROHS was introduced. The entire electronics industry had massive growing pains in the switch to lead free solder.

Late reply, but nope, iirc automotive was one of the industries which were/are exempt from the whole lead-free stuff because the ECU are safety critical.

Non-failing ecus are down to overspecd components, and obsessive supply chain management, given a decent board design. One single capacitor swapped out for a cheaper spec one can brick a huge percentage of correctly produced boards. Tesla is new, and this is a growing pain, and result of not hiring, or perhaps heeding the advice of, those familiar with industry best practices.

The comparison would be fair if Tesla didn't cheap out and take shortcuts. Consumer grade flash memory? Non-automotive grade displays: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows... ? Dodgy build quality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSLTNjGI8hw ?

Maybe "Made by Tesla" is the new "Made in China".

But that is disruption of the automotive world!

Not sure why people consider breaking best practices without understanding them in the first place is a good idea...

See also: Chesterton’s Fence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fen...

I think you overestimate the quality of "made for automotive" and underestimate the importance that SW has in cars. These were essentially SW issues. This kind of SW fuckup can will and does happen for bigger OEM's all the time.

Tesla definitively has a problem with hardware design decisions. Remember the Model S touchscreen issue? Somehow their designers forgot that cars heat up in summer and instead of automotive used consumer grade hardware!

Meanwhile companies like Garmin and Magellan manage to build GPS devices that work just fine even though they spend their whole lives in the passenger compartment. They did this since the beginning, I never heard that you should stay away from this or that manufacturer of GPS units because the touchscreen fails.

My first touchscreen Garmin unit, circa 2007, definitely suffered from reliability issues in FL summer heat. Just keeping it on the dash in direct sunlight while driving was enough to affect its operation.

I’m guessing it didn’t effect their brand much because other companies like Tom Tom were aggressively targeting the entry-level market segment, and then the iPhone came out the same year.

The number people who had these higher-end units in hot southern states was likely just too small to significantly tarnish Garmin’s brand goodwill.

Soon enough most people switched to using their phone once the software was good enough (circa 2009 IIRC).

They're options where: Ship a 17" LCD display (a key feature not the Model S) or don't ship one at all, because there were no 17" capacitive touch display certified for automotive use. Sometimes you just have to ship, especially if your touchscreen is the main interaction component of your product.

The first iPhone didn't have 3G while other phones had it. In order to do something new, you need to cut some corners. It's not like Tesla shipped non-automotive breaks.

Source: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...

My understanding is that they use non-automotive grade displays because there simply were none large enough. I can somewhat forgive them for using something almost as good to achieve the design they need. The Model 3 would have to be completely different if it didn't have the large screen.

Is any car company making a simple electric car without fancy features, or at least one where they're optional? Even the Nissan Leaf now has all sorts of high-end features. I'd much rather have a simple, cheaper, reliable car with less points of failure.

Edit: Thanks for the suggestions!

Tesla fans will tell you otherwise, but pretty much all of the EVs from "traditional" automakers are more reliable than Tesla vehicles. Cheaper & easier to service too.

I've heard very good things about the Nissan LEAF, Hyundai Ioniq, Hyundai Kona, and Kia Niro. It might be a coincidence but all of these cars are packaged more like traditional cars, i.e. popping the hood allows you to access many of the components.

Unfortunately if you're looking for a mid- to high-end EV that isn't an SUV or crossover, your choices are still pretty limited, for now. There's the Taycan now, but it's not really in the same price point as the Model S, let alone the Model 3. Maybe the Audi e-tron sedan when it comes out will be a bit more reasonable (relatively speaking).

More reliable? Didn’t leafs of the same time period of the Tesla models being discussed here have horrible battery degradation issues? Hyundai and Kia electrics are too new to the market to know if there will be serious issues

All those old Leafs with "horrible battery degradation" from the USA are now taxis here in Ukraine. A car model needs to be VERY reliable and maintainable to be popular as a taxi here, so it's a high praise for the Leaf. The batteries don't degrade straight to zero, they are still very usable. Battery degradation only helped to lower the price of an otherwise very nice car.

Early Leafs would apparently get their batteries cooked in Phoenix because no active cooling. We’ve got one of the first ones that rolled off the line, and eight years of Seattle weather has ours at ~12% degradation. We otherwise haven’t done shit to that car except drive it. So from my POV, I read the issues with Tesla’s and just shake my head.

The Volkswagen e-Up and its slightly cheaper but otherwise identical counterparts from Škoda and Seat might fit the bill. They now come with a respectably sized battery (32kwh) and lower prices.

Also PSA (Peugeot, Opel (fromerly owned by GM in Germany), Citroen, DS) is coming out with all-electric versions of the Peugeot 208 / Opel Corsa. Slightly smaller than a VW Golf.

On the true luxury end you also have the Jaguar i-Pace. If you have the 80k EUR to spend that is. There are a lot of traditional car makers coming up with electric cars now. With the added benefit that in some cases they can be built at the same factory like their ICE brethren. That would allow them to drive costs down quickly if the demand is there and economies of scale kick in.

My Chevy Bolt is like that. It's the most basic (and boring) unassuming car in terms of looks and options. It blends in well with everything else on the road. At the same time it's more fun to drive compared to any ICE vehicle I've ever owned.

Chevy Bolt is only offered in North America though. On this side of the pond the options are much more limited when it comes to small and cheap EVs.

Get a used, 2015+, base model leaf. No nav system or touch screen crud.

yeah we traded analog wear for bit rot. There's hope though, maybe computer-like standardization will emerge, making part and diagnosis cost lower.

We need right to repair for this to be a realty. Right now we're fighting corporations for control of our possessions.

That's kinda expected. Once a car becomes a pile of buggy software, someone needs to maintain it and fix bugs. That someone is called a SW engineer and happily charges 200-300/hour. Add on top of that the service dep fees that can be substantial (e.g. I pay ~150/hour for mechanical repairs, but the actual mechanic looks like a guy who works for a minimum wage).

The high hourly pay of a software engineer is not significant when that high cost is spread over hundreds of thousands of units sold.

A corrolary of this is that when it is not spread over a high number of units, in a niche product, it will be very expensive so we will see even less niche products as software takes over more functions.

> My whole reason for buying it was that this would be the ultimate reliable car without ICE or brake wear

The mechanical parts of a well maintained ICE car rarely die for no reason. Electronics on the other hand...

Not necessarily. Parts in some models offered by some manufacturers are simply poorly made, and are bound not to last long, regardless of maintenance.

And for many of us Tesla was the biggest intersection between DRM, @InternetOfShit , and #righttorepair . And even just the whiff of one of those was enough to be a hard no.

And for those of you whom know their history, this has all the hallmark signs of anti-trust.

Well now that you're out of warranty you no longer need to go to the dealer so to speak, you can go to aftermarket repair shops. Yes these do exist for Teslas.

It’s quite risky to do so. Tesla has locked people out of super chargers for unauthorized repairs before.

Wow Tesla have big brass balls. Charging exorbitant fees for designed-in flaws and intentionally bricking it if you fix it yourself? The next time Elon's house gets vandalized we won't have to wonder why...

Probably them pinching pennies, not using automotive-grade components. This keeps happening: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...

Enjoy replacing literally every part of your car if you expect it to last close to a decade.

This is where I get annoyed at Tesla. Everything is a wear and tear part.

When I was considering a Model3 they harped on how reliable it would be. I still passed.

Yup. The ICE engine reliability issue is more or less solved. I have built hotrodded engines in my garage that are still going strong at 275,000 miles. The real issue is that tesla reinvented the wheel with everything else too. Other solved problems like rustproofing, doorseals, and component access were overlooked for technology adoption. I admire the bold move, but it was not one destined for reliability. At the end of the day, the tesla is more complex, even in the drivetrain, than my honda civic, and costs quite a lot more, even under ideal conditions.

Sorry, how is the Tesla more complex in the drive train than a Honda Civic? The sheer number of moving parts in the Civic makes your argument highly questionable...

Don't they crack down on parts suppliers? Why can't they operate a warehouse and keep spare parts for all their loyal, early adopter customers?

You haven't seen any recent Mercedes Benz then. Full of electronics, if something breaks up, you're screwed.

Only the gearbox (automatic) will cost you not less than 8000€.

ECU fails? Add 5000€

> You haven't seen any recent Mercedes Benz then. Full of electronics

I had to dump an 09 VW GTI (I'm in the US) about four years ago with only 60K miles on it. The ABS computer failed; a $4k repair.

As a side note I traded it for a new 2016 Jetta Sport; which was the worst car I ever had, and the last VW I'll ever buy.

I traded the Jetta for a 2019 Hyundai Kona which I like but you can't drive it with the forward collision system engaged. I had always shut that off from day 1.... except a month ago I didn't and that sucker SLAMMED on the brakes when I was lane merging during a busy time--I was Not being aggressive just assertive. Only by luck no one slammed into the back of me. I can't imagine Anyone trusting their lives to a self-driving car.. it makes no logical sense to do that!

It certainly seems to be accentuated by the difficulty in obtaining both parts and schematics for a Tesla.

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